track car making saxo 3.0 V6

4th October 2010, 18:41

Hi there. after a year of owning my saxo after the new year i get a nice sensible diesiel for my daily driver. However my saxo is staying with me as a potential track car. I plan on taking out the measily 1.6 8v engine and replace it with a 406 3.0 v6 engine. i would also use the suspension parts and 4 pot calipers to sharp up the breaking and handling . i was wondering if the 406 engine would be a "plug and play" setup or will it need completly cutting at the chais and rewiring etc etc. i plan on doing all the work myself with my girlfriends dad who is a mecanic as ill be sponcering his bussiness on the side of the car. Just wondered if anyone had done it tbh.

Currently i plan on

3.0 v6 engine and gearbox
Oil cooler
Diesiel radiator of some kind
NO heater matrix or thermostat
custom enclosed air filter with dual cold air feeds from the foglights
some form of competition manifold and sports exhaust
fully stripped interior
Fibreglass bonnet and boot and front wings
Plastic polycarb rear windows
lower brace
15" alloys with track tyres
4 pot 406 calipers with fast road pads and disks (help on the make)
standard rear beam with mignex pads and disks
fully stripped but leaving in the dash

any input will be greatly appreciated

4th October 2010, 18:45

hmm doubt its dont before but cant imagine it being a very good track car the engine would be heavy and power wont be easy to put down. more of a drag car imo.
the wiring sides of it i dont have a clue but if you do have to fuck about like that your better of just turboing your current engine or something would be more than enough fun on a track.
depends what you want really. id say the v6 is impratical but different never heard of it done before tbh

4th October 2010, 18:48

No way will it be plug and play.

Even a 2.0L isnt plug in and play.

will be very front heavy.

My advice, stop before you even think about buying parts and work on a vts engine either NA or boosted

4th October 2010, 18:48

Too much work for the end result. it will be too nose heavy and will struggle to get the power down. People have done these kind of mods but with Honda engines. you need to basicly rebuild the front end to make it all fit! just buy an s2000 and have done with it. Unless you want to drag strip it... then maybe but will still cost a fortune and not be as good as other standard cars out there.

4th October 2010, 18:48

i basically want over 200bhp. i would use it for everything, santa pod, tracks, overtaking skylines, etc etc yet i want half decent handling around corners, any ideas on how to make it handle well? i really cant be bothered to put it in the back tbh

4th October 2010, 18:49

any ideas on a good engine to use? that wont involve to much rewiring?

4th October 2010, 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxo0pko0xx

any ideas on a good engine to use? That wont involve to much rewiring?

vts/gti

4th October 2010, 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxo0pko0xx

i basically want over 200bhp. i would use it for everything, santa pod, tracks, overtaking skylines, etc etc yet i want half decent handling around corners, any ideas on how to make it handle well? i really cant be bothered to put it in the back tbh

tbh mate dont count me on this but i bet people have had 200 bhp out of the 8valve let alone the 16v

4th October 2010, 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxo0pko0xx

any ideas on a good engine to use? that wont involve to much rewiring?

turbo'd 16v

4th October 2010, 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

vts/gti

with a bit more power. my vtr hasnt been to far behind a gti in a mile long drag so doesnt seem powerful enough for me. azza_Vtr can confirm this.

and not cisting over 3k and needing a complete engine rebuild?

4th October 2010, 18:55

Would converting it to a rear engined/RWD make it better. I'm sure its been done before but would that make it too rear heavy and slippy, ie the rear always sliding out?

4th October 2010, 18:55

You can fit the Honda lump in the front with a space fram to hold it... Saxo180 was going to do one and there's been a few threads on here about it. Still more effort than it's worth. if you want big power, imo, it's a VTS lump with uprated internals, a big turbo and standalone ecu etc. Check out Simo's progress thread as this is what he's currently doing. To be honest though, you've really got to want to keep a saxo to do this as for the same money you will spend modding your engine etc, you could sell it and get something that'll be way faster for less money.

4th October 2010, 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxo0pko0xx

with a bit more power. my vtr hasnt been to far behind a gti in a mile long drag so doesnt seem powerful enough for me. azza_Vtr can confirm this.

and not cisting over 3k and needing a complete engine rebuild?

Who said anything about keeping it standard.

I doubt your vtr would keep near my vts engine

For 3K or less you WILL NOT get a 3.0L or 2.0L engine in there.

heck even a decent turbo set up for the 8v will cost alot

4th October 2010, 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fergie

Would converting it to a rear engined/RWD make it better. I'm sure its been done before but would that make it too rear heavy and slippy, ie the rear always sliding out?

would probably help but i can think of better ways to blow £2.5k tbh. im just wanting it for a bit of a laugh to blow away scoobies and shit tbh

4th October 2010, 18:57

Low boost set-up on a 16v will see 180 so with a bit more investment 200 will be fairly easy and driveable!

As for suspension and brakes then have a search on here, lots of very good set-ups...i'd recommend billie group N's and decent springs and a set of four pots

You'll retain all the natural handling characterisitics too as you'll be adding very little weight to the front end, with some relocation of battery, washer bottle etc will mean the difference is negligible

James

4th October 2010, 18:57

as said if you want good performance the easiest way possible its vts/gti
if you want something completely different but not so good permance do the v6

i did see a 106 gti for sale with the 306 gti engine in it dont know what sort of work they are.

4th October 2010, 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

Who said anything about keeping it standard.

I doubt your vtr would keep near my vts engine

i doubt it would

but then again youve got cams, flywheel,tbs all the usual shit people put on drags it to what 170bhp? instantly youve spent well over 3k to hit that figure when dropping a block as heavy as a elephant in can get me to over that anyway. Plus the front end pannels will be fibreglass anyway so surely that would count for something up front?

4th October 2010, 18:58

just get yourself a clio 182 and have done corey lol nah a gti with cams, bodies and head work could see 160bhp that would be fun for you if your cars starting to bore you.

4th October 2010, 19:00

Luthor1 (Andy who designed the Predator) also offers a single plug drive in drive out turbo set-up now for a very good price (£2.5k iirc), its a bolt on kit and he'll fit and map it for you, then you just need the suspension and brake upgrades (and get weightsaving), good for 180 but if your brought extra/better components 200+ will be an easy target...

James

4th October 2010, 19:01

range rover V8 can fit

4th October 2010, 19:01

As soon as you move away from a tu series engine your looking at a load of rewiring.

Would be no more difficult than fitting a gti6 engine would be, custom mounts, linkages, pedal box as the 406 is hydraulic rather than cable operated.

Suspension wouldnt fit, better off with custom springs to support the weight and have any chance of getting it to handld any where near dcent.

Saying all that im sure some has fitted one front and back of a c2

4th October 2010, 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxo0pko0xx

i doubt it would

but then again youve got cams, flywheel,tbs all the usual shit people put on drags it to what 170bhp? instantly youve spent well over 3k to hit that figure when dropping a block as heavy as a elephant in can get me to over that anyway. Plus the front end pannels will be fibreglass anyway so surely that would count for something up front?

198bhp.

And the engine fits in there first time.

You are dreaming if you think a big engine will just fit in even with fibrflass pannels. The chassis legs wont be firbeglass, nor will the driveshafts etc...

Which is what determines the space in the engine bay not the front wings which bolt on.

Space frame it - but will not be under the 3k figure you have

4th October 2010, 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxo0pko0xx

i doubt it would

but then again youve got cams, flywheel,tbs all the usual shit people put on drags it to what 170bhp? instantly youve spent well over 3k to hit that figure when dropping a block as heavy as a elephant in can get me to over that anyway. Plus the front end pannels will be fibreglass anyway so surely that would count for something up front?

Guessing you've never picked up a wing...their made from tin foil...maybe weigh 5 to 7 kg's in metal, would be lucky to get much lighter than 5 in fibreglass...

The V6 would easily weigh twice that of a VTS engine!

James

4th October 2010, 19:03

get on ebay/pistonheads 280bhp c20let novas is where its at for cheap and rapid cars or 1.8 vvc metros, v6 engined 205s but all manily straight line power

4th October 2010, 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

198bhp.

And the engine fits in there first time.

You are dreaming if you think a big engine will just fit in even with fibrflass pannels. The chassis legs wont be firbeglass, nor will the driveshafts etc...

Which is what determines the space in the engine bay not the front wings which bolt on.

Space frame it - but will not be under the 3k figure you have

have you ever looked at a 406coupe v6 engine?
Its actualy not that much bigger than a gti6 engine and doesnt way that much more.

4th October 2010, 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by swampy

have you ever looked at a 406coupe v6 engine?
Its actualy not that much bigger than a gti6 engine and doesnt way that much more.

Yes as colin was ramming them into 306s a few years ago (and that was tight)

Its still going to need extensive modification to the engine bay to get it to sit in.

The GTi-6/xsara engine doesnt fit in to easliy as it is.

When someones saying they want big power for less than 3k but are talking about putting an engine in which requires alot of things that are not simple 'bolt in/bolt on' its often ends in a pile of parts for sale on ebay at rock bottom prices.

4th October 2010, 19:24

You are potentially creating a land barge rather than a road rocket.

It may work if you make it mid engined.

Track work is also about nimbleness rather than all out power.

4th October 2010, 19:36

These threads make me cringe.

5th October 2010, 10:46

It simply would not fit in the enginebay without serious work. Engine mounts are easy but the problem is going to be clearance at the front

5th October 2010, 12:56

i think you should do it, so we can see the engine die from constantly running below operating temp due to the lack of thermostat

5th October 2010, 15:16

what work are we talking about to make it fit. and what engine will see more power then a vts enginje but still be acceoptable to throw into a saxo bay without remouting all into the back on a spec frame. and im guessing the looming is diffrent by alot then? would the engine not fit if it was mounted cambelt side facing the front in a custom way?

5th October 2010, 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

It simply would not fit in the enginebay without serious work. Engine mounts are easy but the problem is going to be clearance at the front

as i have said before its not much bigger than an xu engine..
Fits in a 205 and 306 bay with no clearance issues...
So wouldnt be that much difficult than an xu conversion.
Search the net for the c2 v6! If it fits there it will fit a saxo
getting it around a corner is a different matter!

5th October 2010, 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul

These threads make me cringe.

dont read these threads then

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

Yes as colin was ramming them into 306s a few years ago (and that was tight)

Its still going to need extensive modification to the engine bay to get it to sit in.

The GTi-6/xsara engine doesnt fit in to easliy as it is.

When someones saying they want big power for less than 3k but are talking about putting an engine in which requires alot of things that are not simple 'bolt in/bolt on' its often ends in a pile of parts for sale on ebay at rock bottom prices.

i can see what your saying bud but putting a bigger engine in, if theres a way can be done for a gfew hundred quid more will prove more power then a bodied s as well as having room for extensive mods ontop

5th October 2010, 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by swampy

As soon as you move away from a tu series engine your looking at a load of rewiring.

Would be no more difficult than fitting a gti6 engine would be, custom mounts, linkages, pedal box as the 406 is hydraulic rather than cable operated.

Suspension wouldnt fit, better off with custom springs to support the weight and have any chance of getting it to handld any where near dcent.

Saying all that im sure some has fitted one front and back of a c2

surely just some good coilovers with some solid springs will be good enough for the weight of it?

5th October 2010, 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxo0pko0xx

what work are we talking about to make it fit. and what engine will see more power then a vts enginje but still be acceoptable to throw into a saxo bay without remouting all into the back on a spec frame. and im guessing the looming is diffrent by alot then? would the engine not fit if it was mounted cambelt side facing the front in a custom way?

2.0L but again still doesnt drop right in, and yes of course the wiring is different. Changing the way the engine mounts to that will make it RWD, you think you can do all this for under 3k?

5th October 2010, 15:43

fair point didnt think of the RWD thought :/ must be a way of doing it surely without popping the gearbox straight under the gearstick :/ and 2.0 what? 182 engines or 406 coupe?

5th October 2010, 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by swampy

as i have said before its not much bigger than an xu engine..
Fits in a 205 and 306 bay with no clearance issues...
So wouldnt be that much difficult than an xu conversion.
Search the net for the c2 v6! If it fits there it will fit a saxo
getting it around a corner is a different matter!

But it is bigger. Yes it just fits into a 205 but its a tight squeeze even then. The engine is taller than the XU and the saxo has less depth than a 205. The 205 still has sump clearance issues underneath. The saxo also has more of a curved bonnet, again not helping clearance.

5th October 2010, 16:57

like everyone is telling you this will be an expensive project wereas the vts/gti engines are fitting straight in without changing anything thus keeping th original car design so it actually handles not like theres a great stallion nailed to the bonnet. weighing up you costs you could or would have a very nice running vts engine no problems and would still be impressing people.

5th October 2010, 19:03

am sure a xsara vts conversion (167bhp standard) with cams, forced induction and chip would be fairly close to your 200bhp target and be under 3k.

scrappy near me could prob supply engine and running gear from front end of xsara for around 6-700 (providing a decent running unit is there for breaking), cams 300-350, chip around 200ish and decent forced induction 175 which adds up to under 1.5k so you got half you budget to allow for fitting it

am thinking about xsara vts engine myself

5th October 2010, 19:03

am sure a xsara vts conversion (167bhp standard) with cams, forced induction and chip would be fairly close to your 200bhp target and be under 3k.

scrappy near me could prob supply engine and running gear from front end of xsara for around 6-700 (providing a decent running unit is there for breaking), cams 300-350, chip around 200ish and decent forced induction 175 which adds up to under 1.5k so you got half you budget to allow for fitting it

am thinking about xsara vts engine myself

5th October 2010, 19:13

buy a mk2 golf - £300
Buy a mk3 golf vr6 - £600

Convert the subframes and wiring looms - free

Result? A 2.9l engine pushing 190bhp - 200bhp in a car that weighs a tad more than a saxo. Shit loads of fun and a hell of a lot less work than what you're thinking of doing.

Tom

Yes i am trying to convert everybody on this site to a mk2 golf

5th October 2010, 19:20

Forcd induction for £175?

I take it you mean the likes of a simota or bmc air filter?
Where the air is chanelld through the filter in to the tb?
Rather than forcd induction in the shape of a supercharger or turbo which would cost alot more than 3k!

5th October 2010, 19:42

oh my mistake yeah i thought something like a viper induction kit thing was forced induction and different to what you get with super or turbo charger - sorry for misleading post though still think with that style of induction kit and cams on a xsara vts lump would get his saxo close to 200bhp for under his budget all fitted and done

5th October 2010, 20:43

I'm thinking the Xsara VTS engine is definately the way forward mate!

5th October 2010, 20:45

16v turbo

5th October 2010, 22:24

Buy a 16v engine and add this: http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=256555

Sort out some decent suspension and brakes (£500 will get you Billie Group Ns and 4 pots if you look hard enough/have patience) and get on a track!

/thread

James

5th October 2010, 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azza-VTR

I'm thinking the Xsara VTS engine is definately the way forward mate!

Which still needs a fair amount of work to go in. Then we have to consider the BE box.

Saxos have been around years, the fact that alot of people run say a supercharged JP4 over an XU in them says something.

5th October 2010, 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by holdawayt

buy a mk2 golf - £300
Buy a mk3 golf vr6 - £600

Convert the subframes and wiring looms - free

Result? A 2.9l engine pushing 190bhp - 200bhp in a car that weighs a tad more than a saxo. Shit loads of fun and a hell of a lot less work than what you're thinking of doing.

Tom

Yes i am trying to convert everybody on this site to a mk2 golf

Mk2 VR6's aren't a great deal faster than a VTS.

That's from experience.

In regards to the OP's question, if you're wanting something different to put in, look into a Honda B series lump, it's been done before, so can be done, and will handle relatively, if not entirely the same. But as with all other non-TU engines, don't expect it to be cheap (not below your 2k budget anyway).

Best bet? 16v with mods. It's the commonly done thing for good reason.

9th October 2010, 11:53

Will seem easier just to buy a skyline or punto gt :/

9th October 2010, 11:56

I was considering a xasra vts engine tbh. However surely there is some issues? I mean surely it wouldn't drop straight in? And the loom
would need modifiying?

9th October 2010, 12:01

Ok Clio 182 engine?

9th October 2010, 12:41

havent bothered to read the whole thread, just dont get why everytime someone on here thinks of fitting an engine other than a vts they get shot down?
I know most the time, 99.99999% of the time, the people suggesting it are just dreaming and wont carry it through but there ist any support for the odd person that actually would. i say let them get on with it, saxo world is a bit boring as far as engine conversions go so someone needs to get cracking on some good ones.
at least with novas you see them getting 1600 16v, 2l 16v, 2l turbo, 2.5 v6, 3l v6 turbo and every one of them cars are quick in different ways.

9th October 2010, 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxo0pko0xx

I was considering a xasra vts engine tbh. However surely there is some issues? I mean surely it wouldn't drop straight in? And the loom
would need modifiying?

Why modify the loom?
Get a donor xsara and take the ecu and all the wiring from that.

9th October 2010, 13:52

sell your current car and use the 3k and the money you got for your car and buy a car that is already quick enough? saves all the hassle

9th October 2010, 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by williamsvts

havent bothered to read the whole thread, just dont get why everytime someone on here thinks of fitting an engine other than a vts they get shot down?
I know most the time, 99.99999% of the time, the people suggesting it are just dreaming and wont carry it through but there ist any support for the odd person that actually would. i say let them get on with it, saxo world is a bit boring as far as engine conversions go so someone needs to get cracking on some good ones.
at least with novas you see them getting 1600 16v, 2l 16v, 2l turbo, 2.5 v6, 3l v6 turbo and every one of them cars are quick in different ways.

because, afaik, with vauxhalls most engines don't need much work to fit. which is why you find lots of nova's with 2l turbos but none (if a few?) with lets say a 20v fiat engine.

its a common thing to do because its cost effective, does what it needs to and doesn't complicate things too much.

plus, like everyones said, you can stick the lump in there all you want if you get it to fit, but when something breaks i don't want to be the one fixing it

9th October 2010, 20:20

its not exactly plug and play with a 2l turbo or v6 in a nova.

what is cost effective? buying cams, exhausts, air filters, manifolds and mapping for 30hp in your saxo? thats not cost effective imo. if you want cost effective start with a turbo car and just get it remapped.

there is nothing at all cost effective about modifying a car so imo, that argument doesnt stand up.

if someone has an idea to fit a different engine into a car then i say they should be given some support to do it.

9th October 2010, 20:42

Turbo'd VTS engine will give you the best results mate, 200bhp isn't too hard to achieve either, makes for a very fast, responsive and well handling car that can beat a lot of more powerful / bigger cars on a track

10th October 2010, 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saxo_vtr

Turbo'd VTS engine will give you the best results mate, 200bhp isn't too hard to achieve either, makes for a very fast, responsive and well handling car that can beat a lot of more powerful / bigger cars on a track

thanks mate

as mentioned above before though. cost effectibe imo isnt spending over 4k turbo charging a saxo for say 230hp. may be quick but not something worth wasting on a track imo.
id tayjer get a sky line gtr and just throw a bigger turbo or something on it. thats more cost effective imo. i wanted a big engine because i feel you can get more for your money with say a v6/ inline 6 for your money then wasting time with 4 cylinder

10th October 2010, 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by williamsvts

its not exactly plug and play with a 2l turbo or v6 in a nova.

what is cost effective? buying cams, exhausts, air filters, manifolds and mapping for 30hp in your saxo? thats not cost effective imo. if you want cost effective start with a turbo car and just get it remapped.

there is nothing at all cost effective about modifying a car so imo, that argument doesnt stand up.

if someone has an idea to fit a different engine into a car then i say they should be given some support to do it.

thanks for suopport but as mentioned i dopnt want to strench the chasis legs another 4 inches or whatever. has to be whether or not its going to be worth it for the money or whether i use my spare dollar to invest in some large engined motor and do that up and bring it out to play once every couple of weeks say

10th October 2010, 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxo0pko0xx

thanks mate

as mentioned above before though. cost effectibe imo isnt spending over 4k turbo charging a saxo for say 230hp. may be quick but not something worth wasting on a track imo.
id tayjer get a sky line gtr and just throw a bigger turbo or something on it. thats more cost effective imo. i wanted a big engine because i feel you can get more for your money with say a v6/ inline 6 for your money then wasting time with 4 cylinder

Who said anything about £4k to turbo? That is basically the most you would pay, see below what is available:

http://www.cituninguk.com/ProductLis...s&car=Saxo+VTS

(Select "All Citroen" then "Turbocharging" at the bottom of the second drop down menu)

10th October 2010, 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by williamsvts

its not exactly plug and play with a 2l turbo or v6 in a nova.

what is cost effective? buying cams, exhausts, air filters, manifolds and mapping for 30hp in your saxo? thats not cost effective imo. if you want cost effective start with a turbo car and just get it remapped.

there is nothing at all cost effective about modifying a car so imo, that argument doesnt stand up.

if someone has an idea to fit a different engine into a car then i say they should be given some support to do it.

its probably a shit load easier than shoving a v6 under the bonnet of a saxo!

yes theres a guy that had 2 v6 engines in a c2 but aren't they a little fatter?

and well, its cheaper than trying to shove a great stonking v6 in and realising the cars just gonna go nowhere as its got all that POWAAAAAA but weighs more than a freight train. it'd be like sticking a truck engine in!

10th October 2010, 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxo0pko0xx

Will seem easier just to buy a skyline or punto gt :/

Bit of a difference there between the 2 cars there.

You mite want to reconsider your plans if money is tight since almost everything will need to be custom made, Also you will need a good bit more than 200hp to pass a skyline mate.

10th October 2010, 20:52

Punto gts are much cheaper mate and still wack some poke in. All needed doing is bigger turbo, cams, and maybe some mild mods land your wacking a good 200bhp without even lifting a finger

10th October 2010, 21:46

3l v6 saxo imo

or gti180 engine saxo

12th October 2010, 18:46

There is seriously no point in shoving a 3.0 in a little saxo

. I have a friend who prepares saxos for road rallying and he has told me time and time again "forget big power, stiffen it up and make it handle well as you will be able to carry more speed through a corner. With big power it will be stop, point and squirt on a track which wouldn't be much fun

. The biggest thrill is about carrying your speed through a corner but thats just imo.

Tom

13th October 2010, 09:16

what if he wants to build a drag car though?

13th October 2010, 09:35

buy my vts mate and mod that

if your wanting something fast for your money and you dont use it regularly, i would get a kit car of some sort or get an old impreza and mod that.

or get a mini like me lol

13th October 2010, 13:31

cool idea but going to very front end heavy

13th October 2010, 14:13

Having had the chance to drive/ passenger a v6sax I found that it made the front very very heavy and caused alot of over steer although this was a very basic set up Saxo

13th October 2010, 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barton1806

There is seriously no point in shoving a 3.0 in a little saxo

. I have a friend who prepares saxos for road rallying and he has told me time and time again "forget big power, stiffen it up and make it handle well as you will be able to carry more speed through a corner. With big power it will be stop, point and squirt on a track which wouldn't be much fun

. The biggest thrill is about carrying your speed through a corner but thats just imo.

Tom

Exactly!