gripper differentials

17th March 2011, 13:01

Well i got mine today and oh my word what a piece of artwork from an engineers point of view!!

Ill do a little review after its fitted as ill be driving 185bhp on standard diff
Shame i cannot compare to a quaife but if anyone wishes to lend me one haha!!

So far im massively impressed just in the quality of it

17th March 2011, 17:42

What sort of preload and ramp angles you go for?

17th March 2011, 17:55

John set it all up but he done it quite light to suit mainly back road use so i dunno atm im gonna double check tomorrow afternoon and confirm them all incase i need to reset it ever

Basically its all on the least aggressive without slipping its still higher than a quaife lol

17th March 2011, 18:01

Should be awesome!!!

I've read reviews on these and they sound superb! If I was going for a diff I'd go for one of these!

17th March 2011, 18:04

i think we need an "out of the plastic wrapping" picture....it does look lush though! sounds like a bit of a beast!

17th March 2011, 18:16

Jay i have one now aswell as one of the shaft with the 14 tooth final drive on lmao ill put them up in a bit

17th March 2011, 18:28

well I know fuck all about grippers... so if anyone can enlighten me then please do

All I can say about the quaife is I didn't like it when I drove Yates' on the road, it would torque steer quite aggressively. Not strongly, just quickly, which was a bit unsettling. Presumably grippers are even stronger, judging by the name? I can't think of anything more terrifying in a saxo with 185 hp on a potholed country road, with alex driving it

17th March 2011, 18:29

...oh and how much did it cost you alex?

17th March 2011, 18:38

roads by me arent that potholed ads but yea itll be a bit of an experience the first few times (im pretty sure ill pansy out a bit at first with the power)

they do torque steer a bit more yes but they dont loose traction which with 140odd ft/lb i think i might be struggling a bit on road tyres if im spirited its not gotta spin both up not just one like

and i payed (with discount as my dad used to race motocross with dave mac) 1020
they should be around 1200 quid
come with a final drive (of which you have a choice) and they look to be extreeeemely well built

17th March 2011, 18:46

You get to choose your final drive? That's awesome - what have you gone for?
That price is an eye waterer. Your car is going to bloody amazing though.

17th March 2011, 18:47

I've heard you do need to grip the wheel when driving at a fast pace on normal roads.

But they are definitely worth it, the way you can accelerate round corners verges on being silly! Will all depend on how aggressively it's setup.

Should be awesome with the TBd engine and a nice twisty track!

17th March 2011, 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

You get to choose your final drive? That's awesome - what have you gone for?
That price is an eye waterer. Your car is going to bloody amazing though.

yep custom straight cut ones so they whine a little haha
ive gone for 14/60 (1400 xsi) they do anything even custom longer ones for boost or silly short down to about 17/54 i think it was the smallest he could get on the diff)
price i think is worth it as the cars going to get a lot of summer use on sticky rubber (just got some cyclones to wrap in some) and ring trips ect aswell as track time i basically wanted it unbreakable

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

I've heard you do need to grip the wheel when driving at a fast pace on normal roads.

But they are definitely worth it, the way you can accelerate round corners verges on being silly! Will all depend on how aggressively it's setup.

Should be awesome with the TBd engine and a nice twisty track!

my stuff is all aimed at twisties the lanes by me ive had spinning in 3rd at about 85mph on my gti box as it came up the power so i deffo needed more in the diff so this should help a LOT!

as said mines quite mild but if i decide to go higher then i just need to get adjust it maybe get the harder springs (theres 2 or 4 different sets i have 50ft/lbs ones) so on its softest will be my little write up but i think i may get another with 120ft/lbs when i get my 205 built for the hills as they bite in a lot harder and launch better

17th March 2011, 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

well I know fuck all about grippers... so if anyone can enlighten me then please do

All I can say about the quaife is I didn't like it when I drove Yates' on the road, it would torque steer quite aggressively. Not strongly, just quickly, which was a bit unsettling. Presumably grippers are even stronger, judging by the name? I can't think of anything more terrifying in a saxo with 185 hp on a potholed country road, with alex driving it

Its a plate diff as far as I'm aware. Much better than the quaife as the diff works even if one wheel is off the ground. Should be fun!

17th March 2011, 19:49

i am poor and run a quaife. ive seen wheelspin at 70 with it. not sure if it was one wheel, im sure it was.

also 1st time driving in the wet i almost kerbed it. did not expect it to drag me across the road when the wheels lit up

enjoy your new bit

17th March 2011, 20:22

Remember to keep a good hold of the steering wheel when driving.

My 106 has a Gripper LSD, the Saxo will be getting a Quaife.

17th March 2011, 20:38

Keep away from them bastard kerbs!

Nice purchase though fella.

17th March 2011, 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

Its a plate diff as far as I'm aware. Much better than the quaife as the diff works even if one wheel is off the ground. Should be fun!

Indeed it is a plate diff

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexy_gt

i am poor and run a quaife. ive seen wheelspin at 70 with it. not sure if it was one wheel, im sure it was.

also 1st time driving in the wet i almost kerbed it. did not expect it to drag me across the road when the wheels lit up

enjoy your new bit

Yea im not planning on pushing hugely in the wet tbh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_P

Remember to keep a good hold of the steering wheel when driving.

My 106 has a Gripper LSD, the Saxo will be getting a Quaife.

I will keep hold ive also kept the pas to try and help out with keeping it straight

Quote:

Originally Posted by titchster

Keep away from them bastard kerbs!

Nice purchase though fella.

I plan to keep off kerbs on the road
On track maybe a little rumble isnt a bad thing lol!!

18th March 2011, 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

Its a plate diff as far as I'm aware. Much better than the quaife as the diff works even if one wheel is off the ground. Should be fun!

BETTER ??
that all down to type of usage --would not be my choice for a road car/ occasional track day car --a bit to aggresive +expensive for most people .
the big advantage if you are making a real track car and do not mind stripping and readjusting the plate tension every now and then, is the choice of final drive ratios available--but at a price
but that in itself doesn,t make the gap in the ratios in the box any better --
for full track car add a c/r gear kit to it as well, and gear it so max bhp rpm =around 120mph for n/a car at most--then you will never feel its labouring to keep it on the "boil"

for a rally car make max bhp rpm =100mph

lowering your gearing by 40% will give you the effect of 40% more bhp at wheels .as far as acceleration is concerned--so fitting the right gear ratios --will be just as effective as spending alot on getting more bhp ,in lap times (well not quite ) ,but its the first thing you should spend money on
yes you can have wheelspin at any speed --it will be both wheels at 70 mph + wet roads.
the quiafe will only unlock when one wheel is lifted if you back of the throttle ,so if its kerbs on a race track ==keep it under power and it will not unlock --just fly across them

18th March 2011, 10:26

Its only to agressive if you set it that way though

18th March 2011, 11:57

If it does not have more locking than a quiafe --then no point in fitting it. and more locking means more torque steer etc,
the turbo ford focus have quiafes fitted as std --not plate type .
I have used 3 different makes of plate difs ZF ,,gripper ,citreon sport ,over the years in ax/106/saxo and 2 types of gear type difs ap suretrack +the quiafe so i have had experience with both types of unit
I am not saying gripper is not a good make ,but I maintain it is not the best all round chioce for a road /occasional trak day car ,thats all

I would certainly suggest you increase castor angle to around 4-5degrees when using a wound up plate dif .
and if going to the cost of this unit go for the BE size splines in the dif+ same at drive flange endin the the hubs as well ,which then means new shafts of course--more grip/snatch is more strain on the rest of the transmission

18th March 2011, 16:41

John, the Quaife atb diff does not "lock" at all, it states that fact on Quaife's website. However I do agree a Quaife is more suitable to a road car that's also used on track.

18th March 2011, 16:59

Doesn't the straight cut teeth of the final drive mean it's slightly more efficient (lower transmission loss) though, albeit at the cost of longevity?

Interesting thread guys by the way.

18th March 2011, 17:53

I would say the benefit is more strength rather than efficiency though it might help marginally. You will get more noise though.

19th March 2011, 08:47

That lovely straight cut whine lol

19th March 2011, 09:58

will be interesting to see how loud it will be. I cannot wait for my whole gearbox to whine merrily away. In fact that reminds me that I need to make some calls!

22nd March 2011, 07:15

Ive got a semi good idea from going in colins rally sax a few months back
It wont be silly but will be noticeable

The box and diff were dropped off for fitting at the weekend should be on the car early april

22nd March 2011, 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexB

Ive got a semi good idea from going in colins rally sax a few months back
It wont be silly but will be noticeable

The box and diff were dropped off for fitting at the weekend should be on the car early april

Its normally alot louder than that, but we only drove it for a few miles so it wasnt warm, mine only whines coming down the revs.

My diffs loosened fuck loads as I use it on the road too much, need it tightening now.

22nd March 2011, 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_P

John, the Quaife atb diff does not "lock" at all, it states that fact on Quaife's website. However I do agree a Quaife is more suitable to a road car that's also used on track.

locking was probably a poor choice of words if we are being exact ,
but even on a plate dif you don,t want it to lock --just slip at a predetermined load ,which is what the quiafe does ,certainly you can wind a plate dif up so to all intents and purposes it is locked --,but thats not really what you want either as then it becomes zig -zaggy and hard to hold on to .
i,ve used both straight cut gears + helical gears and the power loss is very much the same ,put it this way
the power loss between a g/box being cold and hot is much more than the difference between straight +helical gears,the main difference is no side thrust on the gear box bearings or synchro hubs .
the original mr citroen had an answer --it is the chevron shaped gear tooth,just like the citreon badge --twice the tooth contact area and no side load --thats how he started off --making gears for water wheels to transfer power from wheel to line shafts to run weaving +spinning machines .but they didn,t run at very fast speeds ,but lots of torque

22nd March 2011, 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colin

Its normally alot louder than that, but we only drove it for a few miles so it wasnt warm, mine only whines coming down the revs.

My diffs loosened fuck loads as I use it on the road too much, need it tightening now.

Yours seems to be quite highly sprung though colin from what youve said about shafts ect its pretty rough on them

22nd March 2011, 18:43

god, they are expensive ent they, to be fair, as i am not trying to race for really so i have gone for the cheaper and easier option with the quaife ATB, as i just think they are too much, for a track car/ fast road.

but does look very nice, shame it will be hiden away.

in totally i payed 450 quid for my ATB diff and that is inculding fitting to the S1 crown wheel.

i think that money well spent in my eyes, but good luck

22nd March 2011, 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndySAXO

god, they are expensive ent they, to be fair, as i am not trying to race for really so i have gone for the cheaper and easier option with the quaife ATB, as i just think they are too much, for a track car/ fast road.

but does look very nice, shame it will be hiden away.

in totally i payed 450 quid for my ATB diff and that is inculding fitting to the S1 crown wheel.

i think that money well spent in my eyes, but good luck

S1 crown wheel, sexual!

22nd March 2011, 19:06

indeed matey, going to be fun going to the ring with the diff and s1 box

22nd March 2011, 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndySAXO

indeed matey, going to be fun going to the ring with the diff and s1 box

topping out at about 120/5 unless you have a crazy high rev limit

22nd March 2011, 20:08

the s1 box is surly 2 short for the ring? i was planning on using my s1 box at cadwell etc, but if i take it to the ring i will fit a vts box or 1400 xsi box (if i can get one)

22nd March 2011, 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndySAXO

god, they are expensive ent they, to be fair, as i am not trying to race for really so i have gone for the cheaper and easier option with the quaife ATB, as i just think they are too much, for a track car/ fast road.

but does look very nice, shame it will be hiden away.

in totally i payed 450 quid for my ATB diff and that is inculding fitting to the S1 crown wheel.

i think that money well spent in my eyes, but good luck

half of the cost is the final drive. They tend to be very expensive!

22nd March 2011, 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

topping out at about 120/5 unless you have a crazy high rev limit

Mine does 116mph on 14s with a 7700 limiter lol.

22nd March 2011, 20:52

Yer well have to see, dnt plan to go too hard at the ring, just want to do it, and thought why not.

The s1 box will be right for most tracks in the uk, ones like silverstone, and bigger tracks, then maybe bit short but most uk tracks it will be spot on, really works well with my engine IMO as mine is a very pesky power curve.

22nd March 2011, 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndySAXO

The s1 box will be right for most tracks in the uk, ones like silverstone, and bigger tracks, then maybe bit short but most uk tracks it will be spot on, really works well with my engine IMO as mine is a very pesky power curve.

you kidding? seen the size of the straights at silverstone? Im hitting over 120 on the short straight at brands let alone hanger straight etc...

The rev drops between gears are exactly the same as all the other sports boxes as the clusters dont change.

22nd March 2011, 21:13

I meant to silverstone is abit too long of a track for s1 box, and I know that, but it pick the revs back up faster as there less teeth on the FD, so it gets back to the peak power rpm faster, which helps and suits my car better.

22nd March 2011, 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndySAXO

I meant to silverstone is abit too long of a track for s1 box, and I know that, but it pick the revs back up faster as there less teeth on the FD, so it gets back to the peak power rpm faster, which helps and suits my car better.

The rev drops are the same so you will still be dropping back out of the powerband if its peaky. Which is why us NA boys have trouble with the MA boxes. In gear performance should be better in the powerband (as expected)

What cams are you using for it to be peaky anyway?

22nd March 2011, 21:40

Mine is very werid as I am only using ph3, but NMS move the cams and the power curve really never changed, what every they did it just seem to follow the same power line really, the peak power at 7.5k ish, but only drop power due to the soft cut limiter there, if I increased the rPm limit it would of had more peak power, NMS move the caming both ways, nothing seem to change the way the power line, my torque also dose peak til about 6k + and then stay very flat across to the soft cut limiter.

And I know it dose but due to the fact the FD has less teeth it get back into the peak power range faster, so it works better with my car, that all I am saying, I have use a vts and I did have a vtr box on it, not that I wanted it on there and the s1 box works the best, with the power and torque spread I have IMO.

22nd March 2011, 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark1311

the s1 box is surly 2 short for the ring? i was planning on using my s1 box at cadwell etc, but if i take it to the ring i will fit a vts box or 1400 xsi box (if i can get one)

Buy my boxs origonal final drive off me haha

Im tempted to get my fucked gti box rebuilt with it in as there seems to be a nice demand for stuff like that atm

1st April 2011, 11:25

what price for crown wheel + pinion + what are the teeth numbers
13 x59 or 14x 60

1st April 2011, 12:49

Its sold allready

16th April 2011, 00:42

Gripper diff's......... oops

16th April 2011, 08:06

Whos is that one?

Theres allways failiures on things and with no more than just a pic then its not really worrying as that is am ma diff but could be from a silly power boosted car

Update on this its allmost sorted for the car i took my time getting it shipped off to andy preston building it cause im skinted lol

21st April 2011, 23:18

just to remember that the CUP car used ...be whith plate ZF diff..(portuguese CUP)
and stock ma box with 13x59 final in a other cup version (italian cup).

i use the original box whith the 13x59 reinforced.

next season i will pass to BE4R ou BE3/5 ..the plate diff are a lot cheaper..and you end with a stronguer box...

and someone tell me why you nead a diff lock on track day??
in rally you cant pass whith out it!
you beter spend your money on a close ratio or even the BE box...OPINION!

www.bacciromano.com
www.rito.pt

BRUNO.

22nd April 2011, 09:38

Need a diff as i have 144ft/lb of torque it currently constantly spins inside front whilst cornering if i venture past around3/4 throttle

22nd April 2011, 10:11

Yer I think you still would of been better of with a Quaife ATB diff...

think the plated diff will be hardcore for what you want, but that totally up to you, to do what ever you want, that sort if diff is more a track race diff, nit a b road blast diff IMO.

22nd April 2011, 11:25

It all depends how its sprung andy

Mines quite a light sprung setup amd not that agressive

22nd April 2011, 11:38

Yer so Basiclly same as what the Quaife diff is, but Quaife is fit and for get, where as your will need looking at sometimes to check it.

So really I think the Quaife for what most people who do track days and fun drives need a Quaife ATB.

22nd April 2011, 14:18

The heavy sprung ones need checking yes

John mac says itll do 50-60k before it needs looking at
Im going to regularly do gear oil so i should be fine

22nd April 2011, 15:38

Out of interest what sort of oil grade does the gripper need Alexia?

22nd April 2011, 16:03

Good question ads ive forgot lol
its still not fitted so shall ask john next week haha

22nd April 2011, 23:07

Haha. I only asked because when I was looking into gearbox efficiency it turned out out that the 75W80 was good but the downside was it was pretty thin especially for atb's

23rd April 2011, 16:00

std "bV" oil is fine for atb --using thicker oil in an ma or be will lead to synchro,s crunching --they don,t like thick oil --

24th April 2011, 18:57

You need the correct oil with the right friction modifiers Ads. I use a type of Valvoline.

24th April 2011, 19:22

I was told by opie oil people that if the gearbox will be used under hard condition I.e. Track days mostly that a 75 90 is better because it will not thin out as much at higher temps, but cold is the sane as the 75 80 oil. As first number is the oil cold and second is hot.

Just what I was told, I am going with the 75 90, but this is for a gearbox with a ATB diff.

24th April 2011, 20:14

Always used Silkolene SILKTRAN SYN 5 75W-90 from opie in my quaife'd box and never had any problems.

No experience of the gripper, so not sure of oil requirements.

24th April 2011, 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colin

You need the correct oil with the right friction modifiers Ads. I use a type of Valvoline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

std "bV" oil is fine for atb --using thicker oil in an ma or be will lead to synchro,s crunching --they don,t like thick oil --

Cheers for the info guys!

26th May 2011, 09:17

Ads im now running a morris oils fully synthetic as supplied by gripper
10 quid a litre too so not bad

Update box is on mot is tomorrow and fcs ive got 2 track slots in the afternoon

Got a week of running the box in before the show

26th May 2011, 10:50

Have fun with it, even with a quiafe diff I am still getting use to that, but I love the way it pulls you out of a corner,

26th May 2011, 13:01

Yea it should be sweet

26th May 2011, 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexB

The heavy sprung ones need checking yes

John mac says itll do 50-60k before it needs looking at
Im going to regularly do gear oil so i should be fine

saying 50-60k is a guess at best ,I cannot think of any highly tuned saxo ,or any other track car that would ever cover 20k in 10 years racing
most races are 20-40miles at most +10events a year = 400mils.
I can say for sure that if a plate dif is doing much+ big power it will not last anything like the 50k .

26th May 2011, 14:56

Well we shall see how it does

If it needs rebuilding then ill get it done its not a huge issue tbh
car does around 6k a year including a trip to germany annually so im good for a bit

26th May 2011, 16:10

easy to check, one wheel on floor --torque wrench on other wheel in the air +see what reading on torque wrench is when it starts to slip--then check again after some mileage --as it wears the torque will drop off .
from ack to back testing i reckon a quiafe is same grip as a plate dif at 40lbs

27th May 2011, 07:05

This seems a bit more than that when swapping my wheels about but i only ever uses ratchet then torque on the floor
ill check it off the hub nut quick next time im doing the wheels

27th May 2011, 08:38

I would expect it to be at least 60 --more like 80 lbs,we used to run a plate dif for racing at 100lbs .
this is not definative as the ramp angles also effect how sudden the grip on a plate dif is ,but it is a guide for you tell when its getting time to replate it

27th May 2011, 09:54

I remember john saying 75lbs but that may be the springs in it and ive got 45 ramps rather thanthe race spec 60/30

28th May 2011, 22:10

well you know how to test it now

3rd June 2011, 23:14

I meant to earllier but i forgot my torque wrench

fail lol

Unfortunatly my review may have to wait a little as so far with this and my r888s fitted it definatly no longer llights up my inside front tyre but because of the grip now its making my clutCh the weak point in my transmission and it now slips and basically is duff

Once the paddle cllutch is sourced and fitted ill get on with testing

Cars next planned outing is july 1st at a llittle place in germany

4th June 2011, 10:13

My gripper was specc'd incorrectly by the retailer and was horrible. Sent it back to Dave Mac for a change. We've now got it in the car but haven't tested with aggression - I'll let you know what it's like after our open pitlane shakedown on sunday. I'm hoping it will be 1000% better!

4th June 2011, 18:09

mine was specced for me by john mac (daves lad and now owner of the buisness as daves semi retired) so hopefully itll be sweet

it feels pretty good below 3k just playing about