Jenvey's/cams and Emissions?

15th November 2010, 09:30

Morning all!
I hope someone can help, we're running out of ideas..
A fellow member (bluenotesmileyp) has had his VTS in at my shop for a few weeks now, where on and off i have been trying to get the car through the emissions test for the MOT.
Althought his shouldnt matter, the car has a set of balanced Jenvey's, uprated cams and a few other generic mods.
Although the car drives o'k, it lacks a little bit of the grunt that i though it should have gained with the cam/body combo so i'm guessing that maybe down to a good tune.
Andy Simmonds of Predator ECU fame has been constantly remote mapping this with us with fine adjustments for a while in an effort to lower the CO content and Lambda to an acceptable level.
I have carried out literally every test to eliminate mechanical failure/wear/tune.
I wont list every test i have carried out with the associated results as this post will be unreadable, however a few basics include:
1) Comp. test - all even, producing actually over-factory results but good all the same.
2) Cam timing
3) Throttle balancing
4) Replacement Lambda sensor (this was due to an open heater circuit in the existing unit)
5) Fuel pressure test (no vac)
Etc etc....
I have found a few areas that have needed adjustment or repair but none have affected whats required. I have found: a sticking throttle plate, bad o2 sensor, adjusted the cam timing to lose some overlap, re-adjusted many areas of the map, found unequal header tube temps (i dont know whether to take any notice of this though..), recalibrated the LC-1, sealed the exhaust due to various leaks possibly contributing to the high Lambda reading. These are amongst other minor repairs i would have thought could affect the emissions content but needed doing all the same.
I have more than enough equipment here to carry out virtually any test aswell as a new emissions tester that we have been using to see results.
Unfortunately for me, there are no VTS/106 GTI specialists in the area and I am starting to run out of time as we are moving the business to another town. Fortunately for me Steve is a very understanding customer and appears to have infinate patience but naturally wants the car back to enjoy driving it.
Ideally i would like to have the car RR tuned or road-mapped by Andy to eliminate the map from the equation but its hard for it to be conveient for both me, the customer and Andy/whoever will map it.
So,

this is where i'm at, as mentioned i have tons more info that whats mentioned above, if anyone has any ideas or can point me towards someone who has experience with TunerStudio / VTS tuning i'd love a lead!
Owen

15th November 2010, 10:50

whats the spec of the car. uprated fuel pressure regulator? what make injectors, camshaft specs all would be useful...

15th November 2010, 11:24

where r u based ?

15th November 2010, 11:32

Hi,
I've got it all...The fpr is a stock item, Steve will chip in soon and give cam specs soon i think. The injectors are the second set of stock items. The lowest we can set the CO is around 2/3% before it starts to run poorly at idle. Lambda reaches 3.1 and sometimes undreadable if the fuelling is dropped too low. Spec that i know of consists:
Predator single plug
Cams (ph3 maybe?)
Jenvey ITB's - no socks
Supersprint 4branch
Straight through exhaust
Stock cat
Stock plugs and ignition
Atmospheric breather system

15th November 2010, 11:32

We're in Ramsgate, in Kent by the way :0)

15th November 2010, 12:12

Well I would have thought you would be near to maxed out on duty cycle of the standard injectors. It would be worth knowing what profile camshafts they are as you may get away with PH3's but if they are more lairy then you could run into problems..
I take it its being run on 98ron?

15th November 2010, 12:39

Hmm well what are the cams set to?

After I got mine mapped by NMS using the predator from Andy, mine is only just out on the co2 without an cat,

NMS changed a few things on the map during the mapping to get it down as it was really rich before that.

Sound to me the cams and map needs more tweaking maybe on a dyno.

15th November 2010, 12:42

Maybe worth got atspeed or someone for a mapping session they are on here, ring them to talk to coiln he could help more.

15th November 2010, 17:26

How new is the CAT? The ones you get from your motor factors are only good for an MOT or two. OEM CATs usually go much longer.

As a last resort, could you not unplug an injector and run it on 3 cylinders for the emissions test?

15th November 2010, 22:56

The cams are PH3s and the car is being run on 98ron. The cat that was/is on there had only done a couple of thousand miles and has sat idle for about 6 months before being fitted for MOT time. I have dropped a spare unused CAT off to try but I would've thought that the CAT that was fitted would have been capable of lowering the emissions enough to pass the MOT requirements. I am unsure if the new cat has been fitted and the emissions retested as I have been at university all day.

Ideally I would want it mapped but I was contemplated getting a refurbished J4/JP4 head with/without headwork carried out upon it and felt that getting the car mapped before this would be a waste of money. I assumed that it would be possible to drop the emission levels down enough to pass without an extensive remap? Was I incorrect in thinking this?

15th November 2010, 23:38

Hi Owen,

my surname is "Hammond" by the way

I did message you that I thought the thing to check next was the functionality of the CAT. The easy way to do this is to fit a bypass in its place and see how the emissions are affected.

Good luck!

Andy

16th November 2010, 00:34

Andy

He did say that to me, that is why I popped a new CAT over that I had spare. It would be nice if this 'fixed' the emission problem but I am dubious that it will due to the low mileage of the CAT that is currently attached..

Thank you for your help.

16th November 2010, 00:41

Can you not just use a different car for the emissions test?

16th November 2010, 01:06

None of the garages seem overly keen on 'passing' the emissions like that, although I have found a garage that will be able to wave the strict emissions test if I can prove that my engine is from a '91 or previous car.

16th November 2010, 08:02

Shame they didn't make that engine before 91 so that would be hard to do that, I know few lads how have done that with the old ford zetec engine have due to them been made before 91.

16th November 2010, 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndySAXO

Shame they didn't make that engine before 91 so that would be hard to do that, I know few lads how have done that with the old ford zetec engine have due to them been made before 91.

Yeah I know but it was a way they could 'wave' the strict emissions. I don't think they were expecting to see a pre-91 engine in there. There must be some way to get an MOT as essentially I have a car that I cannot use.

16th November 2010, 17:00

Mie now it was mapped by NMS got my MOT with a CAT, even without a cat it only just out,

It about the map on idle, not taking anything away from what andy dose as he very very good, but my car on his map on ilde ran very rich, NMS played around with it, and got it to run much leaner.

I dnt know how but they did, so might be worth having a session at atspeed or somewhere to get a map done can even get a map with the cat on, to pass an MOT then get a second map done without a cat?

Have both save on the laptop to swap over for MOT.

16th November 2010, 17:02

It appears it could be my only option but ideally I didn't want to get it mapped until I had a different head. Cheers for your input buddy.

16th November 2010, 17:42

Why do you want a different head?

I say stay with what you have got get it sorted now and use it,

16th November 2010, 17:44

The head, whilst in alright condition has done a fair few miles, I just wanted to refurbish it or have some head work done and have also toyed with the idea of high compression pistons.

16th November 2010, 17:50

bolt two cats together with a shortened bit of piping behind

16th November 2010, 18:11

Andy!
My bad, i had Simmonds in my pho e for ages until i questioned it the other day...
I'm not sure bolting two cats together is the absolute answer, i'd like to get to the root cause of the problem. Cat temps have to be quite high to operate efficiently in closed loop and i dont think the 2nd unit would reach operating temp.
To 'waive' the emissions test 'should' be too risky for an MOT station to carry out, its highly illegal and if the tester was worth his salt, would not do it if he had any integrity or self preservation.
To be fair the cat on the vehicle appears to have covered only a few miles, i have been away from the workshop for past two days so i'm definately going to get the replacement on to see if it alters.
IIRC the exit-remps from the existing cat were o'k if this makes any difference.

16th November 2010, 23:09

*exit-temps

17th November 2010, 11:12

two cats is not the ultimate answer but it may get the car past the mot. Lots of modern cars now have two cats so it can be made to work. This would gain your customer time to take it to get mapped properly
I think the car needs a map specific for the engine rather than a generic guess.

21st November 2010, 00:53

how about cataclean?
cleans out the cat and usually reduces emmisions!

my civic had the management light on, and poor performance at redline. turned out the cat was on its way(blocked). after using cataclean and an ecu reset it hasn't come back!

also used it on a bm 318is i had a few years back, was parked up for a good few years before and just wouldnt pass the emmisions! after using cataclean it past with flying colours!
only costs less than £15 and harmless to the engine so definately worth a try!

or the injectors could be blocked/dirty? not providing enough fuel which would make it less effective and increase emissions?

hope this helps!

21st November 2010, 09:19

For a start, personally id stick with a j4 setup, and you wont really see huge gains for your money going further with your spec than you have done.

As for emissions why not get just an hour on the r/r to see what can be done, get a few power runs and decide wether you want to get more power.

Thumbs up for Doing it properly and not just dodging mot tests.

23rd November 2010, 14:54

are these cats genuine citroen ones or cheapo after market --if so that probably the problem .#

scrap men will pay £40 for genuine saxo cat and £3 for non genuine one --that tells you how much active + expensive metal is in the fater market ones .
.
If you have ph3 + still no cat pass then close down the ex cam timing , that should do the trick,presuming the lambda is working correctly and it is mapped correctly

28th November 2010, 20:34

It was/is a brand new cheap cat, I thought it would be enough to pass the MOT, I've tried two cheap CATs now and no joy.

I think the exhaust timing is down a fair bit already, I will check it out thanks.

I will have to get it on the RR as soon as possible to get the map tweaked I think.