Curious And Bored!!

27th June 2006, 14:30

Right then, If you had a VTS and did every mod possible to it despite funds so for example turbo'd runnin 26psi, upgraded cams, ECU re-map, high comp pistons, bored head, the works basically, what do reckon it would run @ im talkin just bhp??? thought it would be a bit of a topic as i was thinkin bout it I thought I would share my random thoughts with you guys!!
Oh and one more thing, is it possible to supercharge and turbo a saxo, i've seen it don on both a skyline r34 and a supra tt but seein as a saxo isn't really and comparison to either of these i just wondered if it was possible!!

cheers

Oli

27th June 2006, 14:33

My X girlfriend was Curious and Bored....Shes now a lemon

27th June 2006, 14:33

wouldnt know bout bhp, ratty would be your man for that, but yeah you can turbo and super charge any car if you have the cash

27th June 2006, 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leckie

My X girlfriend was Curious and Bored....Shes now a lemon

LMAO

:

27th June 2006, 14:34

supercharged and turbocharged has been done iirc but was in a diffrent country

it all depends on how its set up to what bhp you get

27th June 2006, 14:41

If you made the engine block and all the components out of kyptonite you could stuff shit loads of air in the cylinders and could get 1000's of horsepower + you could kill superman.

Within material engineering limits. I reckon around 400 - but kiss goodbye to reliability, your chassis, gearbox, and license

.

Problem is... increase in air will result in an increase in power which is an increase in heat, which will wear parts out. A 1.6 running to the absolute max (and well outside its design tolerance) is bound to go bang fairly quickly.

400 my answer

27th June 2006, 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by hesslevtr

supercharged and turbocharged has been done iirc but was in a diffrent country

REALLY!!! i'd love to c that!!

27th June 2006, 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by S34MER

REALLY!!! i'd love to c that!!

no i was wrong there isnt 1 well iv just done a search for a compound charged saxo and nothing came up though talk of a twin tiurbo vtr did from dpmotorsport

27th June 2006, 14:51

a shy 350 or less on the 1.6
i know of celica modded the hell with just over 400 but there are some with a 500+ but they have been rebored to 2.2

27th June 2006, 14:53

twin turbo??? core blimey!! bet that shifts! lol

27th June 2006, 14:55

not really due to the lag have a search you will find most of the stuff you need to know

27th June 2006, 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by hesslevtr

no i was wrong there isnt 1 well iv just done a search for a compound charged saxo and nothing came up though talk of a twin tiurbo vtr did from dpmotorsport

Think it was a 206 1.4 with a super charger and a turbo

27th June 2006, 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by hesslevtr

not really due to the lag have a search you will find most of the stuff you need to know

if there 2 small turbos then there wouldnt be that much lag

27th June 2006, 14:59

there wouldn't be much lag anyway if it had sequential turbo's would there???

27th June 2006, 15:04

Pretty complex to 'add' sequential turbo's to an engine as you need a regulator and host of other stuff to alter the exhaust flow between the smaller and larger turbos.

27th June 2006, 15:04

but why have 2 tho when 1 is good enough if set up right

you can have 1 for each cylinder if you really wanted thats 4 if you didnt know

27th June 2006, 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by hesslevtr

but why have 2 tho when 1 is good enough if set up right

you can have 1 for each cylinder if you really wanted thats 4 if you didnt know

In most cases a smaller turbo would give better for response (less lag) - due to less inertia in spooling the bloody thing up.

However at higher RPM it might not provide enough air therefore a larger turbo is required - which has a higher inertia so wont provide much boost at low rpm... so some engines... BMW's have started to adopt this... have two turbo's

small for low rpms and a big one for high rpms - it keeps the torque curve smooth

27th June 2006, 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by hesslevtr

but why have 2 tho when 1 is good enough if set up right

you can have 1 for each cylinder if you really wanted thats 4 if you didnt know

so there ya go!

27th June 2006, 15:59

only reason you would use 2 (turbo and supercharger) is if you had a massive turbo (e.g. one that wouldnt kick until say 6k on your standard engine) you would use the supercharger to supply the turbo so that it would kick lower down and have a massive pull (e.g. the boost would come in at say 4k instead of 6k)

max power wise id guess around the 400mark unless you used NOS in which case 500ish, but that would require large boost ie more than 2bar.

27th June 2006, 16:02

Moved to engines as this could be a good thread, and most of the kids wont come in here and ruin it

27th June 2006, 16:19

500bhp out of a 1.6valver is great! but the cost would be silly estimated cost of this ppl?? ill go for around 12-18K!!

what about Tbs!?? a turbod VTS with TBs & a supercharger is this possible??

& to add to the discussion could you dump it in the rear so to make modding the block easier & more space for it too!

Hell y not just make it a V4 engine!! LMBO!! cut & shut jobby!

27th June 2006, 17:21

suppose there would be nothing to stop two VTS engines being spiced together to create a V8 3.2

TVR did the same with two cerbera engines to create the engine for the speed 12

27th June 2006, 17:25

throttle bodied and turbo/supercharged has already been done. Bucky ran TB and turbo, Sybez is running supercharger and TB. Ratty is going to be running TB and turbo

27th June 2006, 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott

throttle bodied and turbo/supercharged has already been done. Bucky ran TB and turbo, Sybez is running supercharger and TB. Ratty is going to be running TB and turbo

oh my god that is pure SEX!! estimated price to turbo a TB saxo VTR???

ill start saving LOL!

but what i ment is to have throttle bodies & a turbo & a supercharger!!! or is that what you ment scott - that has been done already!

27th June 2006, 20:46

not as far as im aware have all 3 been done, would be expensive but its very do able, like DP engineering (dutch) with the 1.4 twin turbo and supercharged http://www.dp-engineering.nl/EN/

27th June 2006, 20:53

didnt know it was supercharged also!!

thats quality engineering!!!

27th June 2006, 22:11

there was a renualt 5 turbo 1.4 8v running 300bhp at the wheels with about 50psi of boost if i remember correctly!

as people have said, you can get some stupid figures out of an enigne, if you have the cash and materails to achieve it!

27th June 2006, 23:06

there was a ren5 runnin 500bhp in a fast car mag if i remember it had two engines in it a red one i think???

27th June 2006, 23:28

well this has proven to be quite a discussion point hasn't it, if anyone has any photo's of any of the cars mentioned please post them i would be very interested to see them! cheers Oli

28th June 2006, 00:17

a twin turbo supercharged 1.4 206??? jesus christ!!! i just got rid of my 1.4 206 as well...mind u it was fucked severly

28th June 2006, 09:44

so has it ever been done, I mean putting 2 engines in a saxo to make it a 3.2 v8. can u imagine? havin 2 engines in a saxo, one turbo'd the other supercharged and both fully modded to the dogs!! I love askin random questions u get the best answers!!!

28th June 2006, 11:33

seen twin engines being vts in front and rear, the rear is the best place to put one but if you were going to do it id put a bigger engine in then charge it

no need on a saxo for turbo and supercharger imo, its only a 1.6 so you tend to get the bets of everything from one or the other (although a turbo will always make more power than a s/c and thats fact)

28th June 2006, 11:39

true but u r more likely to get better acceleration from a s/c surely as it produces boost from the min ur foot touches the pedal, and there is no lag!!

28th June 2006, 11:42

Supercharger - no lag, progressive acceleration
Turbo - lag but massive boost once spooled up.

Turbo all the way.

28th June 2006, 12:00

could say that a supercharger has lag all the way through the rev range though as it will only peak boost at higher rev's where as once a turbo spools you have peak boost all the way

28th June 2006, 12:05

as said, you dont get boost from the second you put your foot down on a supercharger, a supercharger produces boost in a linear fashion e.g.

1k 2k 3k 4k 5k 6k 7k 8k
Supercharger: 0psi 2psi 3psi 5psi 7psi 9psi 11psi 14psi
Turbo: 0psi 2psi 7psi 14psi 14psi 14psi 14psi 14psi

so as you can see, you have an initial delay on the turbo but once it kicks it kicks and has full boost all the way to the rev limit (assuming you match the turbo correctly) Supercharger builts up boost as it goes on giving you a faster car the higher up the rev range, the turbo just kicks and goes (hence why turbos create more torque lower down) but they also break things faster because of this also.

28th June 2006, 14:58

anyone cosidered chemical treating the metal to make it stronger to take the power ie the block, pistons etc

28th June 2006, 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by infamousaidy

anyone cosidered chemical treating the metal to make it stronger to take the power ie the block, pistons etc

already done with most engineering practices man.

Aerospace industry treat just about every metal that is in/on an aircraft. Although they arnt chemically treated, they go through a series of heat treatments in order to adjust the crystaline structure of the metals which inturn modifies properties depending on the requirement.

Fuselage skins require low-crack propagation and corrosion resistance for instance and will be heat treated differently to the fuselage braces which require high tensile strength.

then of course there is matallic alloys, or even adopting the use of composites such as carbon fibre in certain circumstances

28th June 2006, 15:25

Just wondering,

What order would you do all the mods in? and how much would they roughly set you back? Not interested in turbo or sc tho, but curious to know how much tbs are. anyone?

28th June 2006, 16:01

I'd smack on the killer mod first of all...

induction kit.

I would (if i were to ever bother arsing around with my engine), put most of the prep work in first... so forged pistons, porting and polishing etc first. obviously not massive benefits on their own but then start adding the big stuff and it begins to pay off.

then whack on some neons.

28th June 2006, 16:04

Dont start being stupid Ad! This is a serious and good thread to read! No sarcasm. Just interested as i dont know much about engines. If you had cams and all that, would it be worth having an induction kit, as it doesnt really add much power if any at all

28th June 2006, 16:11

my apoligies yatesy - there was some sense in the previous post somewhere

I know very little about it too, i just understand the principles of engines, material sciences and fluid flows. so it does come to some use in this likkle forum

The induction kit would allow better flow through less pressure along the intake (thus more air). but benefits on our type of engines are hardly noticable.
enclosed rather than cold air feed or open will offer some performance enhancements. whereas as an open or open with a cold air feed is likely not to.

However when you start adding bigger mods for instance... cams, turbos, that sort of thing the less restricted flow offered by an induction kit begins to make sense.

28th June 2006, 16:21

You won't need an induction kit if you are going super or turbocharged, remember the "charged air" usually goes throught the cooler before entering the cylinders.

28th June 2006, 16:23

No apology required!

Just curious to know what some people would do, i mean if you have 3k or somethin to put into a vts engine what would you do?

28th June 2006, 16:46

ha ha at neons. adsayer you work with metals or a chemist or something?

bottom ends on saxos are fine for power, on charged cars its only the pistons that go and thats because of the heat, if you treated the tops of the pistons id dare say they would last, but with forgies and correct fueling they bottom end is indestructable.

28th June 2006, 16:59

Ratty, just the man, could you help me?

Just wondering what would be the best way to mod an engine from standard? Dont really know much about this, and if you have a clue on prices for each one that could help please. Not interested in turbo/sc tho

28th June 2006, 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratty

ha ha at neons. adsayer you work with metals or a chemist or something?

No dude - I'm doing a Masters in Aerospace Engineering so I tend to learn about...

Material Science
Structures
Thermodynamics
Fluid Dynamics
that sort of shite.
to name a few

Quote:

Originally Posted by andyt84

You won't need an induction kit if you are going super or turbocharged, remember the "charged air" usually goes throught the cooler before entering the cylinders.

True, but the filter is a rather largish restriction in the flow of air into the engine. It goes without saying that the air should go through an intercooler in order to maximise the benefits offered by a turbo.

Turbos spin at some truely daft rpm's (around 140,000 rpm - my father reckons there is some 200,000rpm turbos around but they arent commericial products). They can get proper hot which will heat any air passing through it - hot air bad excetera excetera...

28th June 2006, 17:09

Would anyone object to a Thread about 'the ultimate dream saxo' in terms of pure performance? And keeping it realistic so only using available parts, I can keep the front page updated based on peoples arguements for and against.

yes?

28th June 2006, 17:18

Matt for an answer need to know a budget, what are you looking for? Is it going to be a daily driver? Kept off road etc...

So many ways to mod the engine but if you have an end goal of turbo/supercharger then no point adding mega cams just now as it will negate some of the turbo/supercharger with them

28th June 2006, 18:12

air filter is very important on turbo and on a na car as well actually, as the air the turbo produces is sucked from the intake on the turbo so you need to route it so it gets cold air and also so the filter isnt a restrictive type as if it cannot get enough airflow it will starve the turbo.

28th June 2006, 19:18

Well say if you had 2/3k to spend on the engine Scott.

Kind of a daily driver! Just thinking i could play with the engine and use the money i save up when im away at sea, but i would drive it when im back, but i would like to take it on track and that

28th June 2006, 19:46

found this a while ago
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/705781

28th June 2006, 19:48

over 400 with nos

28th June 2006, 19:50

lol read it wrong thats torgue still i wouldnt grumble havin that much power

29th June 2006, 08:14

If i remember rightly that car runs on Aviation fuel....!

its mental!!

29th June 2006, 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by yate5y

Well say if you had 2/3k to spend on the engine Scott.

Kind of a daily driver! Just thinking i could play with the engine and use the money i save up when im away at sea, but i would drive it when im back, but i would like to take it on track and that

Ok, basic turbo at carworx is 3k ish, throttle bodies and a wild cam are also an option for that kind of money.

29th June 2006, 10:30

IMO Tbs would be better for day to day running too....

29th June 2006, 13:08

I dont really want to think about a turbo...YET!

I like the idea of TB's

Im thinking (bare in mind i dont have a clue!):

Enclosed Filter
Polished Head (what does this do? is it worth it?)
Forged Pistons (same as above!)
Manifold
Exhaust Decat
Cams
TB's
Remap

Would you do it in that order? What order would you do it in?
If i were to take it to a place like Carworx, could they do most of those mods at the same time? Would that be advisable? Or would you just go for one or two at a time? Is there anything ive missed off the list that you would consider?

29th June 2006, 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by adsayer

Would anyone object to a Thread about 'the ultimate dream saxo' in terms of pure performance? And keeping it realistic so only using available parts, I can keep the front page updated based on peoples arguements for and against.

yes?

Do it add, more people in here, the more i can pick up and learn about engine and mods!

29th June 2006, 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by yate5y

Enclosed Filter
Manifold
Exhaust Decat
Cams
Remap

Thats the start point for you. BUT if you want TB's then get it all done at the same time. IF your wanting to go with the TB's then standalone management is necessary, desirable would be wild cams, forged high compression pistons. Larger valve head would be good to but starts to get expensive.

Having the cams, exhaust, filter, manifold and remap should see you at 150ish at the fly. If you are serious about TB's though its best to have a plan before you start as you could save some money along the way instead of repeating things

29th June 2006, 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott

IF your wanting to go with the TB's then standalone management is necessary, desirable would be wild cams, forged high compression pistons. Larger valve head would be good to but starts to get expensive.

Altho at the moment its just ideas in my head, its a serious idea. The more help i get on this the better!

As i say im serious about it, what order would you do things? Would it be worth gettin the exhaust, manifold first, then TB's, standalone, cams, pistons and larger head? Would you know a rough price for the TB's, standalone, cams, pistons and head?

If all done at once, the a big jump in power, would it not result in faults with the car? I would of thought it may work out a bit cheaper if i do it all at once with the labour charge.

As ive said, id be willing to put 3k into the engine, would this be possible on that budget?

29th June 2006, 15:47

if you havent already read through most of the pages on www.gmcmotorsport.co.uk some really useful stuff to absorb on there

29th June 2006, 17:43

Il check it later mate, got footy training!

29th June 2006, 23:52

This is a great thread.

Out of curiosity, can we see your car please Scott?

You've obviously have alot fo knowlage, and are/ were a grease monkey at some point. So does your VTS reflect all this?

I know i've never seen it, and going on your enthusiasm for Saxo's, i bet it's an awsome car.

30th June 2006, 00:09

my vts looks nice but i haev been working 7 days since i got it so mechanical things havent taken place yet, cage being purchased soon and then the fun can begin properly

30th June 2006, 14:09

Were you a grease monkey Scott?

30th June 2006, 14:10

i seem to be more qualified than half the proper grease monkeys that work in garages these days :rolleyes: but i have no certificate to show for it

Always worked on the rules of: try it, if it breaks buy a new bit, if it works: great

30th June 2006, 18:29

Scott's saxo has never really been shown on here, i know when he first got it it was, but i was suprised to see it have a kit on and black wheels at FCS. It has potential and i hope you dont let us down!

Im reading more information on the engine mods and thanks to everyone who helped me! im sure i will have alot more questions should i get it all done

1st July 2006, 10:02

u've made me proud ppl, a good thread!

1st July 2006, 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott

i seem to be more qualified than half the proper grease monkeys that work in garages these days :rolleyes: but i have no certificate to show for it

Always worked on the rules of: try it, if it breaks buy a new bit, if it works: great

Thats what andy my mechanic says! if it breaks fix it, if not its all good...! its all just big boys lego really!! LOL

5th July 2006, 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott

my vts looks nice but i haev been working 7 days since i got it so mechanical things havent taken place yet, cage being purchased soon and then the fun can begin properly

When the Work gets started, be sure to make a Progress thread! :Y: