Kam vs Saxsport rolling road tests

26th January 2011, 21:11

I have now got hold of a Saxsport exhaust & a Kam racing system, i will fit both of them to my vts post the results.

Power
Noise
Fit
Design

I have a rolling road booked for 7th feb.

26th January 2011, 21:14

You'd of been better starting this thread on the 7th when you had results... Thread fail.

26th January 2011, 21:14

Are they both brand new?

26th January 2011, 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_P

You'd of been better starting this thread on the 7th when youhad results... Thread fail.

final edit :

Dave P thinks the thread is a fail.

so I am not going to bother posting the results, sorry

26th January 2011, 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathon5

final edit :

Dave P thinks the thread is a fail.

so I am not going to bother posting the results, sorry

Shame as I'd like to hear/see what you think about the two systems

26th January 2011, 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathon5

final edit :

Dave P thinks the thread is a fail.

so I am not going to bother posting the results, sorry

I'm sensing sarcasm here. It better fucking be lol.

Really interested to see the results through someone independent, as I'm sure everyone else is. Will allow others to make an informed purchase

26th January 2011, 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_P

You'd of been better starting this thread on the 7th when you had results... Thread fail.

You'd be better of living in England where you actually get an opinion....Life fail

No offence to anybody who doesn't live in England!

26th January 2011, 22:58

ignore the dick. sounds like a great idea. the best two systems on the market with a proper comparison. if the results are as detailed as i think they will be it should be stickied IMO as its prob the most asked question on here.

26th January 2011, 23:24

First, it was the big induction test and now this. Looking forward to see the results

26th January 2011, 23:48

I want pugsport involved too.

26th January 2011, 23:52

a saxsport is a pugsport for a saxo so results would be the same.

27th January 2011, 00:31

kamracings exhaust is guna be alot louder had one on my 16v s1 rallye and it was alot more raspy and louder than my 2"pugsport got a vid hear just pissin about wiv my mate filming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxdSOfdT1s0

27th January 2011, 10:30

we do offer the supersprint center silencer as an option. Worth it if you want it less offensive. If comparing the db then the one with the smaller backbox will always be the loudest, that being ours.
You will need to be careful on how you test the db though as engine and exhaust temperature massively affect the results.

27th January 2011, 10:50

great idea

I will keep an eye on this since I want a different exhaust soon

27th January 2011, 12:44

always good to find out. I was going to do a standard vs raceland vs btb VTS manifold test, but couldnt find any local rolling roads that were up for it.

28th January 2011, 23:50

ooo interesting

.... i have the saxsport 2" and i love it tbh

29th January 2011, 21:57

epic idea pal! roll on the 7th

30th January 2011, 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

we do offer the supersprint center silencer as an option. Worth it if you want it less offensive. If comparing the db then the one with the smaller backbox will always be the loudest, that being ours.
You will need to be careful on how you test the db though as engine and exhaust temperature massively affect the results.

Do you know the db of your exhaust at 5k, with and without silencer?

30th January 2011, 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saaamon

Do you know the db of your exhaust at 5k, with and without silencer?

Kam will be doing these tests soon, as they will be offering a 2 box custom system soon.

My mate is bringing his db tester ( he borrowing it from the environment department at the council)

30th January 2011, 19:28

Kam will be doing these tests soon, as they will be offering a 2 box custom system soon.

Sorry for the spam but just reading the thread whats a 2 box system?

30th January 2011, 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by joe333

Kam will be doing these tests soon, as they will be offering a 2 box custom system soon.

Sorry for the spam but just reading the thread whats a 2 box system?

Adding a centre silencer to drop the sound volume

At the moment it Is a single silencer system

30th January 2011, 19:33

Nice one!

30th January 2011, 19:57

kam racing definatly better

30th January 2011, 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeyC

kam racing definatly better

LOL what a tool..

there is no results to prove this and its done to personal taste, the saxports sounds a lot better.. VtSmith has one with a standard manifold and it bangs and spits flames, awesome exhuast

30th January 2011, 21:59

cant wait to find out,new new system so happy days,roll on the 7th

7th February 2011, 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrapyardcity

cant wait to find out,new new system so happy days,roll on the 7th

Today is the 7th

7th February 2011, 17:20

So is the thread a fail lolz?

Be interesting if not!

7th February 2011, 17:22

yer intrested in the result and graphs.

7th February 2011, 17:29

Updates?

7th February 2011, 17:32

Come onnn!!!

7th February 2011, 17:34

I will write it up in the next 30 mins.

7th February 2011, 17:35

<3 <3 <3

7th February 2011, 18:29

This is a long half a hour

7th February 2011, 19:23

looking forward to results, as im undecided on which system to buy.

7th February 2011, 19:32

saxsport... is much better then a kam, i made a mistake buying a kam over a saxsport. agree with moxy. they spit and bang like no other exhaust i have ever herd on a saxo/106....

7th February 2011, 19:34

This is my unbiased opinion, I do not have a company or product to promote. I just wanted to get the best setup for my track car.

Previous scenario, I had the car cammed in november & the results were not amazing the car was producing 143 BHP @ 6313 rpm which is a low revs peak power for a car fitted with 708's. No mnatter how the timing or mapping was set this was the best it did. We thought the exhaust was restricting the top end power as we expected the car to be making 145 - 150 bhp with the set up it had & higher up the rev range.

Setup in november :

Ambient Temp -7 deg c

Catcam 708's with custom remap
Manifold Ashley Competion 4-2-1
Exhaust Magnex With decat
Air filter Modified raceland with big Wolrace & modded slam panel

Max power 143 BHP @ 6313 rpm Raw Uncorrected figure

So I needed a new Exhaust :

So first off I went out & bought a Saxsport 2" race tail pipe:

Design :

This a really nice 2 piece sleeved decat exhaust system with a dummy cat (This is a pointless it just adds weight), the exhaust is made from thin walled stainless & has a real nice manifold connection design. It does not requre a gasket as the manifold connection end is rolled, the flange to bolt up to the manifold is also free to mount to any manifold as it spins. The bolt holes on my Ashley manifold not the same orientation as standard the ar at 45 degress so the Saxsport was easly to fit.

Noise :

The Exhaust when cold is not to loud, but very hollow & raspy sounding.

But after a bit of a thrash & it get hot , Fuck me it gets loud !!! PoP Pop, Bang Bang

The sound just becomes fucking annoying after a while, I really could not get on with the sound at all, it sounds like its blowing when its not.

Sound test results on an official calibrated track test meter.

93 dbA @ 4750 static test 0.5 meter from tail pipe @ 45 degrees this was done with the exhaust warm (not roasting)

The power run was done with no timing or mapping alterations.

147.29 bhp @ 7000 rpm correction factor was 1.03So we appear to have gained 4.29 bhp over the magnex

I also went out & got hold of a 2" Kam racing System

Design This is a nice lightweight 3 piece system, it has one sleeved piece & one clamped up piece. I needs a gasket to connect it to the manifold. The Manifold connection flange is also fixed , which posed a problem as it would not mate up to Ashley manifold as the are at different angles. So we had to chop & reweld it to make it mate up. It will be fine for a standard manifold . The Kam is also slightly less bendy than the saxo sport.

With a change to the manifold mounting arrangement (to be like the saxsport) Kam could be onto a winner here.

Noise:

Once again very hollow sounding & Raspy . But this system was slightly more vocal than the Saxsport from the off. Once again it can pop & bang on overrun. But it is a loud exhaust again.

95 dbA @ 4750 static test 0.5 meter from tail pipe @ 45 degrees this was done with the exhaust warm (not roasting).

The power run was done with no timing or mapping alterations.

147.41 bhp @ 7017 rpm correction factor was 1.03So we appear to have gained 4.41 bhp over the magnex

CONCLUSION :
Both Exhaust do offer an apparent power gain oven my last setup but there is not much in it realy. This pureley comes down to being a bit more freeflowing with cams in. The magnex has a restriction on the joint where it joins the decat pipe the diameter is only 42mm not 50mm. So a true 50mm Bore free flow system has sorted the problem.

But both of the saxsport & The Kam are way too loud for me to use on my local track &
i can also see you getting a tug of the police.

It will purely come down to your personal choice.

So We tried one more thing !!!!!
We added 2" freeflow 14" x 4" centerbox silencer to replace dummy cat on the saxsport.

result 84 DBA @ @4750 static

146.7 bhp @6990rpm

I think Kam are already looking at a silencer option for there system look forward to seeing the results

7th February 2011, 19:42

Very interesting

, the main problem i have is the police around my way..would you advise putting a sliencer in definatly ?? as i think the legal road limit is 85 DBA ?? i mat be wrong..

7th February 2011, 20:02

well done john!

any pictures of the mod on the saxsport?

7th February 2011, 20:13

yay! The lightest and the most powerful system for the saxo

There are little factors I believe help just get a smidge more power though theres not a lot in it at this level of tune...i wonder if there is a slightly higher gas speed with ours which accounts for the peak power rise.
We've been speaking with Jonathan about how we can take it further too. Always good to keep progressing the design if possible.

Kev

7th February 2011, 20:25

Yer both static test where without a middle box? A middle box should keep the noise down, and should tame any power, did you not test with a middle box as could struggle with track days at that noise level. My kamracing supersprint with middle box is 83dB.

But very good result and a good test both offer basically the same, So not too bad.

7th February 2011, 20:27

Both are true 50mm systems, I think the saxsport is only slightly smaller at the manifold end 49mm off the top of my head, but theres no constriction in either design further down the system...Its why the Magnex comes out quieter but strangled. I think more power would be got by swapping the manifold for a supersprint or raceland manifold, the supersprint with its smoothed internals offering the biggest gain.

7th February 2011, 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

Both are true 50mm systems, I think the saxsport is only slightly smaller at the manifold end 49mm off the top of my head, but theres no constriction in either design further down the system...Its why the Magnex comes out quieter but strangled.

im sure it could be opened up?

7th February 2011, 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexy_gt

im sure it could be opened up?

Not really as the gasket has to sit on the pipe. Not that it really matters for 99% of the people who will buy it as their car cannot get enough gases into the system to push either to their limits.

7th February 2011, 20:48

It appears that Gas speed is the key to the exhausts sucess or failure

This is taken from Pumaracing their exhaust sizing guide

The table assumes that the silencers are high efficiency items that reduce noise by virtue of good internal design rather than restrictive baffling which sadly is far too often the case. The table also assumes imperial tubing with 1/16" (1.6mm) wall thickness so the I/D in all cases will be 1/8" (3.2mm) smaller than the O/D. Obviously what the engine sees is the I/D so if you're using non standard tubing then you'll have to work back to I/D to find out what size you need.

System O/D
Inches System O/D MM Max Power Output BHP

1 5/8" 41.3mm 104
1 3/4" 44.5mm 122
1 7/8" 47.6mm 141
2" 50.8mm 162
2 1/8" 54.0mm 184
2 1/4" 57.1mm 208
2 3/8" 60.3mm 233
2 1/2" 63.5mm 260

7th February 2011, 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

yay! The lightest and the most powerful system for the saxo

There are little factors I believe help just get a smidge more power though theres not a lot in it at this level of tune...i wonder if there is a slightly higher gas speed with ours which accounts for the peak power rise.
We've been speaking with Jonathan about how we can take it further too. Always good to keep progressing the design if possible.

Kev

Has kamracing got any think new for 2011

7th February 2011, 21:14

We are looking at a lightweight mid silencer. Though we have just become the sole distributor for Supersprint's Citroen, Peugeot and Renault range so we may look at a stainless version of their mid silencer design as they will make it for us if we ask (and buy enough of them). Whatever we need to get funds together for development so it will take a month or two.

Kev

7th February 2011, 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

We are looking at a lightweight mid silencer. Though we have just become the sole distributor for Supersprint's Citroen, Peugeot and Renault range so we may look at a stainless version of their mid silencer design as they will make it for us if we ask (and buy enough of them). Whatever we need to get funds together for development so it will take a month or two.

Kev

Will it be a bolt in silencer, that can be easily unbolted for trackdays & replaced with a straight piece.

7th February 2011, 21:49

the middle silencer is more for track days, as your dB reading are loud anyway, some tracks might not let you run with that dB level.

7th February 2011, 21:52

great test

could do with video's to compare the sound of the 2 systems tho

7th February 2011, 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by -shuggles-

great test

could do with video's to compare the sound of the 2 systems tho

The vids were a total fail

, all you can hear is the sound of the mega loud cooling fan that i was stood next to.

I should have stood at the back

7th February 2011, 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathon5

Will it be a bolt in silencer, that can be easily unbolted for trackdays & replaced with a straight piece.

We were looking previously at making the front pipe of our design with a silencer so people would not have to swap the rear piece. I'd say most people would like the quieter version unless they are obsessed with finding the magic rasp. Those two parts are a sleeve fitment together.

7th February 2011, 22:16

is the supersprint just like the kam one?

7th February 2011, 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathon5

The vids were a total fail

, all you can hear is the sound of the mega loud cooling fan that i was stood next to.

I should have stood at the back

do you still have the exhausts? if you made 2 'drive by' videos to compare the sound then it would complete the thread and be worthy of being a sticky

8th February 2011, 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by -shuggles-

do you still have the exhausts? if you made 2 'drive by' videos to compare the sound then it would complete the thread and be worthy of being a sticky

This has been done by many many other people, just to save you searching here is a couple of YouTube links .

But remember each car you fit these to sound different, depending on how much gas you are putting through them. Vtr may sound different to a Vts

Kam sound driveby

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acEJk5GsL_Q

Saxsport

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRDapXA4Bmw

8th February 2011, 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by CitroenSport

is the supersprint just like the kam one?

The centre pipes are similar. We have not designed our own mid silencer to compare though...

8th February 2011, 18:08

john the static tests... was they recorded inside a garage as it will echo and may give a louder result?

8th February 2011, 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexy_gt

john the static tests... was they recorded inside a garage as it will echo and may give a louder result?

No, I made sure the statics were done outside well away from all obstacles .

If the sound bounces of a surface it can make it louder.

8th February 2011, 22:17

I had an ABP Magnex system (came with a straight through centre pipe rather than one with a silencer) on my VTR. When I switched it for a Piper exhaust which had a middle box, the throttle response seemed to improve. At WOT, I doubt there was any difference between the two, but during 'normal' driving, the car felt more lively/ responsive.

For that reason, and for volume considerations, I would only buy an aftermarket exhaust with a middle box. I'm pretty sure John from GMC explained the benefits of having a large expansion box as close to the front of the exhaust as possible - something to do with pulse tuning IIRC.

8th February 2011, 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeumH

I had an ABP Magnex system (came with a straight through centre pipe rather than one with a silencer) on my VTR. When I switched it for a Piper exhaust which had a middle box, the throttle response seemed to improve. At WOT, I doubt there was any difference between the two, but during 'normal' driving, the car felt more lively/ responsive.

For that reason, and for volume considerations, I would only buy an aftermarket exhaust with a middle box. I'm pretty sure John from GMC explained the benefits of having a large expansion box as close to the front of the exhaust as possible - something to do with pulse tuning IIRC.

Pulse tuning is done in the manifold. If the middle box is a straight through design it will have virtually no effect on the cars performance. Piper may run a smaller bore through the silencer to force gases into the material. This increases silencing performance, but you may find the smaller bore optimises the system at lower revs while restricting at high revs so limiting maximum performance gains. A good exhaust will keep the gas speed high, literally pulling the gases that are behind it and helping scavenge gases from the head.

12th February 2011, 12:43

can the kam racing back box bolt on the standard vtr centre box?

13th February 2011, 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bertyvtr

can the kam racing back box bolt on the standard vtr centre box?

yep

13th February 2011, 11:11

indeed it can. You can just buy the backbox on its own and it will bolt on with an olive clamp just like your standard box.

13th February 2011, 12:15

oh thats alright then

might have to invest it would be rediculously loud with the standard centre silence would it whats better standard or straight through middle pipe ?

13th February 2011, 12:45

edit: would it be loud with the standard centre silence in place ? as people say its very loud and whats better standard centre box or straight through

13th February 2011, 12:49

a stright through will be loud as hell had a supersprint race system on my rallye on idle not to bad but driving it was loud, now parry121 he bought my quiksilver and fitted the kam racing backbox off his saxo on it (had a decat xsi centre section with silencer) on idle it sounds mint not loud really and on the move its pretty nice. Put it this way it won't attrach attention of the po po, must say aswell the fittment was spot on best fitting backbox I've seen for a 106 sat in the recess perfect

13th February 2011, 13:39

oh ok what is a decat centre section as mines a mark 2 and i thought the cat was in the manifold ?

13th February 2011, 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bertyvtr

oh ok what is a decat centre section as mines a mark 2 and i thought the cat was in the manifold ?

Need to replace the manifold aswell so as to decat mk2.
Don't think there is a decat pipe for mk2 but I could be wrong.
Sure someone on here will know for definate.
Glad I've seen this thread.
Just bought a raceland 4-2-1 manifold and was going to order a straight through supersprint race pipe without mid box to fit to my 4" backbox but after reading this I figure it may be too loud for day to day use, correct me if I'm wrong.

13th February 2011, 21:08

thats what my concern is it being to loud for day to day use i just want a nice rasp when i want it lol

13th February 2011, 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathon5

This has been done by many many other people, just to save you searching here is a couple of YouTube links .

But remember each car you fit these to sound different, depending on how much gas you are putting through them. Vtr may sound different to a Vts

Kam sound driveby

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acEJk5GsL_Q

Saxsport

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRDapXA4Bmw

This is my Kamracing Soundfile with a decat, all my Ragazzon piping is about 50mm on the outside, so the internal bore is maybe about 46mm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKTme16eCzo

and in the first scene the cam is about 3 meters away from the car and zoomed in, also all my sounds and flyby's are done on a tarmac road between huge fields so there isn't any infrastructure which will reflect the sound to be louder, as most soundfiles & flyby's do!

Got my Kamracing about 1 Year and still happy that I bought it!

Greetz Robert

14th February 2011, 21:49

what do you rekon a vtr would sound like with just the kam racing back box everything else standard? just want a nice rasp when i want not to loud day to day use ?

16th February 2011, 18:41

16th February 2011, 20:13

its not going to be massively loud with the standard cat in place.

16th February 2011, 21:27

why is it called a cat? if the cats in the manifold not the centre box ? lol

16th February 2011, 22:25

er? because its a catalytic converter not a silencer??

24th February 2011, 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathon5

This is my unbiased opinion, I do not have a company or product to promote. I just wanted to get the best setup for my track car.

Previous scenario, I had the car cammed in november & the results were not amazing the car was producing 143 BHP @ 6313 rpm which is a low revs peak power for a car fitted with 708's. No mnatter how the timing or mapping was set this was the best it did. We thought the exhaust was restricting the top end power as we expected the car to be making 145 - 150 bhp with the set up it had & higher up the rev range.

Setup in november :

Ambient Temp -7 deg c

Catcam 708's with custom remap
Manifold Ashley Competion 4-2-1
Exhaust Magnex With decat
Air filter Modified raceland with big Wolrace & modded slam panel

Max power 143 BHP @ 6313 rpm Raw Uncorrected figure

So I needed a new Exhaust :

So first off I went out & bought a Saxsport 2" race tail pipe:

Design :

This a really nice 2 piece sleeved decat exhaust system with a dummy cat (This is a pointless it just adds weight), the exhaust is made from thin walled stainless & has a real nice manifold connection design. It does not requre a gasket as the manifold connection end is rolled, the flange to bolt up to the manifold is also free to mount to any manifold as it spins. The bolt holes on my Ashley manifold not the same orientation as standard the ar at 45 degress so the Saxsport was easly to fit.

Noise :

The Exhaust when cold is not to loud, but very hollow & raspy sounding.

But after a bit of a thrash & it get hot , Fuck me it gets loud !!! PoP Pop, Bang Bang

The sound just becomes fucking annoying after a while, I really could not get on with the sound at all, it sounds like its blowing when its not.

Sound test results on an official calibrated track test meter.

93 dbA @ 4750 static test 0.5 meter from tail pipe @ 45 degrees this was done with the exhaust warm (not roasting)

The power run was done with no timing or mapping alterations.

147.29 bhp @ 7000 rpm correction factor was 1.03So we appear to have gained 4.29 bhp over the magnex

I also went out & got hold of a 2" Kam racing System

Design This is a nice lightweight 3 piece system, it has one sleeved piece & one clamped up piece. I needs a gasket to connect it to the manifold. The Manifold connection flange is also fixed , which posed a problem as it would not mate up to Ashley manifold as the are at different angles. So we had to chop & reweld it to make it mate up. It will be fine for a standard manifold . The Kam is also slightly less bendy than the saxo sport.

With a change to the manifold mounting arrangement (to be like the saxsport) Kam could be onto a winner here.

Noise:

Once again very hollow sounding & Raspy . But this system was slightly more vocal than the Saxsport from the off. Once again it can pop & bang on overrun. But it is a loud exhaust again.

95 dbA @ 4750 static test 0.5 meter from tail pipe @ 45 degrees this was done with the exhaust warm (not roasting).

The power run was done with no timing or mapping alterations.

147.41 bhp @ 7017 rpm correction factor was 1.03So we appear to have gained 4.41 bhp over the magnex

CONCLUSION :
Both Exhaust do offer an apparent power gain oven my last setup but there is not much in it realy. This pureley comes down to being a bit more freeflowing with cams in. The magnex has a restriction on the joint where it joins the decat pipe the diameter is only 42mm not 50mm. So a true 50mm Bore free flow system has sorted the problem.

But both of the saxsport & The Kam are way too loud for me to use on my local track &
i can also see you getting a tug of the police.

It will purely come down to your personal choice.

So We tried one more thing !!!!!
We added 2" freeflow 14" x 4" centerbox silencer to replace dummy cat on the saxsport.

result 84 DBA @ @4750 static

146.7 bhp @6990rpm

I think Kam are already looking at a silencer option for there system look forward to seeing the results

did your magnex system have a middle box in it? and did you do this on the same set of rollers as the magnex and on the same day?

25th February 2011, 22:22

so do kam systems have a down pipe option too?

im building a stock hatch and looking for an alternative to the old chestnut of pugsport full system and twin tube down pipe ( i have to use std manifold)

would be cool to get something a bit different into the stock hatch!