wobble bolts

22nd April 2013, 22:51

any experiences? i'm going from 4x100 to 4x101.4. I've heard they can be fitted directly. but wobble bolts work better.

any advice would be greatly appreciated.

22nd April 2013, 22:57

Depends on how much you plan on paying for the wobble bolts mate. The cheaper ones are known to fail and can round off so they have to be drilled out.

22nd April 2013, 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bedford126

Depends on how much you plan on paying for the wobble bolts mate. The cheaper ones are known to fail and can round off so they have to be drilled out.

what's considered 'cheap'? i have no idea about this subject.

22nd April 2013, 23:14

cheap is 60-100 per set. My mate just paid £300 for a set and in his words they aren't the best.

22nd April 2013, 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bedford126

cheap is 60-100 per set. My mate just paid £300 for a set and in his words they aren't the best.

that's my plan out the window then. I'll just fit them directly. 100 to 101.4 should be fine shouldn't it?

23rd April 2013, 06:16

Depends on the type of bolt seat in the wheel, how close the fitting of the centre bore is on the hub, how much risk you wanna take really.

23rd April 2013, 08:21

If its fine, the wheel hubs or the wheel must be bollcked. That's quite a margin for error.

23rd April 2013, 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bedford126

cheap is 60-100 per set. My mate just paid £300 for a set and in his words they aren't the best.

Were they gold plated? Wobble bolts are basically the same price as normal bolts. If he spent £300, he may as well just have bought some decent quality adapters.

23rd April 2013, 08:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadoryu

If its fine, the wheel hubs or the wheel must be bollcked. That's quite a margin for error.

1.4mm is a big margin for error?

23rd April 2013, 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stissy

1.4mm is a big margin for error?

Wheel bolts are 12mm. 1.4mm is over 10% of 12mm. So yeah - a big margin. You'd not want 10% movement in a brake disk/bearing would you...

23rd April 2013, 09:57

Put it this way, if you had a 10% error as Ross said on your car on everything. The car would be fucked. Manufacturing tolererances are small for a reason.

23rd April 2013, 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

Wheel bolts are 12mm. 1.4mm is over 10 of 12mm. So yeah - a big margin. You'd not want 10 movement in a brake disk/bearing would you...

But the 1.4mm is in (lets say) the X direction in relation to each bolt. where as the 12mm would be in the Z direction.

23rd April 2013, 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stissy

But the 1.4mm is in (lets say) the X direction in relation to each bolt. where as the 12mm would be in the Z direction.

Feel free to ignore the advice and fit them anyway. You'll probably be ok. Maybe. I wouldn't do it though.

If you do what most of sax-p do though and make a post saying "thoughts?" or "advice please" and then get angry when the answers don't align to your expectations I'll not be completely surprised lol.

23rd April 2013, 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stissy

But the 1.4mm is in (lets say) the X direction in relation to each bolt. where as the 12mm would be in the Z direction.

Its all in the same direction

Its the pcd being incorrect
Youll basically be on a tiny portion of the taper seating the wheel
You also put a lateral shear force on the bolt as you tighten it up so as soon as you drive you put HUGE stresses on the bolts they may just snap

23rd April 2013, 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexB

Its all in the same direction

Its the pcd being incorrect
Youll basically be on a tiny portion of the taper seating the wheel
You also put a lateral shear force on the bolt as you tighten it up so as soon as you drive you put HUGE stresses on the bolts they may just snap

Thanks mate. But you're 1.4mm out, on a PCD that is 100mm. So thats 1.4 percent not 10. On top of that, are you not subjecting the bolts to the same stressed when lowering a car? If your drive shafts (for example) are sitting lower then the bolts at the top and bottom of the wheel are put under high stress each time the wheel rotates. Cyclic loading has a much bigger effect than constant load too.

23rd April 2013, 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stissy

Thanks mate. But you're 1.4mm out, on a PCD that is 100mm. So thats 1.4 percent not 10. On top of that, are you not subjecting the bolts to the same stressed when lowering a car? If your drive shafts (for example) are sitting lower then the bolts at the top and bottom of the wheel are put under high stress each time the wheel rotates. Cyclic loading has a much bigger effect than constant load too.

Thanks for confirming you have NO idea what your on about

Where did i say percentages
And the shaft angle doesnt effect the wheel bolts at all cause theres a nice cv joint and hub bearing between so they dont

Facts are
Your twisting the wheel bolts when you do them up if the pcds differ even a fraction of a mm

1.4mm might not seen much to your stupid mind but to a trained engineer whos worked for the likes of bilstien and last year was head machinist ay a tuning company i know its enough to cause huge issues

But hey
Im wrong

Go on put your wheels on
Dont come crying when they fall off

23rd April 2013, 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexB

Thanks for confirming you have NO idea what your on about

Where did i say percentages
And the shaft angle doesnt effect the wheel bolts at all cause theres a nice cv joint and hub bearing between so they dont

Facts are
Your twisting the wheel bolts when you do them up if the pcds differ even a fraction of a mm

1.4mm might not seen much to your stupid mind but to a trained engineer whos worked for the likes of bilstien and last year was head machinist ay a tuning company i know its enough to cause huge issues

But hey
Im wrong

Go on put your wheels on
Dont come crying when they fall off

alright mate no need to bitch.

i did say "thanks mate" at the start of my post. i don't think it really quantifies you to start insulting me. But either way, lets get this over and done with.

i'll break this down for you so its nice and easy. You didn't say anything about percentages, however, read the whole thread. we'll start there. Let me know when you've done that.

Facts are, i'm not an expert in wheel bolts, if i was, i wouldn't be asking for help on a forum

Finally, you're an engineer? tell me, which awarding body gave you that title? Or are you just claiming to be an engineer with no proof? Engineer should be a proteted title, to stop people like you pretending to be something they're not. The man who fitted my sky box is an 'engineer' - so hey, what do you know? without proof of your capabilities, probably not much.

23rd April 2013, 13:41

Well
I studied my advanced modern apprenticeship under a college in nuneaton (north warwickshire and hinkley) its a nationally recognised qualification (counts as a btec btw)
I did 4 years training
I run machines set and programme parts currently for the aerospace industry

So yea
Im an engineer
Not sone fool with screwdrivers claiming to be

I understand material stresses

Ill simply put this
If you use oe bolts on the wrong pcd its highly likely they will fail
Id read the thread
You directly quoted me then spouted about percentages so i took that as you trying to correct something i didnt say

As said by me and several others its a bad idea
You seem to think itll be fine even though your asking advice saying im no expert on wheels ect

Its simple physics and maths

If you have an angle (the taper of the bolt) apply force in a vertical direction (tightening the bolt) it triesbto push to the side

Now when the pcd is correct and the bolt seats properly this isnt an issue as the exact same happens the other side so the bolt isnt stressed

Now take away one sides force by having the incorrect pcd you get lateral stress

On a wheel with a 60 degree taper you get roughly 1/3 transfer
So ay 90ft/lb (what i torque mine too) thats 30ft/lb laterally on the bolt

23rd April 2013, 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexB

Well
I studied my advanced modern apprenticeship under a college in nuneaton (north warwickshire and hinkley) its a nationally recognised qualification
I did 4 years training
I run machines set and programme parts currently for the aerospace industry

So yea
Im an engineer
Not sone fool with screwdrivers claiming to be

I understand matetial stresses

Ill simply put this
If you use oe bolts on the wrong pcd its highly likely they will fail
Id read the thread
You directly quoted me then spouted about percentages so i took that as you trying to correct something i didnt say

As said by me and several others its a bad idea
You seem to think itll be fine even though your asking advice saying im no expert on wheels ect

Its simple physics and maths

If you have an angle (the taper of the bolt) apply force in a vertical direction (tightening the bolt) it triesbto push to the side

Now when the pcd is correct and the bolt seats properly this isnt an issue as the exact same happens the other side so the bolt isnt stressed

Now take away one sides force by having the incorrect pcd you get lateral stress

On a wheel with a 60 degree taper you get roughly 1/3 transfer
So ay 90ft/lb (what i torque mine too) thats 30ft/lb laterally on the bolt

mate i was asking for some advice. that's all. I understand completely what you're saying with regards to the sheer stress on the bolt, even though your calculations are way off.

i've never really worked on car suspension, i've dabbled, but never properly worked, i assumed having driveshafts lower than wheels would give high stress on the bolts too, but when you think about it, the wheels just camber, which keeps them straight, so there's no increased stress at all.

4 years training on what (i assume) to be an NVQlvl3 or similar does not make you an engineer. sorry to be the one to break it to you. but you are in fact "sone fool with screwdrivers claiming to be".

23rd April 2013, 13:56

Nvq level 5 btec national level and 5 years on the job making components and improvimg

Yes i dont sit and do the full working of the final parts but i used to get involved in design processes at TTS so that is

Im not just an operator pleb as you probably imagine

And ok so lets drop this anyway fuck it im not an engineer in your eyes
Im still right
And my advice still stands
Dont run oe bolts in the wrong pcd wheels

Im not the only one saying that

But hey feel free to try it
You may get away with it as ross says but i doubt it personally i see a failiure coming your way....

23rd April 2013, 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stissy

4 years training on what (i assume) to be an NVQlvl3 or similar does not make you an engineer. sorry to be the one to break it to you. but you are in fact "sone fool with screwdrivers claiming to be".

Lol is all I can say to this.
You really have no idea.

And tbh also being an engineer I agree with everything he says...
Oh wait am i an engineer in your eyes sitting here with my Btec, HNC, C&G2800 and nvq lvl3?

Some of the best engineers I've ever worked with are just time served apprentices with no qualifications..

What qualifications do you have to question his?

23rd April 2013, 14:00

i'm only winding you up mate haha - thanks for the help.
be a little less touchy next time though yeah?

23rd April 2013, 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by gazza808

Lol is all I can say to this.
You really have no idea.

And tbh also being an engineer I agree with everything he says...
Oh wait am i an engineer in your eyes sitting here with my Btec, HNC, C&G2800 and nvq lvl3?

Some of the best engineers I've ever worked with are just time served apprentices with no qualifications..

What qualifications do you have to question his?

Not you as well... To be an Engineer you have to be given that title by an awarding body. Qualifications aren't really too relevant as you could have some fresh faced graduate with 100 degrees against some hard working man with no degrees but 40 years experience. So its all taken into consideration. Its about showing your competency.

As i said above: To be an Engineer you have to be given that title by an awarding body. Which means, you should have letters after your name from the Engineering Council. If you/he does, then fair enough. If not, you're not an engineer.

23rd April 2013, 14:05

Well when im right and you argue im gunna get touchy
Especially when your so wrong its damgerous to every car near you on the road

What you should do
Is fit your wheels how you want
Then go to an MOT test

See if they fail it

They will......

23rd April 2013, 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexB

Well when im right and you argue im gunna get touchy
Especially when your so wrong its damgerous to every car near you on the road

What you should do
Is fit your wheels how you want
Then go to an MOT test

See if they fail it

They will......

Yes mate you're right. Thanks for your help. Top job.

23rd April 2013, 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stissy

Not you as well... To be an Engineer you have to be given that title by an awarding body. Qualifications aren't really too relevant as you could have some fresh faced graduate with 100 degrees against some hard working man with no degrees but 40 years experience. So its all taken into consideration. Its about showing your competency.

As i said above: To be an Engineer you have to be given that title by an awarding body. Which means, you should have letters after your name from the Engineering Council. If you/he does, then fair enough. If not, you're not an engineer.

In that case a lot of the top engineers in the country employed by engineering companies doing things in massive sectors of the engineering market arent...

I agree
Lots of people go oh im an engineer when they plug wires into boxes for a living

But imo an engineer is someone who can competently design and manifacture a component with understanding of material stresses and fatuiges ect

I designed and made a 2 stroke 25cc engine powered by compressed air from scratch then used it to power a winch
Machined and designed all my own parts

It was my final project
I think most people capable of that would say they are engineers

23rd April 2013, 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexB

In that case a lot of the top engineers in the country employed by engineering companies doing things in massive sectors of the engineering market arent...

I agree
Lots of people go oh im an engineer when they plug wires into boxes for a living

But imo an engineer is someone who can competently design and manifacture a component with understanding of material stresses and fatuiges ect

I designed and made a 2 stroke 25cc engine powered by compressed air from scratch then used it to power a winch
Machined and designed all my own parts

It was my final project
I think most people capable of that would say they are engineers

No! What the fuck?
Firstly, your opinion is not valid. You are not an engineer.
Secondly, just think about what you said. "if i can design and build something i'm an engineer"
Thirdly, see point 1.

I know a man who could sit you down and talk for hours on end about engineering design for manufacture. He could explain stresses and strains in materials you didn't even know existed (even with your not quite degree level qualification). Then calculate them for you - while explaining it in a way that makes it very simple to understand. However, you give that man a socket set and he'd ask him to take your rocker cover off he'd have no idea. He is an engineer, just because he's not the most dexterous person doesn't mean he's not an engineer. This is partly the reason the engineering council exists. It's to award people that recognition.

EDIT: i like the way our pictures sort of match

23rd April 2013, 14:55

Well go explain the wheel nut idea to your mate

He will agree with me

Thats the point of this thread

23rd April 2013, 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexB

Well go explain the wheel nut idea to your mate

He will agree with me

Thats the point of this thread

He's not a mate, just someone i worked with.

You need to re-read what i'm saying. i completely understand what you're saying. I just reckon the slight (and it is slight) difference won't be enough to matter.

23rd April 2013, 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stissy

He's not a mate, just someone i worked with.

You need to re-read what i'm saying. i completely understand what you're saying. I just reckon the slight (and it is slight) difference won't be enough to matter.

If you completely understood what Alex was saying, you would realise that the 'slight' (read massive) difference will matter.

23rd April 2013, 15:05

It will be enough though
Thats what im saying
Slight is .1 of a mm
0.7 on a 12mm bolt is huge
Your going off the 100 pcd its 101.4 so 1.4 too large 0.7 per side
Thats enough to twist the bolt head as you torque up the wheel

23rd April 2013, 15:13

Fuck me. This guy is a dick. Take the advice given to you. And stop hacking down other people.

If I wanted to be checked out by a doctor, I'm not too sure I would go to see my physics teacher. He has a Dr before his name. Title's are irrelevant, knowledge is. Just because someone hasn't been certificated, needed to be or wanted to be, doesn't mean they know fuck all. The guy above knows what he's talking about and can clearly work with his hands. So good theory and good practical skills makes him the guy for the job, now tell me why he is wrong?

23rd April 2013, 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexB

It will be enough though
Thats what im saying
Slight is .1 of a mm
0.7 on a 12mm bolt is huge
Your going off the 100 pcd its 101.4 so 1.4 too large 0.7 per side
Thats enough to twist the bolt head as you torque up the wheel

12mm is the bolt dia not bolt length then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by HD7

Fuck me. This guy is a dick. Take the advice given to you. And stop hacking down other people.

If I wanted to be checked out by a doctor, I'm not too sure I would go to see my physics teacher. He has a Dr before his name. Title's are irrelevant, knowledge is. Just because someone hasn't been certificated, needed to be or wanted to be, doesn't mean they know fuck all. The guy above knows what he's talking about and can clearly work with his hands. So good theory and good practical skills makes him the guy for the job, now tell me why he is wrong?

I think you're getting things mixed up mate. There's a difference between qualification and accreditation. Look it up, then get back to me if you have any more questions

23rd April 2013, 15:22

Yes
Theyre m12
The effective diameter is smaller than that though
M12 x 1.25 so the teeth of the thread across the bolt takes away material

Iirc (pulling this one out my arse tbh) thats around 10.8 mm on a standard angle thread (im probably wrong) so thats how thick your bolt actually is

23rd April 2013, 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexB

Yes
Theyre m12
The effective diameter is smaller than that though
M12 x 1.25 so the teeth of the thread across the bolt takes away material

Iirc (pulling this one out my arse tbh) thats around 10.8 mm on a standard angle thread (im probably wrong) so thats how thick your bolt actually is

Right, I'm starting to understand even more what you're saying. Lets take this all the way. Hear me out on this:

So an M12 bolt. Which is 10.8mm dia at its thinnest point.

The next question: where abouts along the bolt shaft are you assuming the bolt will 'have its head twisted off as the wheel is torqued up' ? Do you mean literally at the head of the bolt?

23rd April 2013, 15:28

The point the thread stops and the taper starts ypur effectively trying to bend the head towards the centre of the wheel

23rd April 2013, 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexB

The point the thread stops and the taper starts ypur effectively trying to bend the head towards the centre of the wheel

yeah i can picture what you mean mate.

So thats a sheer force on the bolt right? In simple terms (and thinking about a bolt right on the centre line at at the top of the wheel) you're fixing one end and applying a downwards force to the other end?

23rd April 2013, 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stissy

12mm is the bolt dia not bolt length then?

I think you're getting things mixed up mate. There's a difference between qualification and accreditation. Look it up, then get back to me if you have any more questions

I don't have 'questions' you're just a patronising dickhead. You're assuming anyone who doesn't have an accreditation doesn't know what they are talking about. Just because your football coach isn't mourinho doesn't mean he doesn't know what he is talking about.

23rd April 2013, 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by HD7

I don't have 'questions' you're just a patronising dickhead. You're assuming anyone who doesn't have an accreditation doesn't know what they are talking about. Just because your football coach isn't mourinho doesn't mean he doesn't know what he is talking about.

there's no need to be nasty.

23rd April 2013, 16:52

Why are you still arguing this?

You know it's not right but you don't like the answers you're getting. Just go fit the things.

You'll either get away with it (and come back here letting us all know how you've done 100,000 miles on that setup and it's been fine) or it wont (and we'll excitedly read the "my wheels just fell off" thread...

23rd April 2013, 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

Why are you still arguing this?

You know it's not right but you don't like the answers you're getting. Just go fit the things.

You'll either get away with it (and come back here letting us all know how you've done 100,000 miles on that setup and it's been fine) or it wont (and we'll excitedly read the "my wheels just fell off" thread...

the arguing has stopped.

I'm now reading alexb's posts explaining it to me.

23rd April 2013, 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stissy

there's no need to be nasty.

Irony. LOL @ you when your wheels fall off

23rd April 2013, 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stissy

yeah i can picture what you mean mate.

So thats a sheer force on the bolt right? In simple terms (and thinking about a bolt right on the centre line at at the top of the wheel) you're fixing one end and applying a downwards force to the other end?

Basically sheer is lateral force sideways on the bolt (actually he wheel holes forcing the bolts towards the centre of the wheels)
So yea basically as youve described its waiting to snap

25th April 2013, 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexB

Basically sheer is lateral force sideways on the bolt (actually he wheel holes forcing the bolts towards the centre of the wheels)
So yea basically as youve described its waiting to snap

Right, I've got you. So... Next question. What sort of load amount is being applied to the bolts? and what material are they made from?

25th April 2013, 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

Feel free to ignore the advice and fit them anyway. You'll probably be ok. Maybe. I wouldn't do it though.

If you do what most of sax-p do though and make a post saying "thoughts?" or "advice please" and then get angry when the answers don't align to your expectations I'll not be completely surprised lol.

25th April 2013, 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stissy

Right, I've got you. So... Next question. What sort of load amount is being applied to the bolts? and what material are they made from?

Bolts tend to be alloy
And load wise how well do the centre bores fit the hub
As if the pcd is incorrect id assume that is too

If they are snug using spogots ect its like i briefly explained previously as you torque up tou put a static load on of if im correct 1/3 of what your torquing the wheels up too

So about 30ft/lb which is just the car sat stationary
Then as your driving wheelbolts are subjected to quite a few other forces
As you accelerate you attempt to spin the hub in the wheel
Same braking but the force is the other way
Cornering pulls at the top wheel bolts aswell so stressing them outward

If the centre bores arent as snug the load amount is then effected by the weight of the car aswell and with other forces applied (cornering ect) it becomes huge

Basically
The safer option is wobble bolts
But lots dont like them
Id re machine the wheels personally

25th April 2013, 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexB

Bolts tend to be alloy
And load wise how well do the centre bores fit the hub
As if the pcd is incorrect id assume that is too

If they are snug using spogots ect its like i briefly explained previously as you torque up tou put a static load on of if im correct 1/3 of what your torquing the wheels up too

So about 30ft/lb which is just the car sat stationary
Then as your driving wheelbolts are subjected to quite a few other forces
As you accelerate you attempt to spin the hub in the wheel
Same braking but the force is the other way
Cornering pulls at the top wheel bolts aswell so stressing them outward

If the centre bores arent as snug the load amount is then effected by the weight of the car aswell and with other forces applied (cornering ect) it becomes huge

Basically
The safer option is wobble bolts
But lots dont like them
Id re machine the wheels personally

and that will snap the bolts off then?

25th April 2013, 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stissy

Thanks mate. But you're 1.4mm out, on a PCD that is 100mm. So thats 1.4 percent not 10. On top of that, are you not subjecting the bolts to the same stressed when lowering a car? If your drive shafts (for example) are sitting lower then the bolts at the top and bottom of the wheel are put under high stress each time the wheel rotates. Cyclic loading has a much bigger effect than constant load too.

??? did i just read.

25th April 2013, 17:19

Jesus H Christ there's some crap in here!

Right, lets get this out the way first: I am an Engineer, by training and experience. I am BEng qualified (Off Road Vehicle Design) and currently working towards my CEng accreditation with IMechE. I have designed and built numerous components and assemblies over the years.

Using standard tapered bolts in a wheel with the wrong offset is a bad idea because it will cause a bending load to be applied to the bolt as the head snugs down on the tapered seat. This assumes that you can get the bolts to tighten down enough that they seat the wheel onto the hub properly, and then tighten the bolts enough that the bolt head then seats correctly in the wheel bolt seat.

Wobble bolts on a tapered seat will allow the bolt to be inserted with no sideways load on the bolt as long as the "wobble" in bolt precisely matches half of the difference in the two p.c.d's (wheel and hub).

OE bolts COULD be used where the wheel seat is flat and an offset washer is used under the bolt head to allow the bolt head to apply the clamping force evenly across the wheel seat. This assumes that the washer hole is drilled half of the p.c.d. difference off centre, and that the washers outer diameter matches the wheel seat diameter.

All cases assume that the centre bore is correctly located on the hub and thus taking the vertical wheel loading. If not, all bets are off with regards to using off centre or "wobble" bolts or washers.

25th April 2013, 17:21

^ Gah, I didn't mean offset in the second paragraph, I ment p.c.d. (stupid work pc doesn't allow me to edit)

25th April 2013, 21:25

i added some minilites to a 4x100 polo today. i've ruined two hubs.