Gearbox Change Nightmare - SOS !

29th May 2011, 21:10

Just changed the clutch on my 1.1 1998 pile of garbage as it's now known.

This is the second time I've had the gearbox off. After I changed the original and clutch for a LUK one and got the box back on , the clutch was making a grinding / screeching noise when I pressed the clutch so I thought that the release bearing had falled off but it seemed to be on the fork as it should be. Just put the box back on and double checked the bearing was secure and cable tied the lever , struggled for 2 hours but got the box on and its still doing the same thing - AAAAARRRGGGHHHH !

Also and this is more worrying is that I changed the o/s driveshaft at the same time for a new one and this turns at idle speed in neutral - WTF !

Could there be a connection here as I'm fresh out of ideas and ready to scap the damn thing.

29th May 2011, 21:29

Erm, silly question, are you sure you have the pressure plate in the right way round?

When you say the driveshaft turns in neutral, does the car try and move or is it just the shaft that goes round? Is it a split shaft or a 1 piece? (probably a 1 piece but gotta check)

29th May 2011, 21:48

Cheers, yeah its a 1 piece. The cars still on axle stands and its only the drivers side rotating. Cant explain this at all !

The friciton plate was definately the right way round , I double checked this today. I had the raised section inside the pressure plate and it has the LUK logo stamped on it and also says Gearbox side.
The grinding /screeching noise occurs as I press the clutch down and it reaches it's biting point.

Does anything happen inside the gearbox as the clutch release bearing makes contact with the pressure plate ?

Totally lost on this one !

29th May 2011, 22:12

You will get one wheel slowly turning when the car is off the floor, its notheing to worry about.

29th May 2011, 22:24

hmmm i always thought the friction plate had "flywheel side" stamped on it !!!

30th May 2011, 00:52

Not the ones I've changed, but that was on a 306 rather than a 106. I just matched the orientation to the one that came out.

Raised section out sounds right to me though and yeah with both wheels off the ground you will get drag through the box even in neutral. I was just checking the shaft wasn't broken at the intermediate cv joint on the 2 piece one.

Does the noise only occur at the bite point or does it continue with the clutch engaged or disengaged? or in one direction (pedal up or down)?

Another bone question, you did refill the box with the right quantity of oil after you changed the driveshaft didn't you?

30th May 2011, 07:10

Cheers. Yeah its got 2 litres of fresh 75-80 in it (was starting to drip out when I tightened the filler bolt up)

About the noise (and man is it a bad grating noise). The engine idles in neutral fine , as normal. I start to press the clucth down slowly and when it reaches the point of contact (bearing to pressure plate fingers) it starts makes a very loud and unhealthy metallic grating /grinding noise which gets louder and more severe the further down I press the clutch.

I checked the bearing when I got the clutch kit and it span smoothly , it was clipped on the clutch fork both times I've fitted the box back.

It all points to the bearing but it was fine when i checked it and secured on the fork correctly so I'm completly stumped !

30th May 2011, 14:08

Hmmm, very odd. As you say, sounds like something is up with the bearing. I hate to say it but you're probably going to have to take it apart again. I would slide the box back and see if you can see any witness marks on the bearing faces or the pressure plate fingers (take pics). Might give you a clue as to whats going on. Other than a knackered bearing/box or incorrectly fitted bearing/clutch I can't think what might be causing it.

30th May 2011, 14:45

Cheers. Yeah third times a charm eh !

No doubt about it the Mother is gonna have to come off yet again. I'm gonna put the the original bearing back on and see if the noise stops then at least I have the culprit. The LUK bearings are diffrent to the one I removed , only a part of the bearing face turns so it would have to be flush. Also when I tested the bearing before fitting it span smoothly but not freely if that makes any sense. I'm wondering now if it is a duff bearing and as they have to go from still to 1500 rpm at idle so it should have no resistance really.
Almost got gearbox removal down to a fine art form now although getting it back is a headache but fathomed out that 2 piece of wood layed on wishbone to front chassis can really help with refitting.

Still at least I know how to change a clutch now !

Might buy a local saxo - £300 - same model 30,000 less miles and take all the good bits off this one for spares then scrap it.

30th May 2011, 16:50

Yup, normally lol!

When you get the bearing out, have a really good look over it and the face of the clutch and see if you can see any marks.

I think I know what you mean about the bearing. Is it along the lines of: if you flick it, it doesn't spin loads, but you can spin it easily with your fingers?
If so, I would say that's pretty normal for a new bearing.

30th May 2011, 20:14

Well the original one (national clutch I think) was a better design, the whole contact area span so even if the bearing was a little off it woild still spin but this LUK one was only a part of the bearing mating surface that moved. It moved round with finger pressure but dont think that it freely turned , maybe just cos it was new.

I'll have to check all this out when I have the box off - again ! but to be honest I can't see where the fault could be.

30th May 2011, 21:52

Hmm sounds odd! Defo pics when you get it back off chap.

31st May 2011, 17:41

I've heard that this can be gearbox main bearings, I've just changed clutch in mine and the same result again whirring/screetching sound something to do with the main bearings can get knocked out of alignment/place in my case my clutch cable snapped which may have caused this.

31st May 2011, 19:03

Maybe, although wouldn't that give obvious symptoms like being able to wiggle the input shaft side to side by hand?

31st May 2011, 20:34

Cheers

Aye I've got a bad feeling that it could be a gearbox issue although the input shaft had no play. It's a tricky one to call as there is no noise at idle and gears all engage which usually means gearbox is Ok.

The original reason for a clutch change was that after approx 2 miles driving in traffic there was a horrendous noise when lifting up the clutch to where it would bite (no noise/issues on depressing clutch). it was similar to the noise you hear with a dodgy starter motor or if you were trying to engage the gears without using the clutch. I put this down clutch issues but in light of these problems with a new clutch i'm wondering if it could be a gearbox issue.

Not sure though how a noise like this could come from the gearbox though as when you depress the clutch and the friction plate starts to disengage from the flywheel there is no power / drive now going to the gearbox - is that correct ?

Cheers

31st May 2011, 20:45

Can't remember but do these boxes have a mag plug in them somewhere? If it has, see if the plug is furry. That might point more towards a box issue.

31st May 2011, 21:23

Is that the magnetic oil drain plug ?

If so this did have shavings when I renewed the gearbox oil about 6 months ago but I've heard that this is normal after so many years of use. There was none on it when I drained it last week for the clutch change

5th June 2011, 13:02

Well now just swapped the new clutch I've just installed and put the original one back on. Still doing exactly the same very loud grinding /scraping noise when i depress the clutch pedal so looks like I can rule out the new clutch as causing the problem.
Must be a gearbox problem but i thought as you push the pedal down the input shaft comes off the power so dunno what is making the grinding noise.

I haven't put any gear linkages back on the car at the minute but cant see how that would cause this noise or am I wrong on that one.

Anyone ever experienced this before as I'm about to petrol bomb the swine !

Cheers for any advice !

5th June 2011, 15:16

if you havent put the linkages back on, then how do you know its not in gear?

might have knocked the lever and the box is in gear?

5th June 2011, 16:04

Sounds like it's something in the box unfortunately then

. Second hand boxes are relatively cheap though so not too bad I guess.

5th June 2011, 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by mechsman

Sounds like it's something in the box unfortunately then

. Second hand boxes are relatively cheap though so not too bad I guess.

Aye thats what I reckon. Thought something was wrong with the box before the clutch change maybe diff or syncromesh but after 2 different clutches and checked that the flywheel was in good nick and wasn't loose . I can only think that its the gearbox even though every symptom points to throw out bearing.

Does anything happen in the box when the clutch is pressed. As I understand it , the friction plate disengages from the flywheel so the plate and theinput shaft going through the plate stop rotating. Is that right ?

Fairy stumped on this - might just get a cheap box and fling it on !

11th June 2011, 18:34

Well got a second hand gearbox today. Put it on in record time (I'm now a semi pro) and the BLOODY noise is still there !

Absolutly stumped. The only things I have changed since the damn thing went up on axle stands is o/s drivershaft and the clutch.

This is now : -

1st Attempt - Full clutch change - The Noise appears ( figure the bearing has fell off in the process so I refit)

2nd Attempt - Make sure bearing is on properly and tie the pivot arm so it cant move. Noise there again

3rd Attempt - Replace original clutch thinking that I might have got a bad bearing with the new one. - Noise there

4th Attempt - Get used gearbox replaced today - all went well . Noise there exactly the same !

Fresh out of ideas even clutching at straws with : -

1/ Starter motor rubbing on flywheel when clutch pressed (dunno how this could happen didn't do it before)

2/ Flywheel warped slightly and rubbing on clutch plate with pedal pressed (didnt do it before so scratch that one)

3/ Something wrong with my new driveshaft (can see why this would make a noise when the clutch is pushed down)

4/ I've somehow moved something / done something wrong on the first gearbox change (this seems the most likely answer)

5/ Summit wrong with the clutch cable

6/ The cars Shite ! (that one also seems fairly likely at this point )

Cheers

3 weekends spent under this bag of spanners, still my liver's grateful !

11th June 2011, 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docbooze

5/ Summit wrong with the clutch cable

6/ The cars Shite ! (that one also seems fairly likely at this point )

3 weekends spent under this bag of spanners, still my liver's grateful !

I'd go with one of those two

Exactly the same ballache as im having, nearly

11th June 2011, 20:23

and i agree with the comment about the liver

11th June 2011, 23:07

Well i would be looking at the set up of the clutch cable mate, If your old clutch had worn out then some one or your self might have adjusted it to get the clutch working again.. if the able is not set right you can have a constant pressure on the fly wheel, this will make a load of noise and also move drive to your wheels.

Just my thoughts tho lol

11th June 2011, 23:24

Starter motor has a dowel in the centre bolt hole iirc, could be that it dropped out when you took it out to change the clutch m8

12th June 2011, 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tammy_VTS

Starter motor has a dowel in the centre bolt hole iirc, could be that it dropped out when you took it out to change the clutch m8

Does it look anything suspiciously like this???:

Pint glass only there to use as a guide to show side.

12th June 2011, 00:14

Ah bloody bollocks, wheres the edit button?

anyway, also meant to say: what effect would this have if it were missing?

12th June 2011, 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tammy_VTS

Starter motor has a dowel in the centre bolt hole iirc, could be that it dropped out when you took it out to change the clutch m8

Does it look anything suspiciously like this???:

Pint glass only there to use as a guide to show size.

12th June 2011, 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tammy_VTS

Starter motor has a dowel in the centre bolt hole iirc, could be that it dropped out when you took it out to change the clutch m8

Cheers

my starter didn't have one on to begin with but I know what you mean though.

12th June 2011, 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by mclovin9091

Does it look anything suspiciously like this???:

Pint glass only there to use as a guide to show size.

Think thats the spacer that goes in upper gearbox mount

Cheers

12th June 2011, 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dboyvts

Well i would be looking at the set up of the clutch cable mate, If your old clutch had worn out then some one or your self might have adjusted it to get the clutch working again.. if the able is not set right you can have a constant pressure on the fly wheel, this will make a load of noise and also move drive to your wheels.

Just my thoughts tho lol

This is what I'm thinking although the cable is adjusted right at the end of the cable so that the bite is low so cant see the Throwout Bearing being near the pressure plate.
I've adjusted the cable so that the noise appears only at the the very end of pedal travel. The cable however is missing about 2 inches of thread of the bottom where previous owner has cut it off for some reason (probably bottom adjuster nut was seized) but didn't have problems before and as stated even tried replacing old clutch kit and grinding /scraping noise was there.

The thing that stumps me is that it wasn't doing this before the first clutch change and I did everything by the book including using an alignment tool. Although I did push the clutch cable too far up the sleeve and it came of the hook on the pedal under the steering wheel. I've since hooked it back on so cant see how this would be causing this problem.

Cheers