Important! : A bag of spanners - Video attached! Help appreciated

13th May 2014, 18:37

Hi guys, basically my x reg saxo vtr was running normally and all of a sudden
turned into a bag of spanners

the things i have checked are, (in no order):

fuel pump - primes and pressures system as normal.

injectors - (not sure if this was a good idea or not) but popped the entire rail
out of the block and got someone to turn the ignition and each one is
spitting orderly and evenly.

Fuel filter - Changed.

Crank position sensor - Changed.

i do have fuel in the car i just was playing about with the fuel pump i/e wiring
it up manually to see if it made any difference so the sender wires aren't
connected. It stands at about half a tank.

Exhaust is smoking and plugs are dry sooty and black as hell, but not oily.
the plugs have only just turned sooty since this issue as i had them out the
other week for inspection.

I'm no expert i just tried a few things but my guess would be an electrical
issue due to it receiving fuel and still missing/kangarooing.

would this be a common coil pack symptom? as the video shows it dies out
when you stamp on the gas or if you bring the rpm up slowly it starts dying
around 2.5k like its under fueled or not sparking.

i have had a minor issue with it for the last 2 months when i take a sharp left
turn then stamp the gas out of a corner it kangaroo'd for 1 or 2 seconds then
return to normal, it would do this perhaps once or twice a week but it kept
sorting itself out so i never really took the issue as majorly serious. no ECU
lights are on and ive ran a diagnostics check with some software and a
laptop i have - returned no codes.

just to say as well I've checked all the usual head gasket signs as i thought it
was that straight away when it started smoking. smoke stinks like unburnt
fuel and soot. not a sweet smell

any ideas or help would be great i just don't want to keep blowing money on sensors and whatnot without getting a second opinion.

Thanks!

Click Here for the Video

13th May 2014, 18:45

Yeah I'd have a stab at that being the coil pack.

Is it worse with a hot engine?

That noise is like incorrect ignition timing. check your flywheel sensor as well, maybe it's been knocked?

Or perhaps something has been sooked up the fuel line? don't see why it'd run rich though. Unless that's leaning out and flashing back down the inlet.

13th May 2014, 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

Yeah I'd have a stab at that being the coil pack.

Is it worse with a hot engine?

That noise is like incorrect ignition timing. check your flywheel sensor as well, maybe it's been knocked?

Or perhaps something has been sooked up the fuel line? don't see why it'd run rich though. Unless that's leaning out and flashing back down the inlet.

hi cheers for the reply, seems to run a tad worse when its hot, but i haven't
really let it heat up when i was playing around with it today. it was running a little worse yesterday when it started doing it hot as apposed to the video which shows it cold

ill have a crack at getting a coil pack, is it best to get a new one or from the scrappy's ?

13th May 2014, 18:59

try one from a scrappy first, I think

13th May 2014, 19:02

Yeah try that coil pack, could be stinking of fuel and smoking as that cylinder isn't sparking and thusly chucking the fuel into the exhaust

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13th May 2014, 19:06

changed my mind, try a new one. and if it isn't working send it back and get your money back.

13th May 2014, 19:10

I've got a good used one you can have cheap? No need for it now as I've gone 16v

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13th May 2014, 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandi699

I've got a good used one you can have cheap? No need for it now as I've gone 16v

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ah nice one, ill try the coil pack then. i really need to try get it sorted by tomorrow so ill probably take a trip to the local scrappy it will most definitely
have a few saxos! But if i need yours ill let you know. Thanks, ill update this tomorrow if i find anything out further. Just because it may help someone in the future.

14th May 2014, 20:37

argh been scrappy today just to get a coil pack and doesn't even start with that one. so rang around a few mates and got another and same again, absolutely no spark..
i've rested both on the engine head and no spark from either.

took the original coil pack and rested that one on the block and it fires on 1 & 2 fine but no 3 plug is sparking weakly and no 4 isn't sparking at all..

any other ideas anyone? could this be an ecu fault?

14th May 2014, 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by just_w00t

argh been scrappy today just to get a coil pack and doesn't even start with that one. so rang around a few mates and got another and same again, absolutely no spark..
i've rested both on the engine head and no spark from either.

took the original coil pack and rested that one on the block and it fires on 1 & 2 fine but no 3 plug is sparking weakly and no 4 isn't sparking at all..

any other ideas anyone? could this be an ecu fault?

It could be, the ECU drives the coil pack directly.

This is a strange one, 1&4 2&3 are the coils, so clearly the coil pack isn't at fault if the problem is with 1 and 3. Odd how the other 2 packs didn't work though...

15th May 2014, 12:27

yeah im ripping my hair out with this one, tried everything i can think of so far.

took the coil packs back and got my money back anyway.

i did notice something on them though. the ones i tried all have the same part codes but..

my original VTR one has a black connector

the one i got from the scrappy has a white connector

and the one i tried from my mate has a grey connector

are they different? or is that something and nothing.

I was looking on an ECU specialists website at common VTR ECU issues.
i don't know if they are blagging a sale but in the list of problems was misfire.

just hope its not the ecu, everything else works as normal.

maybe one for a pro auto electrician as its infuriating me

15th May 2014, 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

It could be, the ECU drives the coil pack directly.

This is a strange one, 1&4 2&3 are the coils, so clearly the coil pack isn't at fault if the problem is with 1 and 3. Odd how the other 2 packs didn't work though...

just to clarify if you look at the engine from the front of the car i dont know if the left hand side is 1 and the right hand side 4.. but we will say it is for now.

the problem lies with 3 and 4 not 1 and 3..

plugs 1 and two spark correctly 3 has a faint spark and 4 is dead.

15th May 2014, 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by just_w00t

yeah im ripping my hair out with this one, tried everything i can think of so far.

took the coil packs back and got my money back anyway.

i did notice something on them though. the ones i tried all have the same part codes but..

my original VTR one has a black connector

the one i got from the scrappy has a white connector

and the one i tried from my mate has a grey connector

are they different? or is that something and nothing.

I was looking on an ECU specialists website at common VTR ECU issues.
i don't know if they are blagging a sale but in the list of problems was misfire.

just hope its not the ecu, everything else works as normal.

maybe one for a pro auto electrician as its infuriating me

Are they different?

Yup, pretty sure they are. I don't know what the differences are. I only know 16v and diesel TU engines

Check the voltages at the coil pack pins with a multimeter.

15th May 2014, 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

Are they different?

Yup, pretty sure they are. I don't know what the differences are. I only know 16v and diesel TU engines

Check the voltages at the coil pack pins with a multimeter.

tried checking voltages by the pins only got a reading from one of the four connectors inside the plug, with the ground from the multimeter attached to the battery directly, anyone have a plug diagram or know what any of the wires are for ??

theres two white wires one brown and one black

black leads to this little grounding thing and i guess the brown is a ground too. one of the whites is a live as that's the one i get the reading from, and not sure what the other white is for. perhaps a return for the ecu.? no idea.

gunna grab a brand new coil pack and plugs

as i'm still set on it being that. will update thanks for the help anyway

16th May 2014, 21:37

update:

brand new coil pack hasn't made a difference..

is it at all possible that the timing belt could slip, or would it smash the valves

going to be checking timing belt and ECU, if its not those i'm scrapping it!

16th May 2014, 21:53

av nae got clue

Timing can slip, but that wouldn't cause a misfire as bad as yours without bending valves.

16th May 2014, 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

av nae got clue

Timing can slip, but that wouldn't cause a misfire as bad as yours without bending valves.

unless they are bent and its running crap because of it. i dunno. im done with it,

16th May 2014, 22:06

http://postimg.org/image/3pvgtcbwh/

17th May 2014, 18:40

A lot of cost for a few ifs and buts imho.

Would be cheaper finding an unlocked ECU. by about £500

17th May 2014, 18:54

yeah haha,

im gunna get hold of a MAP sensor on monday as ive been armed with a multi-meter most of today

grounded it to the battery and with the sensor plugged in but removed from the
manifold i put the live on the ECU return wire..

getting about 5v on the return which is normal but i hooked it up to a vacuum
pump and absolutely no change in voltage.. from what i've read its supposed to drop 1volt for around every 5lbs of vacuum pressure.

would a map sensor make it run that shit ?

17th May 2014, 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by just_w00t

yeah haha,

im gunna get hold of a MAP sensor on monday as ive been armed with a multi-meter most of today

grounded it to the battery and with the sensor plugged in but removed from the
manifold i put the live on the ECU return wire..

getting about 5v on the return which is normal but i hooked it up to a vacuum
pump and absolutely no change in voltage.. from what i've read its supposed to drop 1volt for around every 5lbs of vacuum pressure.

would a map sensor make it run that shit ?

Yes.

In fact, any sensor which controls primary fuelling will do that. So, MAP, TPS, CTS.

knock and crank sensors usually cause no starts.

lambdas can give you funny readings sometimes. but never a misfire like that.

19th May 2014, 20:20

update:

map sensor did nothing! anyone got any other suggestions

25th May 2014, 23:42

Solved... just posting in case this could help anyone else

after messing around with my buddies snap on diagnostics and a wiring
diagram i figured out it was a bad ground wire for the map sensor, throttle position, air temp sensor and whatever else is attached to that circuit. was
four sensors in total! none of the four sensors showed a reading on the diagnostics.

anyway just spliced into the middle wire on the map sensor and bolted a wire
down onto the engine block. a temp fix until i have time to root the wiring out properly and see whats going on, runs perfect though.

but the cause was the previous owner had positioned the air filter
in-between the battery and engine and it was shorting out the live terminal from the battery directly to the engine block because the battery wasn't properly secured.
(wasn't just his fault i should of checked too) hence why i was having it kangaroo occasionally after coming out of a left
turn because the battery was sliding to the right.

got pretty lucky could of caused all sorts of electrical faults.

lesson learned! bolt your damn batteries down

25th May 2014, 23:51

Wow, what the actual fuck hahahahahahah

26th May 2014, 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

Wow, what the actual fuck hahahahahahah

i was just about to scrap her, and a 15cm wire solved my issue. jeeez hahaha

26th May 2014, 00:33

That's crazy, good fault finding though. Crazy how random things can happen like that then cause issues which you think are something else totally

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