Spraying

15th August 2012, 11:34

To all the paint sprayers out there i need to learn how to spray, i know some are gifted and some arent, i be the arent, but im gonna need to learn. Obviously ill need a spray gun and compressor (got) but whats goes inside the paint can on the gun, paint and what? Thinners? Whats the prep and how do i do it to a fair standard. Its only to paint replavement panels when i inevitably ding them...

Thanks

15th August 2012, 11:40

not 100% on this but i think just wet sand were u want to spray.body filler if nessary sand that down. then primer wet sand and spray the panal colour of car till right colour. then wet sand final coat of paint then you put your clear coat on an u should be all done.. theres videos all over utube about spraying

15th August 2012, 11:43

It took me a month to get my bodywork prepped to an acceptable standard, no where near as simple as the person above has made out.

The spraying is the easy bit, it's all in the prep.

15th August 2012, 11:48

well i did say wasnt 100% on it.

15th August 2012, 12:05

not to smart on the paint i didnt listen through them classes but the key to prep is time and if you say thatal do... it wont. start with flatting back, with a 120 grit. then work up untill your at 1200 grit , the number on the back of the "wet and dry" paper ,(eg.1200p) if you want a real good finish go as hight as 2400p ,
then wash your panel. (proply) let it dry fully, wipe with a tack rag , like a sticky cloth, halfords sell them i think, then promer. flat back again with around 800p up to 1600p dont press too hard or youl go through the paint. and repeat over and over, untill you get the result you so wish, also with lacquer << cant spell apply fine thin coats to avoid runns, its a right killer after all that work

15th August 2012, 12:44

Yeah i understand the prep bit, but what sorta gun? Machine mart 20quid?

15th August 2012, 13:58

Go for a mid range gun, I think I paid 60-70 for mine after I got a few months practice painting everything I could with a crappy gun. Your compressor will probably come with one and a few other bits, it's probably ok for small jobs but more often than not only good for spraying the fence with. Yes you'll need thinners etc and a hardener depending on what paint your using. Best to ask what kind of paint to thinner and hardener ratio from where ever your buy your paint from. Get a mixing jug too so you can be accurate. A cheap gun is ok to start with but don't expect it to spray with a glass like finish without some work. The keys are a decent gun, hours and hours of prep and a good paint mix. Oh and a good size compressor that can keep up. After your prep I normally dust a few light coats onto the surface maybe 3 at the most. Leave it for a few minutes, then add a full coat. Have a ciggie and a brew then another couple of full coats till I'm happy. Wet & dry any blemishes, maybe another coat then clear coat/lacquer wet dry again. Then buff it like there's no tomorrow. Get a decent mask aswell otherwise all your bogies will be whatever colour you've been spraying!

15th August 2012, 14:16

What sort of nozzel size? Tbh im prob just gonna go cheap and cheerful got a few pannels i can practice on so its not straight on the car, was thinking of doing the inside of mine as well, but aerosol the cage (accuracy and colour i want would be expensive in paint form) compressor aint bad 25l 2hp or something... Needs a drain, what about a water trap as well? Make any difference? Will ask them about the thinners with paint colour and stuff :-)

posi blue is that a hard colour to paint?

15th August 2012, 14:46

If you plan on doing any amount of painting buy yourself a cheap second hand devilbiss gti or a cheap sata with a 1.3mm fluid needle and tip easier to strip to clean more controll and better finish. You want to be at 2 bar pressure at 7 inch away. Base coat needs to be a 50 50 mix with thinner. Clear coat is 2:1 mix with 5-10% thinner. Any more help give me a shout I live for this shit and do it day in day out.you will also need a in line water filter and oil trap if your compressor doesn't have one built in.

Wish people would shut up who have no clue on painting because tbh your just making yourselfs look like cocks.. I only know 3 people on here who can actually paint to any standard that's even worth talking about.

15th August 2012, 20:44

listen to beford he knows man.

what i've never got with water based paint. you have to add a 2pk clear coat on the top.
why not just paint in 2pk as the top coat. cut down a process (i'm not refering to metallics)

i'd recomend a devilbiss flg finishline spray gun around £100 with a 1.4mm tip and needle.
use one myself and have got some top finishes painting my wheels. soo good i've gotsoo many requests to do other's wheels, i have no time to be welding the fiesta

.

35psi at the gun iirc. fluid tip wound all the way open. and as devilbiss say adjust to suit you needs.
you can get people telling you how to spary or mix paint. but you really need to find what is comfortable to you and still gets a good finish.

oh btw between coats. leave the paint to 'tak off' before hiting it with another coat.

15th August 2012, 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by f13sta

listen to beford he knows man.

what i've never got with water based paint. you have to add a 2pk clear coat on the top.
why not just paint in 2pk as the top coat. cut down a process (i'm not refering to metallics)
.

The point with water borne is to cut down voc's in the atmosphere the 2k clear you use over the top isn't the normal 2k lacquer its a high solid low volatile organic substance basically the 10% thinners you put in is all the voc's in the full mix so saves the world and the polar bears love you.

2k solid colour is been phased out and by 2015 it will be all gone in favour of high solid 2k and if you have ever painted it you will know that a decent finish with no orange peel or sag's is impossible due to the nature of the pigment and binders in it.

16th August 2012, 08:02

Whats the celulose stuff?

Excuse the ignorance i know nothing about painting, can build engines and cars the tits (excuse the big headed ness) but painting and indepth bodywork is unchartered teritory for me

16th August 2012, 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by greyjasper51

Whats the celulose stuff?

Excuse the ignorance i know nothing about painting, can build engines and cars the tits (excuse the big headed ness) but painting and indepth bodywork is unchartered teritory for me

Cellulose will give you more problems than any other paint. It's cheap as chips and you can tell why it's more or less 100% solvent and will give no shine from the gun it needs to be polished regular and it is a very soft paint so chips and scratches happen easily. Stay away from cellulose in my opinion .

16th August 2012, 21:01

Don't underestimate the damage breathing the paint fumes can do either, certainly not with 2k. Cellulose you can get away with a suitable charcoal filter mask (although some vapour will always get in) but 2k is a different kettle of fish, a clean fresh air source for you to breath is required. Never used water based so can't advise there.

Completely agree with comments on prep. Bear in mind any imperfections will show through after painting if left.

16th August 2012, 21:17

Beford just adds a load of numbers and % signs to make it sound like he knows what he's on about.

16th August 2012, 21:20

Plenty of guides on the net have a quick google, you'll do better learning from professionals who've retired after 50 years and wrote a guide in their spare time than from someone who lives for spraying but never shows their work.

16th August 2012, 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryanoo

Beford just adds a load of numbers and % signs to make it sound like he knows what he's on about.

asking for a slap

he's a bloody bodyshop worker/ painter for a living.

and all of what he has said is correct. paint is mixed in ratios to % of thinners dependant on what paint you are mixing.

celly normally 50%-50% then less and less paint with more coats.
2pk used to be 2:1:10-20% but now due to hvlp, is more like 4:1:1 iirc
synthetic is muchly a 1:1 basis,
unsure about waterbased not painted that before.

16th August 2012, 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryanoo

Beford just adds a load of numbers and % signs to make it sound like he knows what he's on about.

ha ha.. ok mate.

16th August 2012, 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryanoo

Plenty of guides on the net have a quick google, you'll do better learning from professionals who've retired after 50 years and wrote a guide in their spare time than from someone who lives for spraying but never shows their work.

just what he needs then

my dad did this post on the morris minor website and i though this maybe some help to someone on here as i see a few how do i' threads , this is a professional guide written by my dad who was a paint sprayer for 22 years

hope it helps
kyle

Spraying synthetic

Introduction
I have noticed recently an interest in spraying synthetic paint, there also seems some confusion as how to spray this type of paint, what is it compatible with?
Synthetic can be sprayed over cellulose and 2 pack paint but not the other way around unless some form of isolator is used first; this is due to the make up of each type of paint. I will try and keep this as easy to read as possible without too much technical jargon, people whishing to try and use synthetic that have never sprayed before might find this informative.

Cellulose
Cellulose is an aggressive paint due to the fact of the amount of thinners needed for the finished application normally mixed 50 parts paint to 50 part cellulose thinners or 1-1. the reason the pressure was 30 to 40 psi was the paint is thicker at 1-1 if you put a lot of thinners in celly you don't need a such a higher pressure , but this can cause its own set of problems to someone thats not used to spraying,spraying thicker paint at such a low pressure can cause its own set of problems, these can come in the form of reduced spray gun fan width, this will make the paint from the gun dryer, stop flowing correctly and it would be slower to apply, even ending with tram lines on the panel and a genral uneven coat on the surface . What i tend to do with celly is to start off with a 1-1 mix and give it 2 all over coats then on each additional coat add more thinners the final coat would be litery a colour coat of thinners

2 pack paint
2 pack has 2 main components 1 is the paint 2 is the hardner. When the hardner is mixed with the paint in the correct ratio usually 2-1 a chemical reaction occurs hardening off the paint. There are also thinners used to help with the flow and thin the mixed paint / hardner, the finished ratio is normally 2-1-10% sometimes 20% thinners
Paint 2
Hardner 1
Thinner 10% or
20%
Again with the make up
Of this paint you cannot spray this over synthetic

Starting off
Firstly look at the vehicle to be painted, what condition is it in? decide what finish you want, just a quick blow over or more of a lasting paint job. The reason I say this is it will all come down to the preparation .If the paint on the vehicle is not in too bad of condition you could just do with a wet flat, or scotch brite pad, rusty areas will require more rougher sanding working to a finer grit and filled if necessary. The other way is to use a Da sander all over using a 180 or 240 grit sanding disc I use this method myself. Please make sure before any rubbing down commences that there is no wax, oil grease or silicon on any body work as this will be rubbed into the scratches and will react to the primer / topcoat.

Spraying primer
I personally use I C I now called nexa fast build primer, this is a commercial vehicle primer that can take all types of paint mentioned above, it can be sprayed over synthetic, its a 1pack primer mixed with 1335 thinner in a ratio of 4-1 it also has anti corrosive properties so is an excellent primer for areas that have been broken through while sanding 2 good coats all over left over night to dry. With using the ici primer there is no needs to use etch primer before priming. Only down side to this primer is its only available in 5 litre tins, white and grey, same goes for the thinner in 5 litres only
Depending what paint manufacturer you use, check to see what primer / thinner is available for the synthetic top coat you choose.
You also want to ask for a data sheet for the primer and top coat as this gives all the relevant mixing information needed

After primer
A quick dry flat off with 800 wet n dry tack off then ready to paint

Thinning synthetic Top coat

Synthetic can be thinned down 3 ways

1 mixed with a mixing stick thickness depends on individual paint manufacturer
2 by viscosity / flow cup usually ford bs4 thickness as above
3 hot spray application no need for thinners

Spraying synthetic topcoat
Once the correct mixing has been achieved, start on the roof on one side with a semi tack coat not a full wet coat, go to the other side of the roof and do the same that side. Repeat this all over the car starting from the side of the roof you first sprayed including door edges if your doing them inside boot and bonnet if doing them as well keeping the spray gun approximately 12 away from the panel . Once the first tack coat has been applied you can start from the same place you first started from this time with a heaver coat working methodically around the car. One point to remember with synthetic topcoat is it takes longer to dry so it will keep on flowing on the panel for longer so be careful not to over do the wet coat, you can indeed go around the car again if needed, but wait about 10 minutes before going over again .

Spray gun technique
I dont think there is any one way I can explain this, as every one sprays in there own fashion, except that I dont spray synthetic any different to 2pk. synthetic its not a hard paint to use
Spray gun pressure
Even with the paint mixed to the correct ratio, you will need a bit more pressure at the gun, as the synthetic will still be thicker than mixed celly. If my memory lets me, celly is sprayed about 30 to 40 psi at the gun, as where synthetic would require around 50 to 60 psi at the gun

Spray gun air cap (outer nozzle)

This all depends on what make of spray gun you are using .I use a devilbiss jga 558
With a no43 air cap for primer and n 86 for top coat. I use this set up for 2 pk as well but this is just my preference

Paint runs and sags
If you are unfortunate to get a run or sag in one or more of the panels dont panic. If you have spotted this before the paint is dry you can was off the affected area with thinners , do not use cellulose thinners as this will fetch off the primer as well, use the primer thinner or panel wipe , all your aiming to do is to wash off the top coat . Lets say you had a run on a wing you need to wash off the entire wing being careful not to splash any thinner on any other areas. Leave it over night to dry nib wing with 800 wet and dry mask off whole car tack off wing and respray

Dry runs
Think of synthetic paint as an egg custard, when its first sprayed, sort of hard on the outside but runny underneath. Synthetic paint is very much like this as it takes a lot longer to dry so making re-working much more time consuming, you cannot rush re-working synthetic
You can scrape off the run with a flat blade scraper going past the run into sound paint, this will leave a deep groove where the run was, feel with you finger to see if its still tacky, if it is you will have to leave this over night to cure, you could try wet flatting with 400 wet and dry using wet and with soap, but this only just seems to make the paint roll and then you end up with more scratches .so best leave over night to cure after you have scraped off the run, then do as above.

A word to the wise
. You must let synthetic cure over night if you have rubbed into it as the underneath needs to dry. If not the thinners from the newly applied paint will react called crazing and you will be in a worse position than before

Ambient temperature
As synthetic takes longer to dry it is also doesnt like damp / cold if this happens then a blooming reaction occurs, this is where the paint has a white milky glaze to it . This has happened because the paint hasnt cured before the temperature dropped. so it will need a wet flat and re spraying

Dirt contamination
Again flat to get rid of contamination then leave over night and respray

Silicon
This is a pain to get rid of as the problem usually lies in the paint underneath
The way I get rid of this is to flat the area and then I use a product called flo-rite this is actually a silicon additive in a very small bottle with a dropper that you mix with the paint just 2 drops in 1 ltr will cure the problem, but you must wash out the gun well and throw away the paint left from the pot, if you had to repaint that area again you must use the flo-rite again

Footnote

Please note!! That most of these situations were delt with in a professional paint shop environment and that is how we delt with each problem that arrived, these ideas can be used in the garage but remember that it will take longer to dry

Well I hope this helps someone out, as it was written for an insight into spraying synthetic paint

By me dustyfog who was a commercial vehicle paint sprayer for 22 years. Many thanks for taking the time to read this article

for photos of his paint work. check my progress thead he painted the saxo's body work. if thats not enough i'll get some photos of the morris he painted up also.

16th August 2012, 21:42

I'm about to spray an aston martin centre console unit and sell it for £300.. go figure lol.

when I do, I'll post a pic up.

Also I agree with bedford on one thing, GTi pro 'Clear' is a weapon, used it all day today, once setup you can spray such a flat finish, even with paint that's so thick it requires 40% of the mix to be thinners... (And is still abnormally thick!)

16th August 2012, 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryanoo

I'm about to spray an aston martin centre console unit and sell it for £300.. go figure lol.

when I do, I'll post a pic up.

Also I agree with bedford on one thing, GTi pro 'Clear' is a weapon, used it all day today, once setup you can spray such a flat finish, even with paint that's so thick it requires 40% of the mix to be thinners... (And is still abnormally thick!)

Are we suppose to be impressed? ask any one who has seen my work like wassy or dannyvts on here it's not about how much you charge its the quality of the work and the satisfaction of the customer. I don't post any pics of my work on here because I don't need to boast. The quality I produce speaks for itself. If you want to see my work there is a helmet on here that i painted in my shed and its a mirror finish. Also look at wassy's rear bumper i extended 3.5 inch and tell me I don't know what I am doing?

16th August 2012, 21:53

Not charging it, aston sent it to my dad like 3 years ago for finishing, he left it... I found it today.. etc.

You made a mirror into a helmet? isn't that dangerous? surely glass around your face isn't a good idea?

edit: I build space rockets in my spare time by the way.

16th August 2012, 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryanoo

Not charging it, aston sent it to my dad like 3 years ago for finishing, he left it... I found it today.. etc.

You made a mirror into a helmet? isn't that dangerous? surely glass around your face isn't a good idea?

A really shit troll.

16th August 2012, 22:00

Not really, just a long way of saying I don't give a fuck, I can spray/polish to a mirror finish, whoopdedoo I've been doing it for about 6 years on and off, 2 years of that full time.. shows how hard it is..

16th August 2012, 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryanoo

Not really, just a long way of saying I don't give a fuck, I can spray/polish to a mirror finish, whoopdedoo I've been doing it for about 6 years on and off, 2 years of that full time.. shows how hard it is..

yeah ok mate.

17th August 2012, 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryanoo

Beford just adds a load of numbers and % signs to make it sound like he knows what he's on about.

the fact he does it day in day out everyday, im pretty sure he knows what he's saying/doing.

iv seen his work, so has wassy and most probs quite a few more on here.

if he wasnt that good at his job do you really think wassy would put it on his car.....NO!! i dont think so!!!

nob, that is all.

17th August 2012, 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryanoo

Not really, just a long way of saying I don't give a fuck, I can spray/polish to a mirror finish, whoopdedoo I've been doing it for about 6 years on and off, 2 years of that full time.. shows how hard it is..

a member on the forum asked for some tips on preparing/spraying.
other professional members replied giving pointers and advice.
no-one was boasting about how good they were. only other members praising their work.

if you are that good show me.

17th August 2012, 22:18

As far as ive seen with paint, theres those that think there good and those that know there good...

I just wanted to know how worthwhile it would be for me to learn and get some practice in, spraying my spare pannels for my car when i bend them... Thats all needed somewhere to start and bedford 126 has helped and its made sense to a beginner

17th August 2012, 23:49

allways worth it mate.
most of painting comes with practice. and getting the 'feel' i am no painter, but my father is, so that spured me on to learn the trade as a hobby painter. and i seem to have a natural flare for it. but i bet it wouldn't even come close to the finish a pro would get. as you would imagine. so far all i've really done is painting wheels. never a full car or body panels. considering doing the fiesta myself
but i don't know lol. can always flat it back and polish it up

ignore people who boast. most can't back it up with evidance. did aston martin have painted centre consols. would have though at least they would be carpet. if not wood effect or leather.

17th August 2012, 23:54

Aston martins had real wood centres, the choices were mahogany, teak or a lighter wood to match the trim, also aluminium has been used more recently and in the db5 iirc....

Tbh the paint sprayer my dad uses round the corner is ok, good enough for what i need, but after colour coding a spare bodykit... Itll start to add up quickly lol, just wanna try and keep costs down atm until my wages bump up abit then maybe ill start thinking about better stuff with better finishes and ill have the hang on mixing and spraying and stuff :-)

19th August 2012, 09:56

do you use gravity or suction feed gun bedford?

19th August 2012, 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by benkelsall

do you use gravity or suction feed gun bedford?

Depends what I painting mate if we have a respray on anything bigger than a van we use suction feed just for the amount they can hold. But 90% of work I use a hvlp gravity feed with the 3m cup system. Just less waste and a lighter gun and cup set up.

19th August 2012, 12:28

Gravity feed a better set up?

19th August 2012, 12:31

Yes it's lighter less waste easier to clean and nicer to hold and control when painting. Suction is only really for larger jobs where you have big panels and can't run out of paint half way through.

19th August 2012, 12:50

Right so adviseable to get gravity feed gun, oil and water trap, paint, thinners, (got fairly good mask) anything else?

19th August 2012, 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by greyjasper51

Right so adviseable to get gravity feed gun, oil and water trap, paint, thinners, (got fairly good mask) anything else?

My set up at home is a.

Compressor - water trap - airline (wide boar fittings) - in line filter- pressure gauge - Devilbiss gti gravity spray gun.

Does me fine at home and gives a good finish. I would also advise a 5ltr tin of standard or gun wash thinners just for cleaning your gun. Make sure its clinically clean after every use.

Also I would get some solvent spirit wipe for cleaning panels and parts before painting.

19th August 2012, 13:24

Gocha :-) cheers