Won't start without throttle, also won't idle right. (Not icv)

1. m11ler Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Sep 2010 Kent Posts: 4908 Posi VTR, Eunos Roadster

   #1 14th February 2012, 16:24

   Right, this has been happening for a little while, but i've just been dealing with it tbh, as the car is by no means undriveable because of it.
   
   When i start the car, it needs throttle and then a few blips to keep the revs up before it will idle without cutting out.
   
   Also it hunts in traffic sometimes, and when coming to a stop, clutch down, the revs drop dramatically like its going to cut out.
   
   This is not being caused by the idle control valve, as i fitted a brand new one yesterday and its still exactly the same.
   
   Anyone have any ideas what this could be? Cheers.
2. Cam Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Nov 2010 Kent Posts: 8439 Gen 7 Celica 190.

   #2 14th February 2012, 16:27

   Have you reset it mate?
3. m11ler Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Sep 2010 Kent Posts: 4908 Posi VTR, Eunos Roadster

   #3 14th February 2012, 17:04

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by Cam Have you reset it mate?

   Yepp, did the whole ignition on and off 5 times thing lol
4. tomsmarty Established Member Joined: Apr 2010 Somerset Posts: 1746 Seat Leon Cupra R, Fourtrak offroader

   #4 15th February 2012, 14:08

   Mines doing the same, been doing it for a while. Only does it in the cold though, mostly at night. Spoke to my garage and they are going to try all the sensors to see if any have gone. Il let you know how mine turns out.

   1 user thanked this post: m11ler
5. m11ler Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Sep 2010 Kent Posts: 4908 Posi VTR, Eunos Roadster

   #5 15th February 2012, 14:09

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by tomsmarty Mines doing the same, been doing it for a while. Only does it in the cold though, mostly at night. Spoke to my garage and they are going to try all the sensors to see if any have gone. Il let you know how mine turns out.

   Awesome, cheers man
6. Wee_monkey1987 Regular Poster Joined: Sep 2011 Hertfordshire Posts: 250 2000 Saxo Woodland Green VTS, 2002 Mazda MX5

   #6 15th February 2012, 14:30

   might not just be idle speed control valve you could have a faulty crankshaft sensor not providing the ECU with engine rpm they'll also explain the poor start and lumpy idle, good way to test these is using an oscilliscope and you should get a signal like this:
   
   http://www.lanzo.se/auto/graphics/jag_inj2.gif
   
   although i think saxo's use a hall effect switch so you'll get a digital signal but you get the same sort of pattern
7. Wee_monkey1987 Regular Poster Joined: Sep 2011 Hertfordshire Posts: 250 2000 Saxo Woodland Green VTS, 2002 Mazda MX5

   #7 15th February 2012, 14:32

   also check the distance of the sensor from the flywheel and see if any teeth are damaged or missing on the flywheel, you should have one gap this gives you the spike seen in the signal
8. Matty_VTR Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Sep 2007 Darlington/Newcastle Posts: 2609 Saxo VTS / Twingo RS133

   #8 15th February 2012, 15:00

   You might want to try cleaning out your Throttle body? Even if you replaced the ICR the throttle body could be pitted with old from oil breather pipe causing it the behave this way. Sounds familiar to what mine was doing a while ago, I bought a new ICV but just cleaning out the throttle body fixed it and i didnt need to use the new ICV.

   1 user thanked this post: m11ler
9. m11ler Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Sep 2010 Kent Posts: 4908 Posi VTR, Eunos Roadster

   #9 15th February 2012, 15:13

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by Matty_VTR You might want to try cleaning out your Throttle body? Even if you replaced the ICR the throttle body could be pitted with old from oil breather pipe causing it the behave this way. Sounds familiar to what mine was doing a while ago, I bought a new ICV but just cleaning out the throttle body fixed it and i didnt need to use the new ICV.

   Cheers man, i'll give that a go aswell
10. user_20080 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Dec 2007 smurfland. Posts: 17346 Ex saxo owner.

    #10 15th February 2012, 19:11

    I`ve got the same problem,i`ve replaced the crank sensor as well as cleaning everything else.So i`d be interested to hear the outcome on this 1.
11. tomsmarty Established Member Joined: Apr 2010 Somerset Posts: 1746 Seat Leon Cupra R, Fourtrak offroader

    #11 16th February 2012, 11:39

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by stevo67 I`ve got the same problem,i`ve replaced the crank sensor as well as cleaning everything else.So i`d be interested to hear the outcome on this 1.

    Same! Iv been trying to work it out for a while. I changed the whole throttle body aswell which didnt make it better.
12. EwynSaxo Established Member Joined: Dec 2008 Penpedairheol/Cascade/Bargoed Posts: 2104 Furio R.I.P, onyx Gti, astra turbo

    #12 16th February 2012, 11:49

    I had this problem on my old furio replaced loads of parts and strangely enough fitted a new lambda sensor with a 421 mani and it stopped, at the time I had a few dynostics and it never once said anything about the lambda
13. user_29491 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2008 Lancs Posts: 4124 JP4S'd R.

    #13 16th February 2012, 11:55

    I have this problem too! - it is the ICV.. even though i bought one brand new aswell.. it still does it.
    
    So have to on/off ignition 7 times so it starts without throttle.. and then the idle doesn't drop low when pressing the clutch.
14. tomsmarty Established Member Joined: Apr 2010 Somerset Posts: 1746 Seat Leon Cupra R, Fourtrak offroader

    #14 16th February 2012, 11:59

    Mines only just started doing it since its got cold out. Im thinking its got to be one of the air sensors
15. Tom5190 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 Someones Bumhole Posts: 5721 Mk2 16v Desire

    #15 16th February 2012, 12:02

    Whats the crack with the ignition on off x amount of times?
    
    to rest mine i just turned the ignition on, opened the throttle fully for 2 seconds then let it off. turned ignition off then ran the car....
    
    Also miller i had this problem i didnt bother looking at it as i didnt get time tbh but strangly it dissapeared after the cams & map :s
16. user_46658 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Aug 2010 Little Mill, South Wales Posts: 7547 Mondeo ST TDCI Saxo VTS

    #16 16th February 2012, 12:04

    this reset your talking about? is it just ignition on and then straight off 7 times in a row?
17. user_29491 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2008 Lancs Posts: 4124 JP4S'd R.

    #17 16th February 2012, 12:10

    It's just what i've read on here, and it works for me.
    
    ignition to number 3 (wait for fuel to prime) then to 2-3 Start on the 7th.
    
    It's annoying.. but not as bad as cutting out..
18. BenM508 Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2011 Grantham/Lincolnshire Posts: 297 2002 Citroen Saxo Desire 1.1

    #18 16th February 2012, 12:26

    This has been happening to mine for a while, especially bad recently when its been -10 here in the morning, since the temperature has been above freezing its been better, but still the revs are eratic when you stop at lights etc
    
    Someone who used to be a mechanic said that it sounded like a lambda sensor problem, also when starting on colder mornings the starter would be very sluggish, but I believe my battery is okay since its warmed up and the starter is no longer sluggish, hopefully can shed some light on this issue
19. user_49404 Frequent Poster Joined: Dec 2010 Mid Wales Posts: 604 03 vtr

    #19 16th February 2012, 13:25

    similar problem, got a little earlier to start when I did my tappets though. Just had my car in for an mot, it failed for everything but emissions, so doubt my ones a dead lambda. Havent changed the crank sensor yet though.
20. user_20080 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Dec 2007 smurfland. Posts: 17346 Ex saxo owner.

    #20 16th February 2012, 16:18

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomsmarty Same! Iv been trying to work it out for a while. I changed the whole throttle body aswell which didnt make it better.

    I`ve changed the lambda & the crank sensor as well + the coil pack & map sensor lol.
21. tomsmarty Established Member Joined: Apr 2010 Somerset Posts: 1746 Seat Leon Cupra R, Fourtrak offroader

    #21 16th February 2012, 16:21

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by stevo67 I`ve changed the lambda & the crank sensor as well + the coil pack & map sensor lol.

    Im starting to think they just don't like the cold.
22. user_29491 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2008 Lancs Posts: 4124 JP4S'd R.

    #22 16th February 2012, 16:22

    Never had a problem for 3 years with my 8v engine! started first time every time lol!
    
    now 16v, problem problem problem
23. citroen_saxo_vtr Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Mar 2006 Norwich Posts: 2823 Vectra sri 2.6 v6

    #23 16th February 2012, 23:10

    I had this with my 16v and changed loooads, lambda seemed to have cured it for a month but it started again, turned out to be blocked fuel pipe and it had somehow fried the map sensor...... its starved of fuel dude.
24. user_49404 Frequent Poster Joined: Dec 2010 Mid Wales Posts: 604 03 vtr

    #24 17th February 2012, 17:08

    maybe some fuel treatment then?
25. BenM508 Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2011 Grantham/Lincolnshire Posts: 297 2002 Citroen Saxo Desire 1.1

    #25 17th February 2012, 19:45

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kmak577 maybe some fuel treatment then?

    I been meaning to get some of that, and see if it helps
    
    Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk
26. user_49404 Frequent Poster Joined: Dec 2010 Mid Wales Posts: 604 03 vtr

    #26 18th February 2012, 23:52

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BenM508 I been meaning to get some of that, and see if it helps Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk

    mind letting us know if it works?
27. BenM508 Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2011 Grantham/Lincolnshire Posts: 297 2002 Citroen Saxo Desire 1.1

    #27 19th February 2012, 01:11

    Will do
    
    Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk
28. tomsmarty Established Member Joined: Apr 2010 Somerset Posts: 1746 Seat Leon Cupra R, Fourtrak offroader

    #28 19th February 2012, 09:16

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kmak577 maybe some fuel treatment then?

    Iv been using Redex for the last few tanks and it hasn't done anything
29. billytalbott Established Member Joined: May 2009 Near Loughborough Posts: 2152 Mk2 Flat Arch

    #29 19th February 2012, 11:12

    I will add to the que of people... I have idling issues on my 1.1 saxo, only cuts out idles around 500-700 rpm when it's cold and it also hunts when it's cold but once it's warmed up it's perfect!
    
    I've replaced:
    -icv
    -water temp sensor
    
    But when I plug it into the scanner at work it comes up with icv faulty even though it has a new one on it! I think the next thing is to check the lambda is working proper!
30. user_49404 Frequent Poster Joined: Dec 2010 Mid Wales Posts: 604 03 vtr

    #30 19th February 2012, 12:00

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomsmarty Iv been using Redex for the last few tanks and it hasn't done anything

    
    thought redex was quite weak though, I mean't something along the 10k boost kind of lines
31. Granty312 Regular Poster Joined: Dec 2011 Radstock Posts: 352 Punto, Golf mk4, Clio RSI, Quicksilver & Saxo VTR

    #31 19th February 2012, 12:36

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by billytalbott I will add to the que of people... I have idling issues on my 1.1 saxo, only cuts out idles around 500-700 rpm when it's cold and it also hunts when it's cold but once it's warmed up it's perfect! I've replaced: -icv -water temp sensor But when I plug it into the scanner at work it comes up with icv faulty even though it has a new one on it! I think the next thing is to check the lambda is working proper!

    My 106 quicksilver had this problem, and the mechanic i used said it could of been any one of the sensors. Everytime i went into neutral the revs dropped & or when i put my clutch in. Then starting problems happened!
    The idling problem I was the little breather on top as i never had the pipe for it...as soon as i got all of that put on it was fine! I needed the pipe & the little box thing with it (My mechanical skills are shit, this is what my mechanic told me) it could be the tiniest crack / hole in the pipe or casing and that would affect it. Try going to the scrappy and getting a new one as that's what i did!
32. m11ler Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Sep 2010 Kent Posts: 4908 Posi VTR, Eunos Roadster

    #32 19th February 2012, 12:42

    Sprayed a fuck load of carb cleaner down the throttle body today and gave it a good clean.
    Took it for a drive and seems to idle a little better. Will start it up later when it's cooled right down to check if the starting issue is any better aswell.
    
    And Grant, what pipe are you on about lol? Might be me but i struggled to understand that ha
33. Granty312 Regular Poster Joined: Dec 2011 Radstock Posts: 352 Punto, Golf mk4, Clio RSI, Quicksilver & Saxo VTR

    #33 19th February 2012, 12:47

    probably me mate, i'm no good with cars lolol! I'll try find a picture because i have no idea! ahahah!
34. Granty312 Regular Poster Joined: Dec 2011 Radstock Posts: 352 Punto, Golf mk4, Clio RSI, Quicksilver & Saxo VTR

    #34 19th February 2012, 12:50

    http://www.106owners.co.uk/forums/sh...uicksilver-fan
    
    The hose with the little yellow band on it! I had to get the casing because mine was broken, and i never had that hose loool!

    1 user thanked this post: m11ler
35. m11ler Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Sep 2010 Kent Posts: 4908 Posi VTR, Eunos Roadster

    #35 19th February 2012, 13:41

    Ahh i see, i think thats the oil breather pipe. Somebody correct me if im wrong as im pretty clueless lol
36. Granty312 Regular Poster Joined: Dec 2011 Radstock Posts: 352 Punto, Golf mk4, Clio RSI, Quicksilver & Saxo VTR

    #36 19th February 2012, 13:46

    yeah might be? Idk, was something like that
37. user_49404 Frequent Poster Joined: Dec 2010 Mid Wales Posts: 604 03 vtr

    #37 19th February 2012, 14:03

    yes it is

    1 user thanked this post: m11ler
38. BenM508 Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2011 Grantham/Lincolnshire Posts: 297 2002 Citroen Saxo Desire 1.1

    #38 20th February 2012, 01:49

    How could the breather affect idle?
    
    Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk
39. tomsmarty Established Member Joined: Apr 2010 Somerset Posts: 1746 Seat Leon Cupra R, Fourtrak offroader

    #39 20th February 2012, 08:53

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Granty312 yeah might be? Idk, was something like that

    Thats what we went to the scrap yard for the other day mark
40. Granty312 Regular Poster Joined: Dec 2011 Radstock Posts: 352 Punto, Golf mk4, Clio RSI, Quicksilver & Saxo VTR

    #40 20th February 2012, 09:18

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BenM508 How could the breather affect idle? Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk

    Idk just thats what mine was. Im not a mechanic
41. Granty312 Regular Poster Joined: Dec 2011 Radstock Posts: 352 Punto, Golf mk4, Clio RSI, Quicksilver & Saxo VTR

    #41 20th February 2012, 09:18

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomsmarty Thats what we went to the scrap yard for the other day mark

    Yahyahyah but your part looked way different to mine! Thats why i thought it could of been different... Awkward loool
42. tomsmarty Established Member Joined: Apr 2010 Somerset Posts: 1746 Seat Leon Cupra R, Fourtrak offroader

    #42 20th February 2012, 09:39

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Granty312 Yahyahyah but your part looked way different to mine! Thats why i thought it could of been different... Awkward loool

    Haha different cars/ engine size plus your quicksilver was multi point injection and mine is single
43. Futurism Regular Poster Joined: Jul 2010 Stoke on Trent Posts: 433 Saxo 1.1i sx

    #43 20th February 2012, 11:33

    Check/ change your temprature sensor
44. user_46658 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Aug 2010 Little Mill, South Wales Posts: 7547 Mondeo ST TDCI Saxo VTS

    #44 20th February 2012, 12:16

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Futurism Check/ change your temprature sensor

    Check? how?
45. Futurism Regular Poster Joined: Jul 2010 Stoke on Trent Posts: 433 Saxo 1.1i sx

    #45 20th February 2012, 12:29

    I Read a guide on here a while back about it,
    
    Basically said if you unplugged it and nothing changed then it wasn't at fault,
    
    However I had a problem with mine starting in the cold had to rev it to stop it stalling, changed the blue temperature sensor made a massive difference. Wasn't that expensive either if I remember.
    
    I think the ecu takes the temperature reading from the sensor and uses this (amongst other things) to decide on the fuel mixture.
46. user_46658 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Aug 2010 Little Mill, South Wales Posts: 7547 Mondeo ST TDCI Saxo VTS

    #46 20th February 2012, 12:37

    Ah nice one, will be doing this then as mines a bitch to start when its cold, doesnt help the starter motor sticking and the alternator needing a change mind
47. user_20080 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Dec 2007 smurfland. Posts: 17346 Ex saxo owner.

    #47 20th February 2012, 15:19

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kmak577 maybe some fuel treatment then?

    Only a temporary fix for mine lol,it lasted for about week.
48. user_49404 Frequent Poster Joined: Dec 2010 Mid Wales Posts: 604 03 vtr

    #48 22nd February 2012, 10:34

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by stevo67 Only a temporary fix for mine lol,it lasted for about week.

    My next guess would be water in the tank....