Are 266mm enough?

1. MuZiZZle Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2011 Newcastle upon Tyne Posts: 7779 Phase 2 VTS , E61 M5

   #1 2nd November 2012, 10:28

   I have 266s on the VTS, mongtec drilled and grooved discs and Ferodo DS2500 pads.
   
   A few times the other week on track I sort of ran out of braking ability, it didn't lock up, but it just didn't stop enough, if that makes any sense?
   
   I'm presuming it was heat related and only really happened on the large straight, braking from 100 to 30 ish.
   
   Should I just live with this? try cooling them? go bigger?
   
   Thoughs guys?
2. welshpug Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2010 South Wales Posts: 3078 ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.

   #2 2nd November 2012, 10:30

   which track and how long had you been out, and what wheels?
   
   brake cooling ducts can help massively.
3. L20VTS Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Nov 2007 Hams Hall/Spine Road etc Posts: 8076 Still broken ones.

   #3 2nd November 2012, 10:31

   Go 4 pot
   
   I have 283 with drilled and grooved disk and yellow stuff pads, when warm they are fab. however because I couldn't be arsed to upgrade my master cylinder I have... nothing, nothing... oh we've stopped and the wheels locked up lol.
4. MuZiZZle Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2011 Newcastle upon Tyne Posts: 7779 Phase 2 VTS , E61 M5

   #4 2nd November 2012, 10:38

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by welshpug which track and how long had you been out, and what wheels? brake cooling ducts can help massively.

   Knockhill reverse, (sessions) so about 8 laps, giving it utter death, and Turinis.
   
   I'm no pro so I was probably overbreaking?
5. user_39461 Super Moderator Joined: Nov 2009 Cambridge(ish), UK. Posts: 10581 BMW 5x M50d.

   #5 2nd November 2012, 10:41

   You want the smallest size brakes possible that don't fade under your hardest driving conditions. as above, ducts will help massively, as will good fluid.
   
   Put off going to 283mm as long as you can (unless you're a style whore of course) - makes the front end noticeably crashy and less responsive imo.
6. L20VTS Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Nov 2007 Hams Hall/Spine Road etc Posts: 8076 Still broken ones.

   #6 2nd November 2012, 10:42

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by Ross You want the smallest size brakes possible that don't fade under your hardest driving conditions. as above, ducts will help massively, as will good fluid. Put off going to 283mm as long as you can (unless you're a style whore of course) - makes the front end noticeably crashy and less responsive imo.

   Agreed I love mine adds entertainment to driving, I only keep them cos they look awesome.

   1 user thanked this post: Pricklep
7. wheeler Regular Poster Joined: Oct 2012 York Posts: 262 VTR with VTS engine

   #7 2nd November 2012, 10:45

   knockhill is quite a tough circuit on most vehicles apparently, one of the shortest courses in the UK with plenty of tight turns. Try somewhere like cadwell, oulton park or croft and see how you get on mate
   
   oh and let me know when you're doing your next track day - I'll do my best to get along as I'm crawling the walls for some track action at the minute!
8. MuZiZZle Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2011 Newcastle upon Tyne Posts: 7779 Phase 2 VTS , E61 M5

   #8 2nd November 2012, 10:49

   Ross, I understand that 266s are light?
   
   Wheeler I will do, I't only really been driven hard on that one day, FCS didn't really count.
   
   As for cooling I had planned to duct the fogs to the calipers, might do it over the winter, I've been reading a number of papers on it, was planning on making something to fit on the back of the disc from fiberglass maybe, god knows
9. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

   #9 2nd November 2012, 10:54

   I would get some ducts onto the discs and calipers, change your fluid with something better and see how that goes.
   
   If the same problem occurs then look at the temperature range your pads work in and find another that is the next jump up in heat range.
10. user_39461 Super Moderator Joined: Nov 2009 Cambridge(ish), UK. Posts: 10581 BMW 5x M50d.

    #10 2nd November 2012, 10:54

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MuZiZZle Ross, I understand that 266s are light? Wheeler I will do, I't only really been driven hard on that one day, FCS didn't really count. As for cooling I had planned to duct the fogs to the calipers, might do it over the winter, I've been reading a number of papers on it, was planning on making something to fit on the back of the disc from fiberglass maybe, god knows

    Mate i'm no expert on brakes far from it - I'm not a track driver, just as you can imagine my brakes do get a pasting on the road as it's all high speed stuff, but nothing like track action. I do know that adding unsprung weight sucks everywhere, so you want the lightest of everything you can. Which is why I want split rotors/hubs rather than solid discs but at £500+ I'm too tight to buy em.
11. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #11 2nd November 2012, 10:55

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MuZiZZle was planning on making something to fit on the back of the disc from fiberglass maybe, god knows

    choose your resin wisely. You don't want to make something that will catch fire!
12. wheeler Regular Poster Joined: Oct 2012 York Posts: 262 VTR with VTS engine

    #12 2nd November 2012, 10:58

    Stupid question but have you got full braided lines across the whole braking setup? And when was the fluid last changed?
13. MuZiZZle Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2011 Newcastle upon Tyne Posts: 7779 Phase 2 VTS , E61 M5

    #13 2nd November 2012, 10:58

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KamRacing choose your resin wisely. You don't want to make something that will catch fire!

    
    oh, lol!
14. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #14 2nd November 2012, 11:25

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by wheeler Stupid question but have you got full braided lines across the whole braking setup? And when was the fluid last changed?

    copper pipes are arguably better as they cannot expand. They don't look as pretty though. even with braided hose ideally you want to use as little flexible hose as possible.

    2 users thanked this post: user_39461, wheeler
15. welshpug Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2010 South Wales Posts: 3078 ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.

    #15 2nd November 2012, 11:26

    Cupcar AP's are nice and light.
16. MuZiZZle Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2011 Newcastle upon Tyne Posts: 7779 Phase 2 VTS , E61 M5

    #16 2nd November 2012, 11:52

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by wheeler Stupid question but have you got full braided lines across the whole braking setup? And when was the fluid last changed?

    I have a 23mm MC to go in
    
    Exact Lines, and fresh AP 5.1 fluid
17. user_16747 Banned Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 4328

    #17 2nd November 2012, 13:19

    Swap the fluid for ate super blue
    
    What wheels do you run!!
    
    The only time I got brake fade on my 306 was with 205 gti wheels on, due to the small holes not allowing air in or heat out
18. MuZiZZle Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2011 Newcastle upon Tyne Posts: 7779 Phase 2 VTS , E61 M5

    #18 2nd November 2012, 13:23

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by swampy Swap the fluid for ate super blue What wheels do you run!! The only time I got brake fade on my 306 was with 205 gti wheels on, due to the small holes not allowing air in or heat out

    Speedline Turinis
19. AlexBp West Midlands Joined: Dec 2007 West mids Posts: 23149 Supra,civic GL

    #19 3rd November 2012, 21:45

    turinis should allow a fair bit of air through
    
    id look at fluid and pad compound being the issue
    ds2500 ive seen fade on round donnington on 266s after about 15 minutes on track
    
    cl brakes rc5+ on 247s i did 15 minutes at fcs and got no fade
    and ive done 25 minute sessions at mallory park again no dafe
    aswell as 2 very closely spaced sessions at rockingham and no fade
    
    thats with AP 5.1 fluid
    no braided lines
20. user_15989 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: May 2007 Posts: 4857

    #20 4th November 2012, 09:14

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MuZiZZle I have 266s on the VTS, mongtec drilled and grooved discs and Ferodo DS2500 pads. A few times the other week on track I sort of ran out of braking ability, it didn't lock up, but it just didn't stop enough, if that makes any sense? I'm presuming it was heat related and only really happened on the large straight, braking from 100 to 30 ish. Should I just live with this? try cooling them? go bigger? Thoughs guys?

    They should be fine for track days as long as you have good and fresh brake fluid. Though they will heat up on longer runs. Best cheap option for longer runs is just vent air from the fog lamps to the brakes.
21. Jimmy-Boy Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2006 Suffolk Posts: 7551 N/A 200bhp+ per ton 106 gti

    #21 4th November 2012, 11:20

    any picks of how to make the air ducts?
22. MuZiZZle Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2011 Newcastle upon Tyne Posts: 7779 Phase 2 VTS , E61 M5

    #22 4th November 2012, 11:22

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AlexB turinis should allow a fair bit of air through id look at fluid and pad compound being the issue ds2500 ive seen fade on round donnington on 266s after about 15 minutes on track cl brakes rc5+ on 247s i did 15 minutes at fcs and got no fade and ive done 25 minute sessions at mallory park again no dafe aswell as 2 very closely spaced sessions at rockingham and no fade thats with AP 5.1 fluid no braided lines

    Cheers Alex I might try those pads
    
    I had 2500s on my Legacy and hi specs and they never faded???
    
    I'm going to get some in car tuition in the new year, it's probably my binary driving style
23. MuZiZZle Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2011 Newcastle upon Tyne Posts: 7779 Phase 2 VTS , E61 M5

    #23 4th November 2012, 11:23

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AXracing They should be fine for track days as long as you have good and fresh brake fluid. Though they will heat up on longer runs. Best cheap option for longer runs is just vent air from the fog lamps to the brakes.

    Im looking into this over the winter too,
24. AlexBp West Midlands Joined: Dec 2007 West mids Posts: 23149 Supra,civic GL

    #24 4th November 2012, 12:11

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MuZiZZle Cheers Alex I might try those pads I had 2500s on my Legacy and hi specs and they never faded??? I'm going to get some in car tuition in the new year, it's probably my binary driving style

    ive got 1155s in high specs currently and the 247s out perform them imo but they dont fade the larger discs deal with heat a lot better
    
    
    tuition is allways good you will allways find things you didnt know
    tbh id benefit a lot from it but i dont take instruction well lol
25. MuZiZZle Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2011 Newcastle upon Tyne Posts: 7779 Phase 2 VTS , E61 M5

    #25 4th November 2012, 14:15

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AlexB ive got 1155s in high specs currently and the 247s out perform them imo but they dont fade the larger discs deal with heat a lot better tuition is allways good you will allways find things you didnt know tbh id benefit a lot from it but i dont take instruction well lol

    At least you're honest!
26. user_15989 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: May 2007 Posts: 4857

    #26 4th November 2012, 14:35

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jimmy-Boy any picks of how to make the air ducts?

    
    
    this one is not a saxo but will show you the sort of thing your looking at
    
    
    

    1 user thanked this post: Jimmy-Boy
27. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #27 4th November 2012, 19:11

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AlexB turinis should allow a fair bit of air through id look at fluid and pad compound being the issue ds2500 ive seen fade on round donnington on 266s after about 15 minutes on track cl brakes rc5+ on 247s i did 15 minutes at fcs and got no fade and ive done 25 minute sessions at mallory park again no dafe aswell as 2 very closely spaced sessions at rockingham and no fade thats with AP 5.1 fluid no braided lines

    For a proper dedicated track car i'd be running the DS3000 rather than the DS2500. The DS2500 starts dropping off in performance about 300 degrees.
    The DS3000 is double that before fading. The DS3000 though needs a lot more heat to get fully working, making it unsuitable for normal road use where the brake system simply does not generate enough heat.
    The advantage of the CL Brakes RC5 is its consistency from cold to 1000 degrees. I'd not recommend these for road use as they do not come with any anti rattle shims. Until they get hot and expand in the caliper they can be tedious. They don't like the rapid cooling and heating under road use either - they dont tend to last particularly long when people try to use them through winter.
    
    Kev
28. MuZiZZle Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2011 Newcastle upon Tyne Posts: 7779 Phase 2 VTS , E61 M5

    #28 4th November 2012, 20:38

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AXracing this one is not a saxo but will show you the sort of thing your looking at

    Good stuff!
    
    I shall basically copy this
29. AlexBp West Midlands Joined: Dec 2007 West mids Posts: 23149 Supra,civic GL

    #29 4th November 2012, 21:44

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KamRacing For a proper dedicated track car i'd be running the DS3000 rather than the DS2500. The DS2500 starts dropping off in performance about 300 degrees. The DS3000 is double that before fading. The DS3000 though needs a lot more heat to get fully working, making it unsuitable for normal road use where the brake system simply does not generate enough heat. The advantage of the CL Brakes RC5 is its consistency from cold to 1000 degrees. I'd not recommend these for road use as they do not come with any anti rattle shims. Until they get hot and expand in the caliper they can be tedious. They don't like the rapid cooling and heating under road use either - they dont tend to last particularly long when people try to use them through winter. Kev

    2500s werent my car but i agree on track 3000s are a better choice but id go rc5+ every time on a track car
    used on the road they seemed fine and over 8 months they have very little wear on tbh
30. user_31637 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2009 Isle of Man Posts: 9844 92 Eunos

    #30 4th November 2012, 22:39

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ross Mate i'm no expert on brakes far from it - I'm not a track driver, just as you can imagine my brakes do get a pasting on the road as it's all high speed stuff,

    
    All below 70 I do hope Mr Moderator?
31. user_39461 Super Moderator Joined: Nov 2009 Cambridge(ish), UK. Posts: 10581 BMW 5x M50d.

    #31 5th November 2012, 08:18

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jay_ All below 70 I do hope Mr Moderator?

    No, to be honest. But I do try to keep it below 150 when in a built up area.

    3 users thanked this post: AlexBp, scottie_436, user_34323
32. Old_School_Saxo Infrequent Poster Joined: Oct 2012 Cearphilly (Area) Posts: 218 Saxo Ph2 Furio, Fiesta Mk4 1.7, Astra H 1.8 SRI

    #32 5th November 2012, 15:34

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ross No, to be honest. But I do try to keep it below 150 when in a built up area.

    lol it would be unsafe for a saxo to do 150mph there to light, it would take off lol....
33. Old_School_Saxo Infrequent Poster Joined: Oct 2012 Cearphilly (Area) Posts: 218 Saxo Ph2 Furio, Fiesta Mk4 1.7, Astra H 1.8 SRI

    #33 5th November 2012, 15:37

    280mm caiplers
    black dimond combi discs
    ds2500 pads
    braided brake lines
    dot 5.1 fuild
    
    thats what my mate runs and its heavyer than a saxo (much) and it stops like no tomorrow.
34. user_39461 Super Moderator Joined: Nov 2009 Cambridge(ish), UK. Posts: 10581 BMW 5x M50d.

    #34 5th November 2012, 16:09

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Old_School_Saxo lol it would be unsafe for a saxo to do 150mph there to light, it would take off lol....

    from personal experience, I can tell you they dont
    But it does focus ones mind somewhat
35. Old_School_Saxo Infrequent Poster Joined: Oct 2012 Cearphilly (Area) Posts: 218 Saxo Ph2 Furio, Fiesta Mk4 1.7, Astra H 1.8 SRI

    #35 5th November 2012, 16:17

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ross from personal experience, I can tell you they dont But it does focus ones mind somewhat

    I would never do that speed in a saxo hell i wouldnt do it in my fiesta, small light cars + High Speed = Big Crash.
36. MuZiZZle Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2011 Newcastle upon Tyne Posts: 7779 Phase 2 VTS , E61 M5

    #36 5th November 2012, 16:42

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Old_School_Saxo 280mm caiplers black dimond combi discs ds2500 pads braided brake lines dot 5.1 fuild thats what my mate runs and its heavyer than a saxo (much) and it stops like no tomorrow.

    
    I had a Hi Spec Monster 6 kit 330mm on my Legacy, and Ds2500 pads all round, braided lines and decent fluid, that never faded and it was a 170mph rocket, my saxo did fade, hence the thread
37. Old_School_Saxo Infrequent Poster Joined: Oct 2012 Cearphilly (Area) Posts: 218 Saxo Ph2 Furio, Fiesta Mk4 1.7, Astra H 1.8 SRI

    #37 5th November 2012, 16:46

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MuZiZZle I had a Hi Spec Monster 6 kit 330mm on my Legacy, and Ds2500 pads all round, braided lines and decent fluid, that never faded and it was a 170mph rocket, my saxo did fade, hence the thread

    saxo brakes are rubbish ive just renewed all my brakes all round (stock items) and i can only just stop the car when driving on the road, Get some high spec 285mm 4 pots for the saxo thay do make then for them for like £500..
38. user_15989 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: May 2007 Posts: 4857

    #38 5th November 2012, 18:33

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Old_School_Saxo lol it would be unsafe for a saxo to do 150mph there to light, it would take off lol....

    150 is fine Try 160mph the front becomes very very light
39. user_39461 Super Moderator Joined: Nov 2009 Cambridge(ish), UK. Posts: 10581 BMW 5x M50d.

    #39 5th November 2012, 18:35

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AXracing 150 is fine Try 160mph the front becomes very very light

    I can ALSO confirm this is true lol
40. scottie_436 Regular Poster Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 449

    #40 5th November 2012, 19:03

    Ive got
    
    hispec ultralight 4pots
    running 264mm discs
    M1155 pads
    Braided lines
    
    Works great.. No fade.
    
    Only thing i dont like about the 1155s is they need heat to work and like to be kept hot. And they squeel when cold