Improving performance?

8th August 2006, 16:17

Today I was speaking to GMC about the new throttle bodies they are developing unfortunately they wouldnt divulge too much information which is fair enough but they will be DIY and should prove a lot more affordable than the current system but without losing any of the benefits J.

Anyway to get the most of the throttle bodies I need some cams, this is a very confusing modification as there are so many opinions with varying approaches that even after spending hours reading up on all the various different combinations of cam, remaps, standalones etc, no real conclusion could be drawn.

To add to the confusion I was reading a thread yesterday which was singing the praises of Megasquirt ECUs with cams as they can remapped multiple times but with far less expense than a standard ECU remap. A lot of people thought these were the way forward and this is first time Ive read any real thoughts on these ECUs, the standalone of choice seems to be Omex.

So my question to you is how the hell do you decide what option to go for?

If anyone could explain their take on the pros and cons of the different methods these opinions would be most valuable.

Currently I have VTS with a enclosed filter, de-cat , 4-2-1 manifold & exhaust.

Im fully intent in increasing performance this is not a pipe dream so any help will aid my decision, Im also fully aware of the costs involved but this doesnt mean I have thousands of pounds to spend so it also needs to be a fairly cost effective option.

Cheers

Steve

8th August 2006, 16:20

A set of catcam 708s and a nice KMS ECU? Group buys on the SSC at the moment and this will allow TBs to be added later if you like. That said, I am no fan of TBs and would just go with 708s adn an ECU remap and be done with it

8th August 2006, 16:25

Quote:

A set of catcam 708s and a nice KMS ECU? Group buys on the SSC at the moment and this will allow TBs to be added later if you like. That said, I am no fan of TBs and would just go with 708s adn an ECU remap and be done with it

Cheers i'll have a look at the group buy

.

What do you see as a problem with throttle bodies?

I havent been in a cammed vts so when there in they might satisfy my power needs.

8th August 2006, 16:26

your thread by it self sounded confusing mate but gud luck with the performance, saw this guys car when i had the lights off him and damn one of the most sound saxos i have seen in time. gud luck mate

8th August 2006, 16:32

TB'd cars never seem to produce much more power and fuel economy generally seems to be a lot worse

8th August 2006, 16:33

It is very confusing as there are so many options but I tried to just get everyting down with out writing an essay.

Hopefully I've achieved part of that goal

Quote:

damn one of the most sound saxos i have seen in time

Why thank you, that little quote might be my new signature.

8th August 2006, 16:36

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TB'd cars never seem to produce much more power and fuel economy generally seems to be a lot worse

The power increases do seem limited but once you go past the "cammed" stage the options for power become alot more expensive, forced induction is twice the price of T/B's so that was the main appeal.

8th August 2006, 17:11

be my guest mate

9th August 2006, 17:26

Quote:

A set of catcam 708s and a nice KMS ECU? Group buys on the SSC at the moment and this will allow TBs to be added later if you like. That said, I am no fan of TBs and would just go with 708s adn an ECU remap and be done with it

I think this is the clever option I have been reading a lengthy thread on SSC and many of the people who have had the more exteme mods have all recommended the Cams + remap option.

I'm going to settle for this and save my money for something fast to begin with.

The cams and remap should prove more than enough RELIABLE power.

Heres the link for anyone who interested:
http://www.saxosportsclub.com/forum/.../SFE/posts.htm

9th August 2006, 19:38

as campdavids said go standolone and cams, this gives you the option of going on to tb's but then saying that to get the most out of them you wanna be running really wild cams, solid lifters, headwork ect because with out these the gains seem to be quite minimal. now it gets stupidly expensive. this is where your charged power is cheaper with money spent and power thats acheived.
otherwise youve got a very long project, lol

9th August 2006, 19:47

I think the sensible option is cams and remap the std ECU although I have read alot about stand alone ECU's coming with a base map (already mapped for cams) although this would not be ideal and better results would be seen from a rolling road map it would prove a cheaper option.

So many options its a nightmare....

9th August 2006, 20:02

like you said cheaper but youve lost 450 pound you decide to further. but you can spend 1000 and just over for 155-160 brake or 4000+ for 180 its just want you wanna end up with. i think bout just changing my car all the time but ive got a vision of how i want it and i hope i get it there.

9th August 2006, 20:06

Cams and remap I aint going no further I'd be mad to, I've spent enough.

So I've just got decide if I'm going standalone or std remp now.

gettting there slowly but surely. LOL

9th August 2006, 20:58

definately a remap then, it will be alot cheaper too. wayne at chipwizards is your man. Then you can spend more on suspension. lol

9th August 2006, 23:25

I have heard excellent things about chipwizards... supposed to be quality and cheap for mapping. I am still looking into TB's steve, and if I can get that deal with charlie for the inlet and headwork for £300 I'll deffinately see it through. Just takes a while thats all lol

10th August 2006, 08:21

Quote:

I have heard excellent things about chipwizards... supposed to be quality and cheap for mapping. I am still looking into TB's steve, and if I can get that deal with charlie for the inlet and headwork for £300 I'll deffinately see it through. Just takes a while thats all lol

Chipwaizards have a great reputation so I'd be mad not to use them, i look forward to the roar of T/B's past my house everyday

10th August 2006, 09:19

aye i've heard great things about wayne,anyone got any prices or contact details for him?

think thats all i'm doing now is cams headwork and a remap on the std ecu if you want anything faster after that its probally better going jap anyway

10th August 2006, 12:13

http://www.chipwizards.co.uk/

Ste - All the contact info is above and your right about the Jap thing.

10th August 2006, 12:51

My mate has a 106gti which is cammed de-cat manifold, skimmed and polished head and is running 160bhp and is the fastest small car ive eva been it , do that 1st then consider tbs cos believe me it made my vts look like a 1.1.

Bloz

10th August 2006, 13:48

for about a grand you should be able to get a vts pushing out 150 160bhp tbs will sound really good but heard they just like drinking more fuel

10th August 2006, 14:41

Please regard as money as no object here but 210bhp is possible for a 1600cc 16v Saxo.

Just look at the Super 1600 Rally Cars. I don't know what they do to get the power out but they can do it!

10th August 2006, 16:07

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Please regard as money as no object here but 210bhp is possible for a 1600cc 16v Saxo.

I've read a thread on SSC about a stupidly fast Saxo that kicks out over 200bhp, it must be insane.

I have never been in a cammed up VTS but imagine its quick as they are in std form, I was watching some vids of cammed vts's the other day and the revs just fly to the redline.

10th August 2006, 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by ets2k9

http://www.chipwizards.co.uk/

Ste - All the contact info is above and your right about the Jap thing.

searched for that all of lastnight and couldnt find the damn thing cheers mate :thumbup:

babers-that seems way too cheap to be honest i've been pricing parts and labour up and its more than a grand

i've been in a cammed gti before was pushing about 150 at the fly it was quick like wish i'd been able to drive it before the lad sold it

10th August 2006, 16:19

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babers-that seems way too cheap to be honest i've been pricing parts and labour up and its more than a grand

If he's talking about getting a completely std vts upto 160bhp then it does seem abit low.

I'll just have to beg some for a spin in the cammed VTS, it worked for my request in a turbo's Saxo

10th August 2006, 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ets2k9

If he's talking about getting a completely std vts upto 160bhp then it does seem abit low.

I'll just have to beg some for a spin in the cammed VTS, it worked for my request in a turbo's Saxo

roughly all the parts come to around the grand mark then theres the labour and a re map aswell cant see it happening for peanuts anytime soon would rather spend abit more money and have it done right skimping out when tuning an engine is a stupid ass thing to do anyway its the last thing i'd get done on the cheap

10th August 2006, 16:26

Around £400 quid for a remap so that leave £600 to spend on everything else.

10th August 2006, 16:30

cant see you getting cams,a ported and polished head,a 4 branch and a full exhaust for 600 quid

well not brand new anyway

10th August 2006, 16:35

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cant see you getting cams,a ported and polished head,a 4 branch and a full exhaust for 600 quid

well not brand new anyway

I cant either:

Raceland Manifold = £135
Ram Cooler = £65
2nd hand magnex/scorpian = £150 app
New Cams = £250 - £300 app
P&P head = I'd guess another £250 -£300 ( I may be wrong though)
Decat = £30

Rough price = £900 - £1000

Using a calculator to work that simpe sum out.

PRICELESS!!!!

10th August 2006, 16:39

thank god i've got half that shopping list already

then theres other things you might want to add like

oil cooler £120 (price from GMC i think)
gti-6/206 gti brakes- anywhere up from £150

10th August 2006, 16:43

No point in having the speed if you can't stop lol.

10th August 2006, 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by droopster

No point in having the speed if you can't stop lol.

damn right it scared the shit out of me trying to stop a standard vts with the standard brakes nevermind trying to stop a 160bhp one with stanard brakes

10th August 2006, 16:45

Raceland Manifold = £135
Ram Cooler = £65
2nd hand magnex/scorpian = £150 app
New Cams = £250 - £300 app
P&P head = I'd guess another £250 -£300 ( I may be wrong though)
Decat = £30
oil cooler £120 (price from GMC i think)
gti-6/206 gti brakes- anywhere up from £150

Rough price = £1000 _ £1200

10th August 2006, 16:47

Quote:

damn right it scared the shit out of me trying to stop a standard vts with the standard brakes nevermind trying to stop a 160bhp one with stanard brakes

There not upto the job at all I have really cheap discs and pads fitted at the moment, I might aswell stick my foot out the door.

However the 283mm disks and four pot calipers will solve all of this

10th August 2006, 16:49

I know a lad in Stafford who skimmed and polished my head, fitted cams etc for about £200 ish i think which I am told is cheap although Im sure you could barter with him, he got my cams and followers for me old VTR skimmed and polished head and fitted for £700 (which included a full service)

If anyones interested let me know

Bloz

10th August 2006, 16:51

Quote:

If anyones interested let me know

Thats sound great to me although funds are running low at the moment but once I get back from my holiday I'd be interested.

10th August 2006, 16:51

You will stop like a bolder and a piece of string out the boot. Must always wear your seatbelt as you may hit the windscreen using the breaks. Be carefull lol.

10th August 2006, 16:53

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You will stop like a bolder and a piece of string out the boot. Must always wear your seatbelt as you may hit the windscreen using the breaks. Be carefull lol.

I wasn't planning on perfecting my left foot braking technique put it that way

10th August 2006, 16:55

my cams, head-ported polished, skimmed, three angle valves and labour came to 1300. head job is optional though

yeah bics engine i think its running 216 na or something in his 106 but his car is basically rally prepped.