car shaking/ clutch judder?

5th May 2012, 20:03

couple of days ago my car decided to start juddering in reverse (around the biting point on the clutch) would stop after picking a bit of speed up in reverse.
yesterday it did it really violent. can hear exhaust knocking, car shaking and juddering like hell. then it started doing it in 1st gear slightly. it got to the point when i got the car home i was scared to reverse the car as the car shook beyond belief. this morning iv found a digestive biscuit size patch on the drive under where the passenger side shaft goes into gearbox.
now i replaced the clutch about 3 weeks ago. so what could this judder be?
someone said rear/bottom engine mount. i tried shaking the engine by hand but i seem to move the car at the same time so would this indicate the mount is ok?
someone has said clutch release bearing. i hope not as i dont fancy taking the box off again after just 3 weeks.

any ideas?

5th May 2012, 20:52

just had the engine running. stuck it in 1st and it didnt judder, reverse juddered (i did this with the handbrake on btw). i leant up whilst doing it to see if i could see the engine and it seems to have a fair bit of movement/shake when i do this. but i can also hear a random knockling noise coming from the box so im still none the wiser. sound would indicate the bearing, but movement would indicate mount :/

5th May 2012, 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcjacko1987

just had the engine running. stuck it in 1st and it didnt judder, reverse juddered (i did this with the handbrake on btw). i leant up whilst doing it to see if i could see the engine and it seems to have a fair bit of movement/shake when i do this. but i can also hear a random knockling noise coming from the box so im still none the wiser. sound would indicate the bearing, but movement would indicate mount :/

this is exactly how my clutch went, it juddered in reverse, and sometimes at biting point going forward, one day it became really aggressive in a car park and when i got back to my car, my clutch had gone after a minute or so. The juddering started about two weeks previous, so i'd say its on its way out mate

5th May 2012, 21:04

sorry never read your top post, about you changing your clutch, although the way your describing it sounds exactly to the t, how mine went. shaking exhaust, violently shaking.

5th May 2012, 21:05

Also my top mount under ecu had gone at the same time as clutch?

5th May 2012, 21:06

i need to check the mounts, but just the bearing noise is worrying too.

5th May 2012, 21:06

Mine always judders in first and reverse pisses me off

5th May 2012, 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by tichy

Mine always judders in first and reverse pisses me off

lol. its not even a slight judder though. its really violent.

5th May 2012, 21:12

Exactly the same as mine mate no mater how much revs I put on other still does it its worse in reverse

5th May 2012, 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by tichy

Exactly the same as mine mate no mater how much revs I put on other still does it its worse in reverse

yup exactly this. when you get bite judder and you just add a few more revs to stop it usually.

well no matter how many revs you put on it now it just shudders violently.

7th May 2012, 14:40

still none the wiser. still cant move the engine by hand but when it does the judder at bite point it moves about like hell.
tbh though i can see it being the clutch. new clutch but a cheap one. i bet thats my problem, i fuckin told the missus this would happen but noooo get that one its cheaper and they say they never had complaints. well i hope she knows buy cheap buy twice lol.
gonna get a 2nd opinion later today or tomorrow so will wait until then before i take the box off..................again

7th May 2012, 20:56

Dear mcjacko1987.
The only reasons that a clutch will judder, is only for any of the following
1/ bent centre plate. This is easilly done if you struggled when putting the
gearbox, back in and if you didn,t quite managed to get the splines on the 1st
motion shaft on the gearbox, fully lined up with the splines on the clutch
centre plate ( centre plate is the one with the friction linning on either side ).
and you had to have 2 or 3 attempts at getting the gearbox back on. This
fault needs a new unbent centre plate fitting.
2/ When you renew any clutch on any car, it is absolutely imperative that you, deglaze the metal surface of the flywheel and also deglaze your brand
new pressure plate ( the one with diaphram spring fingers ) with a very very
coarse sanding disc, the type you would use in a hand grinder, as your brand
new pressure plate would have coated in an anti rust coating.
3/ If you contaminated the friction surfaces of your new centre plate, with
very dirty fingerprints or oil from dirty fingers, would also make the clutch
judder aswell.
Some pattern clutch kits like from GSF for example have a soft centre
plate linings. Meaning, that in the long term they wear out much quicker
aswell. Although this is not your problem now. this means that instead of
lasting 60k, they will only last 40k. Fitted correctly they will do the job,
perfectly.

What I would do now, is too remove the gearbox again. remove the
clutch, and deglaze it all, and renew the centre plate as you cannot tell,
just by looking at it to see if it is bent or not.
Any ONE of the above things will be the cause of a juddering clutch

I hope this helps, if need anymore info just stick in on the forum and I
will get back to you, I am at home all day everday, but I usually go on the
forum in the evenings in the summer.

All The Best.
Vince.

9th May 2012, 01:07

i have a 4 paddle clutch and mine does this well violently but doesnt slip at all and will happily pull away :/

9th May 2012, 01:17

Mine did this, new clutch

9th May 2012, 10:11

yeah it doesnt slip or anything. just judders like mad lol

29th May 2012, 17:42

just to update it was the clutch, had a lovely crack in it and the splines in the centre could be wobbled inside the clutch when its meant to be solid whilst also the release bearing was knackard too.
just put new clutch on and all is fine

30th May 2012, 20:18

Dear mcjacko1987.
Firstly, sorry for my late reply, But I am so chuffed you managed to get the
problem sorted out with your clutch, and I am so pleased for you well done.
All The Best.
Vince.

5th June 2012, 12:17

think this issue is worse than i thought.
yesterday whilst driving 1st and reverse started getting hard to select.
then after a while i could stick it in 1st at all (upon starting the car and going from neutral). dropping from 2nd it would select 1st ok.
reverse then decided i couldnt select it but it would crunch every time i tried.
then i started getting the judder again in reverse and in 1st (When i could select them) not as bad as last time but its starting out the same.
i know for a fact iv lost no gearbox oil. and i know for a fact its not because its a cheap clucth this time as iv stuck a brand new valeo in there.
im now thinking is it possibly the flywheel thats fucked and/or the gearboxs differential?
if this is the case im considering scrapping cos i cant be arsed no more with it.

5th June 2012, 15:07

When you did the engine conversion from furio to vtr, did you use the furio flywheel, or are you using a vtr one?

Also what mileage was the 1.4 gearbox when you bought it?

5th June 2012, 15:10

vtr flywheel with the vtr engine mate. and the 1.4 box is about 70k. its the 1.4 box from my old engine

5th June 2012, 15:20

It's quite hard to tell if the juddering came, went away when you fitted the new clutch then come back again

It's possible that the box might be knackered if it's on 70k, have you checked the gear linkages?

Bit of a long shot but you might have a loose bolt holding the gearbox on

5th June 2012, 15:28

funny you say that about the bolt as when i came to take off the cheap clutch the bottom bolt (near the flywheel sensor) was loose. so this time round i made sure all was tight solid.
i had a small feeling gears where stiff before the conversion. i stuck a vtr box on (that came with the engine) that was completely dead, lost all gears etc. so got my 1.4 box back and a cheap clutch. lasted a couple of 100 motorway miles then i got the judder. when i took the clutch off it was cracked.
this valeo one iv stuck in has been fine untill yesterday and its only been in a week. i could feel the judder slightly in as iv said 1st and reverse. then they where hard to select. could select 1st if i was downshifting though.
never had anything like this with the 1.4 engine, just a every slightly stiff gear selection.

5th June 2012, 15:46

There could be a reason why that bolt was loose in the first place like wrong bolt size or the threads fucked etc, so if that is the case then it could of wiggled its way loose again, which could of possibly fucked up the first clutch up, not the fact it was a cheap shitty one. If its still tight and the box and flywheel is fine then I'm stuck for ideas unfortunately

5th June 2012, 15:52

il check the bolt when it stops raining. someone ( who doesnt own a saxo) keeps telling me im going to keep having this problem cos im not using a vtr box. thats bull isnt it cos im sure loads of people run vtrs on 1.4 and 1.1 and vts boxs without problems

5th June 2012, 15:56

how could i tell if its flywheel?

5th June 2012, 16:04

Loads of people use 1.4 furio boxes on vtr's and vts's, so theres no issues on that side of it, unless if your fitting 1.4 clutches

5th June 2012, 16:06

na its vtr clutch on it lol. the only thing 1.4 is the box and driveshafts

5th June 2012, 16:14

Nah driveshafts shouldn't cause that lol, my best guess would be gear linkages, gearbox selector pin or a loose bolt on the gearbox tbh

5th June 2012, 16:20

just been out. that bolt is loose again and bottom of box moved away from engine about 5-10mm.
now i also know my gearbox mount is kinda on its way out so could this cause the bolt to keep coming loose. the thread on the bolt itself looks fine so it must be the thread in the engine block....if so how do i sort that?

5th June 2012, 16:31

If it is the thread in the engine block, then as far as I know you will either have to have the thread in the block re-threaded up to the next size up, which you will also have to have the gearbox thread re-threaded to match, and a matching bolt to fit, or it will have to be a new bottom end

Unless there's a product out there which you can fill the hole up with, and is strong enough to withstand re-threading and the weight of a gearbox

It's a bit of a shit one really mate, and I would check the clutch again if it did the same to this one as your last one

5th June 2012, 16:35

well i know the mount could do with replacing as its fairly battered (rubber peeling off etc) so could that be causing the bolt to wobble loose? or is it more than likely going to be the thread also? well with the clutch only being a week old i still have the warranty so il try and swap it.
sick of taking the box off and buying gearbox oil tbh lol

5th June 2012, 16:54

It might be the mount if that's knackered, I think if it was the thread inside the bottom end, you would struggle to tighten it up in the first place as it would probably keep on slipping as it gets tight

Only way to check really, would be to change the mount, drive it for a few miles, and check the bolt again, and if it does the same thing then it will probably be the thread

And no wonder your getting fed up of taking the box off, I bet you've taken the box off more times than u have had hot dinners lol

5th June 2012, 17:00

yup.since conversion its had vtr box on and off. 1.4 box on, cheap clutch the bearing went straight away, box off. replacement cheap clutch, violent judder box off cheap clutch cracked. valeo clutch now on. i must have spent about £80 on gearbox oil in total now

but yeah i see ya point with the bolt as i did get it on nice and tight without jumping. so hopefully threads fine. if not then thank god its the bottom bolt. if it comes too it i could buy a longer bolt and nut cos theres a hole on the bottom end on that bolt and when screwed in you can see the tip off the bolt poking threw. so i doubt the bottom end will need changing. just like you said re tap or buy a bigger bolt with nut

but il order a mount now, tighten bolt up, try that. just hope the slight judder iv got now is just due to the box being 5-10mm at an angle and NOT a cracked clutch, hopefully caught it early lol

5th June 2012, 17:30

Dear mcjacko1987.
Firstly, sorry for my late reply, haven,t been on the forum for a couple of
days.
Secondly I am so sorry you are still having problems with your clutch.
Thirdly," ALL " the bolts that secure your " flywheel " to the " crankshaft "
should be " Threadlocked " ( it usually is in a tiny plastic bottle, with a pink-
ish, fluid in.) That you need to put two " stripes " along the complete length
of all the threads at say 12 o,clock and 6 o,clock.
This needs to be done to all of the bolts, that hold your pressure plate to
the flywheel and it is advisable to do this to all of the bell housing bolts/nuts
aswell. as you don,t want them rattling loose. this stuff sets when the engine
gets " hot " for the first time when you first get the engine up to temperature.
Once the clutch was renewed, I would have thought that that should have been an end to your clutch problems to be honest.
But I hope this helps you though.
Vince.

5th June 2012, 17:33

il try the threadlock on the bellhousing bolts then thanks

7th June 2012, 09:55

changed gearbox mount and so far so gud

clutch doesnt seem damaged so i caught it in time

going to get some threadlock later today and stick that on the bolts just to be safe. phewwww