Head Gasket / Spark Plug / Water problem.

25th February 2013, 09:42

Gents!

This is a diagnostic from the 1.4 8v (TU5 engine i think) from the furio and 106 quicksilver.

So the problem started with the usual head gasket signs, over heating, the yellow/white substance under the rocker cover oil cap, oil sneaking into places it shouldn't etc

So the car was stripped to head gasket level and there wasn't a scratch wrong with it. neverthelessthe head gasket was replaced, compression ratio etc was checked and is all fine.

Now, this is where the strange problem has started. there was a bit of a power issue on the drive in. one of the wells in which the spark plugs sit is full of water. now i'm faily sure this is the good reason for the performance problem and potential over heating although it does not explain the white substance all over the oil tank.

After reading up online, the only way to get water into the sparkplug is by pressure washing the car, the car was washed a few weeks ago but it seems a bit of a long stretch?

So saxp, can anyone help me with this?

25th February 2013, 09:46

Does your water level decrease in the expension tank?

25th February 2013, 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mochachino

Does your water level decrease in the expension tank?

erm, i don't know.
How can i check this?

25th February 2013, 09:54

The normal rad expansion tank, you know where you put water n check the level on the rad?

25th February 2013, 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mochachino

The normal rad expansion tank, you know where you put water n check the level on the rad?

Thanks. Its not been checked. This will need to be filled and checked over a bit of time I guess.

If it is going down, what does this mean?

25th February 2013, 10:00

Well depends how much its going down and depending if your overhesting still.

Could be a cracked head or the water channals inside have corroded or cracked and you have water seeping out to where it shouldnt be.

25th February 2013, 10:01

Well depends how much its going down and depending if your overhesting still.

Could be a cracked head or the water channals inside have corroded or cracked and you have water seeping out to where it shouldnt be.

25th February 2013, 10:07

Sounds like two problems here, theres no coolant pathway through the inlet manifold or indeed anywhere near the spark plug holes so I reckon its water from the pressure washer -should have tasted it to see if its coolant.
Compression test will only show that the cylinder sealing is good. If theres an internal crack in the block or head thats allowing oil and water to mix, it may not show this. The alloy engines uses sealed in liners, could possibly be one of these leaking at a long shot which will allow water into the oil and vice versa, creating your mayo gunk

25th February 2013, 10:13

The water is dropping in the rad, only by a little bit, but if its brimmed then driven round a bit, the level does drop.

multiple failures is what i'm thinking. That said though the gasket was in really good nick, the washing of the car is probably the closest guess. If its got a leaky seal and had a lof of water pummelling it, it could get into the tank and create all the gunk. Its still a bit strange though because any further into the engine and it looked immaculate, like nothing was wrong with it at all. I'd of expected the gunk to be everywhere over the internals?

25th February 2013, 10:16

all depends how bad the problem is. How much does the level drop by? Usually they settle a bit after bleeding but then they stay at around the same level

25th February 2013, 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandi699

Sounds like two problems here, theres no coolant pathway through the inlet manifold or indeed anywhere near the spark plug holes so I reckon its water from the pressure washer -should have tasted it to see if its coolant.
Compression test will only show that the cylinder sealing is good. If theres an internal crack in the block or head thats allowing oil and water to mix, it may not show this. The alloy engines uses sealed in liners, could possibly be one of these leaking at a long shot which will allow water into the oil and vice versa, creating your mayo gunk

But the head gasket has been replaced, would this not rule out the latter of the seals leaking?

25th February 2013, 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandi699

all depends how bad the problem is. How much does the level drop by? Usually they settle a bit after bleeding but then they stay at around the same level

Not a lot. just a little.
Its not been monitored over a decent time yet though.

25th February 2013, 10:25

Not if the leak lies elsewhere though, head gasket can be sealing just fine but if a liner has popped a seal/been disturbed then coolant can mix into the oil. Same thing as having a crack somewhere in the block/head, which can be a pain to track down as it may only open up when it gets hot. When I had a K-series with a disturbed liner though, it would emulsify its oil almost instantly as the water pump was forcing coolant past the now broken seal under the liner

25th February 2013, 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandi699

Not if the leak lies elsewhere though, head gasket can be sealing just fine but if a liner has popped a seal/been disturbed then coolant can mix into the oil. Same thing as having a crack somewhere in the block/head, which can be a pain to track down as it may only open up when it gets hot. When I had a K-series with a disturbed liner though, it would emulsify its oil almost instantly as the water pump was forcing coolant past the now broken seal under the liner

ah right. cheers for that mate.

25th February 2013, 10:44

for now. two things are being done

1 - emptying the water from the spark plug socket, replacing the spark, cleaning the oil tank and replacing th eoil
2 - keeping an eye on both the water level in the radiator and the rocker cover oil cap (for any signs of gunk)

25th February 2013, 10:56

This oil tank you refer to, what is this?

25th February 2013, 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandi699

This oil tank you refer to, what is this?

rocker cover.

25th February 2013, 23:19

Why are you going to clean the rocker cover?

25th February 2013, 23:44

8V engines are famous for lots of gunk on the oil cap if you do short journeys.

it'll be condensation and OP is over-reacting imo

Water levels usually drop anyway because the water evaporates. when you brim it, it spills over so it appears as a loss too.

26th February 2013, 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mochachino

Why are you going to clean the rocker cover?

it's covered in gunk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

8V engines are famous for lots of gunk on the oil cap if you do short journeys.

it'll be condensation and OP is over-reacting imo

Water levels usually drop anyway because the water evaporates. when you brim it, it spills over so it appears as a loss too.

yeah. that's why a bit of time was needed to monitor the water levels for a few days

update
i think the problem has been found. the termostat had seized in the closed position so no coolant was getting round. The radiator was also near empty because the termostat was closed only the first section of the radiator could be filled.

27th February 2013, 09:29

So the system wasn't bled using the header tank method then? otherwise it would have been noticed that the bottle didnt fill up with coolant.
Either way easy fix and a 10 minute job

28th February 2013, 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandi699

So the system wasn't bled using the header tank method then? otherwise it would have been noticed that the bottle didnt fill up with coolant.
Either way easy fix and a 10 minute job

The rad was filling with water, but because the thermostat was siezed the only part of the rad that was filling up was the first section. The rest was an air bubble. Which is probably why the car was overheating all the time.

28th February 2013, 12:29

I see where you are coming from but if it had been bled up with the header tank method, it probably would have been noticed that the stat was stuck shut as the car is run to get it hot

28th February 2013, 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandi699

I see where you are coming from but if it had been bled up with the header tank method, it probably would have been noticed that the stat was stuck shut as the car is run to get it hot

what's the heater tank method?

28th February 2013, 15:28

you fill the coolant up with a 2l pop/coke bottle cut in half shoved in the filler neck of the radiator so its the highest point in the system. This ensures that when the car is run up to temp and the stat opens that the air in the system bleeds out to the highest point. Then you just let it cool once done and top up or remove a bit of coolant if necessary, and dead easy to do. Citroen do a proper head tank that fits where the rad cap would be but to me its hardly worth it when you can make one for pennies.

28th February 2013, 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandi699

you fill the coolant up with a 2l pop/coke bottle cut in half shoved in the filler neck of the radiator so its the highest point in the system. This ensures that when the car is run up to temp and the stat opens that the air in the system bleeds out to the highest point. Then you just let it cool once done and top up or remove a bit of coolant if necessary, and dead easy to do. Citroen do a proper head tank that fits where the rad cap would be but to me its hardly worth it when you can make one for pennies.

ah right - no i never even thought of that mate.

1st March 2013, 17:41

kinda sounds like your head has cracked mate

1st March 2013, 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by hobers4

kinda sounds like your head has cracked mate

Does it? He said the issues was resolved