Welded diff??

1. user_62429 L-plater Joined: Dec 2012 Dunbartonshire Posts: 60 2003 Saxo VTS

   #1 8th December 2012, 17:46

   Hello folks I know this isn't the smartest way to get optimum traction on a tarmac circuit, but has anyone ever done this and drove a track car with a welded diff before?
   The reason I'm putting this Question out there is, I simply need a diff for my VTS and don't have the kind of cash they are worth...dam diff prices!!
   A couple of good mates of mine had done this to there stock car and described it as mental and "christ you need to hang on" due to zero slip lol.
   Has any of the track boys done this? How does it handle? Does it damage shafts or the box?
   
   Cheers
2. welshpug Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2010 South Wales Posts: 3078 ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.

   #2 8th December 2012, 18:01

   you can't do it with FWD, it wont go round corners.
3. Chris_O Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Mar 2007 Kent Posts: 4175 RB25'd s14a + 2008 MWB Transit

   #3 8th December 2012, 18:05

   I've got a welder on mine, but it's rwd. Gets the back end out easier, not that i need it really! But yeah as said, wont work on a fwd car
4. Dave_P Established Member Joined: Dec 2010 Aberdeen Posts: 2129 Race: 106 Rallye 16v. Road: Mercedes Vito 120 CDI

   #4 8th December 2012, 18:09

   Get a steering wheel off a double decker bus and you'll be ok.
5. user_15989 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: May 2007 Posts: 4857

   #5 8th December 2012, 18:23

   Not a good idea. A few guys have done it for drag racing but they only go strait. On the track it will tend to make you car just want to not turn in and go strait on or on the other hang it may more crab depending on how your weights are sitting. Could even end up with a odd mix of the two. It will also tend to eat rubber.
6. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

   #6 8th December 2012, 19:05

   Save up and buy a proper plate differential. You will not regret it.

   1 user thanked this post: user_39461
7. Dave_P Established Member Joined: Dec 2010 Aberdeen Posts: 2129 Race: 106 Rallye 16v. Road: Mercedes Vito 120 CDI

   #7 8th December 2012, 19:10

   If your feeling flush i might have some trick gearboxes for sale soon.
8. user_4681 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Dec 2004 Grimsby United Kingdom (England) Posts: 5489 SUPERCHARGED saxo vts

   #8 8th December 2012, 19:51

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by Dave_P If your feeling flush i might have some trick gearboxes for sale soon.

   
   
   Tell me more!
   
   Also i have seen fixed diffs for classic minis on ebay quite cheap. I can see it placing a lot of stress on drivetrain.
9. Dave_P Established Member Joined: Dec 2010 Aberdeen Posts: 2129 Race: 106 Rallye 16v. Road: Mercedes Vito 120 CDI

   #9 8th December 2012, 20:14

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by sexy_gt Tell me more!.

   My Gripper MA dog box (3.9FD) with Gripper plate LSD & MA Quaife homologated syncro box (3.7FD) & quaife diff.
10. user_4681 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Dec 2004 Grimsby United Kingdom (England) Posts: 5489 SUPERCHARGED saxo vts

    #10 8th December 2012, 20:30

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dave_P My Gripper MA dog box (3.9FD) with Gripper plate LSD & MA Quaife homologated syncro box (3.7FD) & quaife diff.

    gripper/3.9 fd whats that top out at 50 profile 15" rim 7,200 rpm?
11. Dave_P Established Member Joined: Dec 2010 Aberdeen Posts: 2129 Race: 106 Rallye 16v. Road: Mercedes Vito 120 CDI

    #11 8th December 2012, 20:41

    103mph. You need more revs man, it'll do 126mph on my car.
    
    The Quaife would give you 108mph, go to 8k rpm and you get 120mph.
12. user_4681 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Dec 2004 Grimsby United Kingdom (England) Posts: 5489 SUPERCHARGED saxo vts

    #12 8th December 2012, 21:20

    ^^ not right for my car
13. Dave_P Established Member Joined: Dec 2010 Aberdeen Posts: 2129 Race: 106 Rallye 16v. Road: Mercedes Vito 120 CDI

    #13 8th December 2012, 21:23

    Err... nope!
    
    You'd need a diesel FD with the ratios of these boxes to suit your low revving car.
14. user_31637 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2009 Isle of Man Posts: 9844 92 Eunos

    #14 8th December 2012, 21:54

    Welded diff y0 do it and report back. If it's shit, just buy a proper diff. You never know, you could be making something the big companies never though of.....
15. RustySkull Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2009 Basildon And Corringham, Essex Posts: 5179 MK1 Focus RS, Discovery TD5, Renault Trafic 2.0

    #15 8th December 2012, 22:26

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by VTStrackattack Hello folks I know this isn't the smartest way to get optimum traction on a tarmac circuit, but has anyone ever done this and drove a track car with a welded diff before? The reason I'm putting this Question out there is, I simply need a diff for my VTS and don't have the kind of cash they are worth...dam diff prices!! A couple of good mates of mine had done this to there stock car and described it as mental and "christ you need to hang on" due to zero slip lol. Has any of the track boys done this? How does it handle? Does it damage shafts or the box? Cheers

    Your mates are lying because on a FWD car you just won't go around corners, and in a RWD car, it makes you loose grip, My BMW Drift Car has a welded diff and if you tried to take that 'round a track without sliding, you'd have to be going pretty slow lol.
16. gazza808 Frequent Poster Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 591

    #16 9th December 2012, 00:00

    I used to drive my fwd car to pod with a welded diff. It drove like shit, scrubbed round corners and slow speed stuff was a pig.
    I wouldn't even recommend it for straight line stuff now, I shattered a cv joint an it tried putting me into the wall. Even the Americans are ditching drag spools for proper lsd's for this reason.
17. Kebabman Regular Poster Joined: Sep 2012 Lancs Posts: 439 Saxo VTS mk1 stage rally car

    #17 9th December 2012, 00:17

    As has been previously said. No, to a welded diff on a FWD car. For track use it will be useless. Get your pennies together and get a proper LSD.
18. RustySkull Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2009 Basildon And Corringham, Essex Posts: 5179 MK1 Focus RS, Discovery TD5, Renault Trafic 2.0

    #18 9th December 2012, 08:47

    Yeah, my RS has an LSD and that works well, Although you do still get a lot of torque steer.
19. welshpug Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2010 South Wales Posts: 3078 ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.

    #19 9th December 2012, 11:38

    yeah, naff Quaife things, get a proper one.
20. user_39461 Super Moderator Joined: Nov 2009 Cambridge(ish), UK. Posts: 10581 BMW 5x M50d.

    #20 9th December 2012, 11:49

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Bikekid450 Yeah, my RS has an LSD and that works well, Although you do still get a lot of torque steer.

    lol thats because the diff is shit in an RS
    
    Get a decent one in there and it'll transform it.

    1 user thanked this post: monka
21. user_62429 L-plater Joined: Dec 2012 Dunbartonshire Posts: 60 2003 Saxo VTS

    #21 9th December 2012, 14:10

    Ok, so keep the welder away from the diff then lol
    
    Well if anyone is selling there gearbox or LSD please PM me.
    
    Cheers for the reply guys.
22. user_4681 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Dec 2004 Grimsby United Kingdom (England) Posts: 5489 SUPERCHARGED saxo vts

    #22 9th December 2012, 16:55

    would this be good for a gravel or soil rally car?
23. Dave_P Established Member Joined: Dec 2010 Aberdeen Posts: 2129 Race: 106 Rallye 16v. Road: Mercedes Vito 120 CDI

    #23 9th December 2012, 17:04

    Na, I you still need a bit of slip..

    1 user thanked this post: user_4681
24. AlexBp West Midlands Joined: Dec 2007 West mids Posts: 23149 Supra,civic GL

    #24 9th December 2012, 18:02

    plated is the only way
25. MaRiO89 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 7705 Saxo VTS

    #25 9th December 2012, 18:20

    Plated diffs are defo the way to go, but be aware that they need to be setup (ramp angles) and also they dont have a huge lifespan, the plates wear out over time.. For a track car an ATB would be a good choice, just fit it and forget it..

    1 user thanked this post: user_54826
26. user_4681 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Dec 2004 Grimsby United Kingdom (England) Posts: 5489 SUPERCHARGED saxo vts

    #26 9th December 2012, 19:34

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MaRiO89 Plated diffs are defo the way to go, but be aware that they need to be setup (ramp angles) and also they dont have a huge lifespan, the plates wear out over time.. For a track car an ATB would be a good choice, just fit it and forget it..

    they dont wear they just need a re torque from what i have heard.
27. Dave_P Established Member Joined: Dec 2010 Aberdeen Posts: 2129 Race: 106 Rallye 16v. Road: Mercedes Vito 120 CDI

    #27 9th December 2012, 19:42

    Na, the plates wear.

    2 users thanked this post: MaRiO89, user_54826
28. user_4681 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Dec 2004 Grimsby United Kingdom (England) Posts: 5489 SUPERCHARGED saxo vts

    #28 9th December 2012, 20:34

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dave_P Na, the plates wear.

    im confused... whats the re torquing about then?
29. welshpug Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2010 South Wales Posts: 3078 ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.

    #29 9th December 2012, 20:40

    checking the settings.
30. MaRiO89 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 7705 Saxo VTS

    #30 9th December 2012, 20:51

    I dont think you re-torque anything, you get new plates and adjust the ramp angles depending on the settings you require. I'm not 100% as we haven't had to rebuild our diff yet in the rally car, just what i have heard over the years..
31. Dave_P Established Member Joined: Dec 2010 Aberdeen Posts: 2129 Race: 106 Rallye 16v. Road: Mercedes Vito 120 CDI

    #31 9th December 2012, 21:08

    I've never heard of this re torquing you speak of...
32. MaRiO89 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 7705 Saxo VTS

    #32 9th December 2012, 21:11

    Me neither, you just replace the plates once they are worn and adjust the ramp angles to your desired settings.
33. user_4681 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Dec 2004 Grimsby United Kingdom (England) Posts: 5489 SUPERCHARGED saxo vts

    #33 9th December 2012, 21:22

    im sure i was told something along the lines from my tuner that the diff needs to be re torqued to keep the desired amount of grip/slip...
34. axsaxoman Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2003 Scotland Posts: 3380

    #34 10th December 2012, 09:12

    inside a plate dif are spring washers --"belville washers",which look like a distorted flat washer --you adjust the number of these or shim then to get the preoad you require when dif is bolted up
    ramp angles can only be changed by changing the ramp plates ,wear occurs on these as do the friction plates so this why you need to check and adjust the preload on a plate dif ,check it by a torque wrench and see at what torque the dif starts to allow slip
    poorly adjusted dif will cause knocks and clunks and snatching as it locks up --not good for grip or life of the dif components
    a corectly adjuted one should not snatch as it starts to work --or make the car zig -zag --adjust to aorund 890-100lbsft for an MA for best traction --the choices of ramp angles alter the way the dif locks --how suddenly it starts to work
35. atspeedracing Frequent Poster Joined: Aug 2008 ESSEX Posts: 727 106 GTi Turbo

    #35 10th December 2012, 09:39

    ive raced FWD short circuit oval cars with welded diffs before. you would NEVER get away with it on the road with a fwd car, or any form of circuit racing, you'd be snapping shafts like theres no tomorrow.
    when manouevering around the pits for example you have to keep the wheel as straight as possibly, or the shafts break, if its gravel/dirt, its ok as the inner wheel will just slip, but on tarmac, it just breaks something. only reason you get away with it on short tarmac oval, is the cars are only doing one purpose, both corners are near on the same steering input, and the cars are set up with all this in mind, they are only set up to turn right too.
    
    they are certainly a handful though, you know when youve done 30 laps in one thats for sure!!
    
    also they can be quite an experience if one shaft does fail when your still racing.. it goes round like a fly with a wing pulled off lol.
    
    - colin