Important! : Car over fueling! Now with video. Update: MOT results...

3rd February 2013, 17:04

Hello Saxp

I'm updating this thread because my misfire hasn't got any better.

Car has been running with a misfire for a good 3 weeks now, with piss poor MPG and sluggish performance.

Had a couple of codes P0300 fault code - random/multiple misfire and P0105 (I think) Manifold absolute pressure.

So I replaced the Coilpack, made no difference, put on another MAP sensor, made no difference.

Had an MOT, failed on emissions that badly that he couldn't give me a full readout because apparently it clogged the machine. If it helps I can list the results.

Checked the lambdas, they were extremely coked up and noticed two big cracks on my manifold. So no wonder why there was no pressure in the manifold.

Got a secondhand Manifold and Cat, because I assumed that'd be fucked by now, and wiped the codes off and the car was idling considerably smoother, less erratic and put on a new exhaust just because it was fucked. Checked the new plugs to put some copper slip on and they were very coked up, all of them.

Gave it a test drive and the power was still sluggish and the misfire is still there and EML light came back on with P0300 and P0105 again.

Checked under the bonnet and it was making an extremely tappety sound, one of the plugs was lose, tightened them all up, ran a bit better, wiped light off again.

Bit lost now, don't know what to do...

To sum up.

I have so far...

Replaced Coil pack
Replaced MAP sensor
Replaced front Lambda sensor
Replaced Spark Plugs
Replaced Exhaust Manifold
Replaced Catalytic Converter
Replaced entire Centre Section

... Don't know whats next. Getting frustrated, and poor.

Edit, was checking to see what the smoke looked like coming out of the exhaust, and after a warm up there wasn't any smoke at all, but when revved up to about 5000-6000 it kicked out black smoke.

EDIT 2, Took the car out for a test drive and wrongly diagnosed the over fueling for a misfire, when I put the new mani/cat and centre section on my car is kicked out all the stuffing in my back box making it quite loud, and when I revved the engine I assumed the popping and spluttering was from a misfire, but when I listen to my engine directly it's running quite smoothly.

Where do I begin to fix an over fueling issue?

http://s1110.beta.photobucket.com/us...a6105.mp4.html

3rd February 2013, 17:24

Failed coilpack will cause that code, got a spare one laying about?

3rd February 2013, 17:54

I don't i'm afraid. Would that be the cause of the shit MPG?

3rd February 2013, 17:56

yeah it will be if your driving around on a missfire, the MPG will be piss poor to be honest

Also should be able to pick up a coilpack from Euro car parts for round £70

3rd February 2013, 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukus-vtr

I don't i'm afraid would that be the cause of the shit MPG?

Why ask advice then?

And yes it will.

3rd February 2013, 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cam

Why ask advice then?

And yes it will.

Why not? I don't happen to have one lying around, but I will source one.

Thanks for your advice.

6th February 2013, 19:52

i would find a second hand coil pack if shell out stupid money and it dont cure it youll be stuck with it as im sure you cant return electrical items. poeple always put a misfire down to plugs and coil packs it could be many things. mpg is through the roof id suspect an injector has gone down very common fault on saxos

18th February 2013, 12:01

Bump, still need to check Injectors, the misfire is erratic and not consistent.

19th February 2013, 09:57

Edited post. Car is just overfueling now. Advice please.

19th February 2013, 10:02

How do you know it's over fuelling?

19th February 2013, 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_Roberts

How do you know it's over fuelling?

Car smells extremely rich, plugs are all sooty, performance is sluggish, mpg is terrible, exhaust seems to pop.

Edit: Could it be Coolant Temperature Sensor? What does this plug look like and where is it?

19th February 2013, 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukus-vtr

Car smells extremely rich, plugs are all sooty, performance is sluggish, mpg is terrible, exhaust seems to pop.

Edit: Could it be Coolant Temperature Sensor? What does this plug look like and where is it?

Its on your thermostat housing my cts is coloured green later ones I believe are blue.

19th February 2013, 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo67

Its on your thermostat housing my cts is coloured green later ones I believe are blue.

Thanks Steve, do the symptoms I've described fit a CTS fault?

19th February 2013, 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukus-vtr

Thanks Steve, do the symptoms I've described fit a CTS fault?

Yes mate,i`ve got to fit one on mine(when I can arsed too lol)

19th February 2013, 14:16

fuel pressure regulator overfuelling the rail?

19th February 2013, 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

fuel pressure regulator overfuelling the rail?

Fuel pressure regulator... Hm... another thing to add to the list, I think i'll try that and the Coolant Temp Sensor then drive it into a lake.

I will go outside now and record a video of what it sounds like.

Edit: I just realized, I don't even know where it is... Is it on the rail, or under the drivers seat or something!

19th February 2013, 15:24

Early mk1`s the fpr is on the rail,mk2`s its incorporated into the fuel pump.

19th February 2013, 15:49

Does it make any difference unplugging the CTS when the engine is running?

19th February 2013, 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandi699

Does it make any difference unplugging the CTS when the engine is running?

Hey bud, i'll go outside and check now, should it make a difference? What happens if it makes no difference? What am I looking for? Cheers!

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo67

Early mk1`s the fpr is on the rail, mk2`s its incorporated into the fuel pump.

Hey Steve, does this mean I have to replace the whole fuel pump? Is it easy to access? Thanks.

19th February 2013, 18:04

Just unplugged the CTS whilst the engine was running from a cold start, and other then the fan turning on when it was unplugged nothing else changed. Still sounded lumpy, smelt extremely rich, and engine was vibrating quite a bit as well. Even my nephew came outside to see what I was doing and he asked "What smells so nice?"... lol.

19th February 2013, 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukus-vtr

Hey bud, i'll go outside and check now, should it make a difference? What happens if it makes no difference? What am I looking for? Cheers!

Hey Steve, does this mean I have to replace the whole fuel pump? Is it easy to access? Thanks.

Depends on what year your saxo is mate,fuel pump is easy just lift up the rear seat,unscrew the locking ring & disconnect the pipes.

19th February 2013, 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo67

Depends on what year your saxo is mate,fuel pump is easy just lift up the rear seat,unscrew the locking ring & disconnect the pipes.

Thanks Steve, would I have to replace the whole fuel pump or just the regulator?

19th February 2013, 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukus-vtr

Thanks Steve, would I have to replace the whole fuel pump or just the regulator?

If its the later one then the regulator is part of the pump,the earlier ones have the regulator on the end of the injector rail.

19th February 2013, 23:06

Ahh I feared that would be the case. Thank you Stevo. I'm just waiting to see what Gandi699 says about the Coolant Temperature Sensor so I know how to progress..

20th February 2013, 09:18

Bump..

20th February 2013, 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukus-vtr

Hey bud, i'll go outside and check now, should it make a difference? What happens if it makes no difference? What am I looking for? Cheers!

The sensor tells the engine what the temperature is - if the engine thinks it's colder than it really is, it will overfuel. Generally when a sensor breaks, it will fail off - in the case of a temperature sensor, at "0 degrees" or whatever the minimum value is. The ECU reads that as "oh shit, I need more fuel".

20th February 2013, 09:39

This CTS issue - what I was suggesting was to see if it altered the fuelling to any noticeable degree as it'll cause the ECU to run at a "default" setting. It does on mine (yet I still may change it) and it runs a safe rich setting. Easy to change one of these though and they are cheap.
Regarding the FPR, it does come out of the housing which is near the pump on the systems where it isn't up in the fuel rail like the mk1s. As yours is a mk2 it'll be like this I think, to remove it you must pop up the plastic covers under the rear seats and you'll see the housing. You have to remove a spring clip and it'll just be able to be pulled out, a new one just presses in but be aware that it takes some force so you wont be able to do it by hand - I use a brake caliper piston tool to push it in and shove spring clip back to hold it. Any standard FPR from the saxo or 106 range should fit, I used an s2 rallye 3.0 bar one in mine due to using different injectors and it causing massive overfuelling but a normal VTR one is 3.5 bar

Looks like this:

Sits in this:

Might be worth a shot if you can get one cheap

did you say you were getting a video up of it running?

20th February 2013, 10:39

Thank you Ross and Gandi, yes I will get a video of it running today. When I unplugged my CTS it made no difference other then the fan turning on does this mean it's knackered or working? I'd like to change the CTS first as it sounds less like a ball ache than the fuel pump regulator.

20th February 2013, 12:06

If it makes no difference to the running then its knackered mate(the sensor)

20th February 2013, 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo67

If it makes no difference to the running then its knackered mate(the sensor)

This. Likely suspect

20th February 2013, 12:41

I've recorded a video of it running but photobucket is being a bitch so might go out to scrappy now and grab a FPR and CTS.

Edit: Video is now uploaded, see first post

Notice how it splutters and when I gently rev it, the engine vibrates and sounds like it's about to cut out.

20th February 2013, 12:56

Is that the only sensor on the stat housing (the one you unplugged?). I'm not sure if a mk2 only has one as a lot of the gauges etc and fan are ecu controlled

20th February 2013, 13:09

Just pop to a motor factors for a sensor they are only around a tenner I think. No point getting it for a scrapyard they could be knackered as well

20th February 2013, 15:07

Yeah just went to a scrap yard and the one 1.6 they have and the Sensor was knackered.

Oh and Gandi I believe there is one on the right hand side attached to the block, I haven't touched that one as I thought that one controlled the dials and the one on top controlled the ecu.

20th February 2013, 22:53

I've ordered a brand new Temp sensor, I shall update this thread if I get a result. The one I've ordered has two pins yet mine had three however the plug only has two wires coming from it, making one of the pins obsolete, is this correct? The compatibility suited my car.

22nd February 2013, 12:10

Got the temp sensor today, I think it's the wrong one as it only has one pin... So now need to send it back. It's demotivated me that much I think i'm going to just call it a day and break the Saxo for parts.

Will start dismantling in a couple of weeks once I sort out another motor.

It's a black MK2 VTR 2001 3 plug if any one wants any parts for theirs. Will put a for sale thread up.

22nd February 2013, 12:34

Thats a bit extreme, most motor factors will have the right sensor in stock for a few quid. Eurocarparts etc

22nd February 2013, 12:47

I don't think it's just the sensor though, as I started the car up today, and got another couple of fault codes again, and the engine is vibrating quite a lot.

P0105
P0120

22nd February 2013, 15:40

so what has been replaced?

22nd February 2013, 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

The sensor tells the engine what the temperature is - if the engine thinks it's colder than it really is, it will overfuel. Generally when a sensor breaks, it will fail off - in the case of a temperature sensor, at "0 degrees" or whatever the minimum value is. The ECU reads that as "oh shit, I need more fuel".

Which is what I think is happening on mine,on very cold mornings it will cut out unless I keep my foot on the gas.Plus it will stink of fuel,I then have leave it a few mins & it`ll start.

22nd February 2013, 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukus-vtr

I don't think it's just the sensor though, as I started the car up today, and got another couple of fault codes again, and the engine is vibrating quite a lot.

P0105
P0120

105 is a bad MAP signal but can also be a bad TPS...

120 is your TPS BUT 120 can also be a bad MAP connection...

Since you've replace the MAP those codes suggest your TPS has gone duff and it's running in open loop fuelling based entirely on MAP.

Also, I hope it was an OEM map sensor you got, these cheap ones you get from ebay OFTEN give incorrect readings and the car runs rich.

22nd February 2013, 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

105 is a bad MAP signal but can also be a bad TPS...

120 is your TPS BUT 120 can also be a bad MAP connection...

Since you've replace the MAP those codes suggest your TPS has gone duff and it's running in open loop fuelling based entirely on MAP.

Also, I hope it was an OEM map sensor you got, these cheap ones you get from ebay OFTEN give incorrect readings and the car runs rich.

Hi Martin, thanks for the post. The MAP sensor I got was an OEM bosch part if I recall but was a second hand unit. Suppose I could try and get a replacement throttle position sensor...

Oh and Gandi, since my last post I haven't replaced anything. I bought a new CTS but they sent the wrong one, seems to have gotten worse since the car is just sat. Possibly because it's building up with carbon?

Edit: Just checked Eurocarparts and the CTS you can buy off there looks exactly the same as the wrong one that was delivered, so now i'm questioning whether the one I bought is correct or not...

My plug has three pins...

22nd February 2013, 17:38

Your CTS is green no?

you've bought one for your temp guage there anyways - even if I'm wrong about the cts.

22nd February 2013, 17:41

As above the one i`ve just bought from eurocarparts is green with 2 offset pins.

22nd February 2013, 19:06

Im pretty sure my CTS is blue..

22nd February 2013, 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukus-vtr

Im pretty sure my CTS is blue..

you have two CTS sensors.

one is for the ECU (green)

the other is for the dash guage and warning light. (blue)

I just looked at my car

even my 1.5D is set up like that.

22nd February 2013, 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

you have two CTS sensors.

one is for the ECU (green)

the other is for the dash guage and warning light. (blue)

I just looked at my car

even my 1.5D is set up like that.

Same as mine.

22nd February 2013, 19:45

Look at my video on the first page, I unplug, what I thought is the cts for the ecu. And if I recall its blue. I'm confused now lol.

22nd February 2013, 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukus-vtr

Look at my video on the first page, I unplug, what I thought is the cts for the ecu. And if I recall its blue. I'm confused now lol.

That is your CTS, it's a 3 pin type for later models.

there are three CTS sensors on the car.

blue 2 pin (or single) for guages.

Green 2 pin OR 3 pin blue one for the ECU

and one for the fan.

As you can see, your CTS isn't the problem as when you un plugged it your engine still ran rough as buggery.

22nd February 2013, 20:24

So if you unplug your CTS nothing changes? I've just done it on mine and the car will rev up a bit as the ecu loses the signal and goes to a default. Plug it back in and it settles down again

22nd February 2013, 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

That is your CTS, it's a 3 pin type for later models.

there are three CTS sensors on the car.

blue 2 pin (or single) for guages.

Green 2 pin OR 3 pin blue one for the ECU

and one for the fan.

As you can see, your CTS isn't the problem as when you un plugged it your engine still ran rough as buggery.

Oh right so I do have the correct sensor.. but the one for the gauges and not the ecu, so it's no help to me then... great lol. I was under the impression that if I unplugged it and nothing changed then my sensor was knackered?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandi699

So if you unplug your CTS nothing changes? I've just done it on mine and the car will rev up a bit as the ecu loses the signal and goes to a default. Plug it back in and it settles down again

I replugged and unplugged the sensor in earlier to see if the one I bought fit, and I thought I heard a subtle shift in revs. I'll double check tomorrow because I didn't know if I was just forcing my self to listen for differences.

22nd February 2013, 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukus-vtr

Oh right so I do have the correct sensor.. but the one for the gauges and not the ecu, so it's no help to me then... great lol. I was under the impression that if I unplugged it and nothing changed then my sensor was knackered?

I replugged and unplugged the sensor in earlier to see if the one I bought fit, and I thought I heard a subtle shift in revs. I'll double check tomorrow because I didn't know if I was just forcing my self to listen for differences.

hmm, not sure if there's a difference there. it should make it run rougher than it already is if you unplug it...

if it makes no difference then it could be the sensor is gone :o

ohh i'm confused.

22nd February 2013, 23:56

If the sensor was unplugged and nothing change that points to something else being up, whats it do if you unplug the TPS?

23rd February 2013, 00:08

It's running so shit you probably can't see any difference

Certainly the codes indicate a TPS fault.

23rd February 2013, 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

It's running so shit you probably can't see any difference

Certainly the codes indicate a TPS fault.

Haha you're not wrong!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandi699

If the sensor was unplugged and nothing change that points to something else being up, whats it do if you unplug the TPS?

I will unplug the TPS tomorrow and write down what happens, I don't even know where abouts it is. Never knew there were so many sensors to fanny around with. It's driving me mad!

Thanks Guys

23rd February 2013, 01:21

The TPS is connected directly to the throttle bUtterfly, it's directly opposite where the throttle cable connects on the other side of the inlet

23rd February 2013, 13:05

Had a look at my tps this morning with the intention of buying a new one,to find that mine is a different design to most saxo`s.Eurocarparts don`t stock them,anyway I gently pushed a connector on the tps & the car fired up 1st time with no spluttering.

23rd February 2013, 21:33

Had a bit of a result today. Fired the car up and it sounded horrendous, like, it scared me that much I had to jam the fuel cut off because it just sounded like it was about to explode lol. Obviously I was being dramatic, so I checked the plugs to find they weren't in very tight so placed them all together in the coil pack outside the engine to test the quality of the spark and sure enough only one spark plug was igniting with my old coil pack. So I had a play with my spare to find that it improved to three sparks but they weren't a very confident spark. So I wire brushed all the plugs and squirted a bit of WD-40 into each of the connectors and all 4 then delivered nice bright sparks, placed them in properly and the engine was running considerably smoother. Still smelt extremely rich though, but this could just be getting rid of all the shit in the engine and exhaust? After it warmed up it smelt fine. The car is still running slightly lumpy but I noticed gas was escaping from the manifold so I don't think it was put on properly, i'm going to remove it tomorrow and tighten it up correctly, maybe with some exhaust gum? And maybe that will clear the blotchyness...

Will update accordingly.

23rd February 2013, 21:58

You need a manifold gasket mate,don`t use gum gum.

23rd February 2013, 23:18

O.k I won't, don't want to bodge it, I want to do it properly. Steve could you link me to a good place to get the manifold gasket and the gasket that sits between the manifold and the cat? There's some really cheapo ones on eBay and i'm a bit skeptical.

Oh btw, when people say go and get the part from Citroen, how do you go about doing that? Do you actually go into a Citroen showroom and ask them for the part you need?

Thanks

24th February 2013, 10:48

You`re best off going into a citroen dealership & asking for the parts department give them your reg number & they`ll sort you out with the correct parts.Or going to eurocarparts & again give them your reg number & you`ll get the correct parts mate(possibly cheaper too)

24th February 2013, 18:57

They have a parts desk that you go into, usually on the same premises as the showroom

25th February 2013, 10:12

Update! Had my MOT retest this morning and it failed again on emissions.

I'll type out the machine read out to put things into perspective on how catastrophically this thing is over fueling.

Hydrocarbons: Maximum limit is 200 PPM - Car scored 6420 PPM
CO: Maximum limit is less than 0.3% - Car scored 10%
Lambda: Limit is 0.97-1.03 - Car scored 0.73

I don't know if putting the read outs will help, but hopefully someone can make sense of it...

25th February 2013, 10:32

To the op is your air filter a sooty black colour?Because if the manifold isn`t sealing then exhaust gases will be sucked back up,this may cause the emissions failure.

25th February 2013, 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo67

To the op is your air filter a sooty black colour?Because if the manifold isn`t sealing then exhaust gases will be sucked back up,this may cause the emissions failure.

Hello again Stevo,

I have this chavvy Pipercross open sponge filter on it (was on when I bought it) but never caused any problems passing MOT before, If i wipe my finger along it, I do get a bit of black on my finger.

The manifold isn't sorted yet I didn't realize that could possibly have such drastic results?

So you're saying the Air filter is sucking up the exhaust gases caused from the leak between the head and mani?... Never even considered this.

25th February 2013, 10:50

Until you told me about the pipercross I thought you had a standard set-up,however it won`t do you any arm to clean the filter I had the same problem on an old metro with a cracked manifold.In the end the car bogged down & ran like a tractor until I had the manifold sealed,looked inside the air box & the filter was black to get me home(10 miles)I removed the air filter.

25th February 2013, 10:56

you really need to get that leak sorted before even attempting to get another MOT on the car. I'm surprised they even bothered going as far as the emissions test if its leaking gasses from the manifold

25th February 2013, 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandi699

you really need to get that leak sorted before even attempting to get another MOT on the car. I'm surprised they even bothered going as far as the emissions test if its leaking gasses from the manifold

This is my point mate its the leaking manifold thats causing the emissions failure.

25th February 2013, 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandi699

you really need to get that leak sorted before even attempting to get another MOT on the car. I'm surprised they even bothered going as far as the emissions test if its leaking gasses from the manifold

It was retest and a gas leak from the manifold wasn't on the advisory list (which I was disappointed at because I had to find it my self) so they didn't even open the bonnet, they just wacked the pipe straight onto the exhaust, but you're right, i've got someone coming over tomorrow to try and seal it up once and for all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo67

This is my point mate its the leaking manifold thats' causing the emissions failure.

I "bodged" a cold air feed to the inlet via a clean vacuum cleaner tube and sealed with a half cut rubber glove lol... and pointed it far away from any harmful gases, It's all I could think of on the spot! So be nice haha. Anyway if i'm honest it sounded a lot better. The engine vibrated a lot less and revved quite nicely, wouldn't return to idle very well though (Because of no filter?). Wouldn't of been able to tell if this is what cured it without giving it a spin but there was no way I was going to do that with a precariously placed hoover nozzle in my bay. So maybe, this has finally identified the problem?