Bleeding issue

  1. Established Member Joined: Jan 2013 Portsmouth Posts: 1335 1997 Mk1 VTS
    #1
    Have a strange problem with my VTS engine.

    Went to do the final thing to it today before MOT which was bleeding it.

    Opened the first two bleed nipples and had a nice constant flow of coolant coming out (heater matrix on hot as well)

    Waited for the thermostat to open and opened the final bleed nipple and again a nice constant flow of coolant.

    Decided to leave it running to wait for the fans to kick in but before they got a chance my expansion tank (coke bottle) quickly backfired and loads of coolant rushed up it and it flowed everywhere.

    Anyone got any ideas? Headgasket and water pump are both brand new.
  2. Established Member Joined: Aug 2009 King's lynn Posts: 2073 Turbocharged vtr
    #2
    Bleed it again, once bled, top the coolant up to the correct level, then put the cap on, and check for the fans to come on, that's all I did and it was fine
  3. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Dec 2007 smurfland. Posts: 17346 Ex saxo owner.
    #3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iSlayeR View Post
    Bleed it again, once bled, top the coolant up to the correct level, then put the cap on, and check for the fans to come on, that's all I did and it was fine
    Had exact same issue on mine last week,it was an air lock of biblical proportions lol.it hissed like a scolded cat then showered the engine with coolant,runs fine now though.
  4. Established Member Joined: Jun 2013 York Posts: 2134 Citroen Saxo VTR (2001)
    #4
    Yeah basically there is air in the system, then you fill the expansion tank with coolant but once the air has gone around the coolant system and back into the radiator, it'll go back into the expansion tank and it'll come straight back out!
    Stick some more coolant in and keep bleeding an it'll be spot on!

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  5. Established Member Joined: Jan 2013 Portsmouth Posts: 1335 1997 Mk1 VTS
    #5
    Tried bleeding it again, but the same thing happening. When its gets hot enough the amount of coolant in the rad bottle just suddenly drops all the way down and then comes flying back up and straight out the top of the rad.

    All the bleed nipples have been bled just can't understand it.

    Any ideas?
  6. Established Member Joined: Jun 2013 York Posts: 2134 Citroen Saxo VTR (2001)
    #6
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jigs2895 View Post
    Tried bleeding it again, but the same thing happening. When its gets hot enough the amount of coolant in the rad bottle just suddenly drops all the way down and then comes flying back up and straight out the top of the rad.

    All the bleed nipples have been bled just can't understand it.

    Any ideas?

    Once it's done that, do you leave the engine running and put more coolant in? Or do you turn the engine off?




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  7. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 9100 Amazon green VTR 16v, Inferno RS clio 182
    #7
    I always shut it off after the stat opens and the level in the bottle drops then rises again. Go have a cuppa or 3 and let it cool fully that should do it. I don't even have an upper bleed valve behind the head as I have to mod some pipe work to fit as the old stuff was damage and this method still works for me


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  8. Established Member Joined: Jan 2013 Portsmouth Posts: 1335 1997 Mk1 VTS
    #8
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jbrady72 View Post
    Once it's done that, do you leave the engine running and put more coolant in? Or do you turn the engine off?

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    When it starts shooting up and pouring everywhere I obviously run and turn it off, is that what i'm doing wrong? Just seems the temp gets to high and the water is boiling.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gandi699 View Post
    I always shut it off after the stat opens and the level in the bottle drops then rises again. Go have a cuppa or 3 and let it cool fully that should do it. I don't even have an upper bleed valve behind the head as I have to mod some pipe work to fit as the old stuff was damage and this method still works for me

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Im worried that after it has pissed everywhere the level of water is low, so if I top it up and pop the cap on and then run it up again and it builds up loads of pressure and fucks the rad up.

    Fans haven't kicked in yet either.
  9. Established Member Joined: Jun 2013 York Posts: 2134 Citroen Saxo VTR (2001)
    #9
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jigs2895 View Post
    When it starts shooting up and pouring everywhere I obviously run and turn it off, is that what i'm doing wrong? Just seems the temp gets to high and the water is boiling.







    Im worried that after it has pissed everywhere the level of water is low, so if I top it up and pop the cap on and then run it up again and it builds up loads of pressure and fucks the rad up.



    Fans haven't kicked in yet either.

    I'd say once it's gone everywhere, just top it up and leave it running! Obviously keep an eye on the temp gauge and if it gets too high turn it off but the water coming out the top is just as the air is getting pushed out the system.
    Remember when bleeding the system you're meant to have the blowers on full inside and hot!


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  10. Saxperience Addict Joined: Dec 2009 Posts: 11714 A6 Le Mans tuned/A3 TFSI tuned
    #10
    Don't open it while it's hot, it will open like a shaken coke bottle and dangerous. As above leave open throughout and top up as necessary. Bleed later after running the car for a while as you will have a few bubbles running through.

    :edit: don't worry about the fan not kicking in. Take your time, drive the car. If you have bubbles bleed them, top up if needed. From my experience bubbles will make the temp gauge shoot right to the red. If you don't get that you're fine.
  11. Established Member Joined: Jan 2013 Portsmouth Posts: 1335 1997 Mk1 VTS
    #11
    Had the blowers on hot the hole time. Bled my VTR a few times and never had any issues, it's just been this I have had problems with. I will try and bleed it again tomorrow taking in to consideration the different points bought up.

    I've always turned it off at the overflow point but I'll grow some balls and keep it running and see how we go!
  12. Established Member Joined: Jan 2013 Portsmouth Posts: 1335 1997 Mk1 VTS
    #12
    Had the blowers on hot the hole time. Bled my VTR a few times and never had any issues, it's just been this I have had problems with. I will try and bleed it again tomorrow taking in to consideration the different points bought up.

    I've always turned it off at the overflow point but I'll grow some balls and keep it running and see how we go!
  13. Frequent Poster Joined: Feb 2012 Portsmouth Posts: 568 1992 MX-5 1.6 SE
    #13
    There's probably a huge air lock in there somewhere, are you using got the header tank from Citroen/cut up bottle of coke?
  14. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2012 Perth Posts: 3665 Peugeot 106 1.1 Turbo Peugeot 106 1.5D Turbo Peuge
    #14
    Having the heater on in the car makes no difference. These matrix don't have valves in them. they are "on" all the time.

    Make sure you bleed it in order. Rad, stat housing then heater matrix bleed nipple.


    You're supposed to do it stone cold, engine OFF with a header of water. Otherwise, as mentioned already, you make a fucking mess as air is getting pushed around and re-drawn into the system. you create small air pockets as the water pump is turning.
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  15. Established Member Joined: Jun 2013 York Posts: 2134 Citroen Saxo VTR (2001)
    #15
    The correct order is the back left one first, then thermostat housing, then the one on top of the radiator isn't it?

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  16. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 31279 Citroen Saxo VTS, S60 D5
    #16
    Only really used the rad and inlet one. Never had a single issue
  17. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2012 Perth Posts: 3665 Peugeot 106 1.1 Turbo Peugeot 106 1.5D Turbo Peuge
    #17
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jbrady72 View Post
    The correct order is the back left one first, then thermostat housing, then the one on top of the radiator isn't it?

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    No, lowest to highest.
  18. Established Member Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 2009 Saxò VTS 16v
    #18
    With the car off:

    Put half bottle in the expansion tank
    Add coolant so the level sits higher than the bleeding points
    Open the first rad bleed screw
    Continue to add coolant to the tank until you don't see any more bubbles come out
    Close the bleed screw
    Open the left bleed plastic cap (looks like a tyre cap) near the engine mount
    Do the same as the first bleed screw
    Take the half bottle out,leave the coolant at the max mark and turn the car on and check temps.

    Doesn't this work?
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  19. Established Member Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 2009 Saxò VTS 16v
    #19
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jigs2895 View Post
    Tried bleeding it again, but the same thing happening. When its gets hot enough the amount of coolant in the rad bottle just suddenly drops all the way down and then comes flying back up and straight out the top of the rad.

    All the bleed nipples have been bled just can't understand it.

    Any ideas?
    You need to do this with the engine OFF,if you do this with the engine running that's what will happen,learned that myself the hard way.

    The thermostat screw is not absolutely necessary to bleed the system.
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  20. Established Member Joined: Jan 2013 Portsmouth Posts: 1335 1997 Mk1 VTS
    #20
    Cheers lads I'll give that a go.
  21. Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Scotland Posts: 1764 Because racecar
    #21
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by VeiRoN View Post
    With the car off:

    Put half bottle in the expansion tank
    Add coolant so the level sits higher than the bleeding points
    Open the first rad bleed screw
    Continue to add coolant to the tank until you don't see any more bubbles come out
    Close the bleed screw
    Open the left bleed plastic cap (looks like a tyre cap) near the engine mount
    Do the same as the first bleed screw
    Take the half bottle out,leave the coolant at the max mark and turn the car on and check temps.
    Sit back and have a beer
    Doesn't this work?
    Fixed
  22. Established Member Joined: Jan 2013 Portsmouth Posts: 1335 1997 Mk1 VTS
    #22
    Still having issues with this. Tried both ways again and neither are working out.

    Seems fine till a certain temperature then it boils over, the heaters go from burning hot to stone cold and the car starts to overheat. Up until it boils over it is perfect though?

    Pissing me right off now!!
  23. Established Member Joined: Aug 2009 King's lynn Posts: 2073 Turbocharged vtr
    #23
    Before your closing each bleed point, are you pouring coolant into your header tank at the same time as closing it?

    This is the way I've always done it:
    When stone cold fill up with coolant.
    Open all 3 bleed points.
    Turn engine on.
    Keep pouring coolant in
    Coolant comes out of the stat housing first.
    Then the one top left.
    Then the rad.

    Hope this helps

    Also are you putting the rad cap on while you watch the temperature to rise?
  24. Established Member Joined: Jan 2013 Portsmouth Posts: 1335 1997 Mk1 VTS
    #24
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iSlayeR View Post
    Before your closing each bleed point, are you pouring coolant into your header tank at the same time as closing it?

    This is the way I've always done it:
    When stone cold fill up with coolant.
    Open all 3 bleed points.
    Turn engine on.
    Keep pouring coolant in
    Coolant comes out of the stat housing first.
    Then the one top left.
    Then the rad.

    Hope this helps

    Also are you putting the rad cap on while you watch the temperature to rise?
    Yeah thats the way I have been doing it.

    I've also kept the header tank nice and full to put the pressure round the system so it naturally bleeds its self a little bit better, even when I squeezed the pipes there was no air bubbles coming out. Then all of a sudden its overflowing out the lid and there is a ton of air in the system?
  25. Established Member Joined: Aug 2009 King's lynn Posts: 2073 Turbocharged vtr
    #25
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jigs2895 View Post
    Yeah thats the way I have been doing it.

    I've also kept the header tank nice and full to put the pressure round the system so it naturally bleeds its self a little bit better, even when I squeezed the pipes there was no air bubbles coming out. Then all of a sudden its overflowing out the lid and there is a ton of air in the system?
    Hmm, I can see why it's pissing you off you must be blitzing through coolant as well Try letting each bleed point bleed for longer, then as soon as you've bled the last point, put the rad cap on, turn the engine off, leave it until there's no pressure, then fill it up, and see what happens, remember to leave the cap on while the temperature rises
  26. Established Member Joined: Jan 2013 Portsmouth Posts: 1335 1997 Mk1 VTS
    #26
    Why do I need the rad cap on? Either way it comes out the small hole when the pressure is high enough anyway
  27. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Apr 2013 Jarrow Posts: 4022 2003 Icelandic Grey 16v VTR 1991 Daihatsu GTti
    #27
    Might not be enough pressure to piss out the cap?
  28. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Dec 2007 smurfland. Posts: 17346 Ex saxo owner.
    #28
    Has the coolant system been flush through with a radiator flush liquid?
  29. Established Member Joined: Jan 2013 Portsmouth Posts: 1335 1997 Mk1 VTS
    #29
    No not at all. Brand new radiator though?
  30. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Dec 2007 smurfland. Posts: 17346 Ex saxo owner.
    #30
    Right ok just trying to eliminate things.
  31. Established Member Joined: Jan 2013 Portsmouth Posts: 1335 1997 Mk1 VTS
    #31
    Any other thoughts?
  32. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2012 Perth Posts: 3665 Peugeot 106 1.1 Turbo Peugeot 106 1.5D Turbo Peuge
    #32
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jigs2895 View Post
    Any other thoughts?
    You're being a fanny!

    The "full" level is like, half way down the tank on the rad. It's spilling off all the excess.

    Use a torch and look for the markings.
  33. Established Member Joined: Jan 2013 Portsmouth Posts: 1335 1997 Mk1 VTS
    #33
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MartinObviously View Post
    You're being a fanny!

    The "full" level is like, half way down the tank on the rad. It's spilling off all the excess.

    Use a torch and look for the markings.
    But why is it bringing air into the system when its doing it? When it spills it all off the heaters go cold and all the bleed points are full of air
  34. Established Member Joined: Jun 2013 York Posts: 2134 Citroen Saxo VTR (2001)
    #34
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jigs2895 View Post
    But why is it bringing air into the system when its doing it? When it spills it all off the heaters go cold and all the bleed points are full of air

    That's the point of the bleed points to get rid of the air just man it and keep going I'd say


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  35. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2012 Perth Posts: 3665 Peugeot 106 1.1 Turbo Peugeot 106 1.5D Turbo Peuge
    #35
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jigs2895 View Post
    But why is it bringing air into the system when its doing it? When it spills it all off the heaters go cold and all the bleed points are full of air
    Cooling system is being pressurised by a failed head gasket? that's the ONLY way air could get in, if you have no leaks and it was bled correctly.

    as I said before, do it with the engine cold and a header of water. that's the way TU engines are supposed to be bled. I've done it countless times and never had an issue.
  36. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Dec 2007 smurfland. Posts: 17346 Ex saxo owner.
    #36
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MartinObviously View Post
    You're being a fanny!

    The "full" level is like, half way down the tank on the rad. It's spilling off all the excess.

    Use a torch and look for the markings.
    This is why when i fill up the expansion bottle i don't fill right to the top.the idea is to allow for expansion or it'll spew out the excess under pressure.
  37. Established Member Joined: Jan 2013 Portsmouth Posts: 1335 1997 Mk1 VTS
    #37
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MartinObviously View Post
    Cooling system is being pressurised by a failed head gasket? that's the ONLY way air could get in, if you have no leaks and it was bled correctly.

    as I said before, do it with the engine cold and a header of water. that's the way TU engines are supposed to be bled. I've done it countless times and never had an issue.
    Im starting to think this is the issue. Ill be doing a block test on it tomorrow to test the head gasket. Cant see why though as its brand new, I did it when I did the rebuild along with getting the head skimmed?
  38. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2012 Perth Posts: 3665 Peugeot 106 1.1 Turbo Peugeot 106 1.5D Turbo Peuge
    #38
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jigs2895 View Post
    Im starting to think this is the issue. Ill be doing a block test on it tomorrow to test the head gasket. Cant see why though as its brand new, I did it when I did the rebuild along with getting the head skimmed?
    Not sure how you can fit a gasket wrong, unless the bolts weren't torqued correctly.

    Get the system tested then
  39. Established Member Joined: Jan 2013 Portsmouth Posts: 1335 1997 Mk1 VTS
    #39
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MartinObviously View Post
    Not sure how you can fit a gasket wrong, unless the bolts weren't torqued correctly.

    Get the system tested then
    I'm 99% sure it was on correctly, torqued the head bolts to 20NM + 260 degrees iirc.

    Like you said though, nothing else it can be really! Thinking about it I do get a fair bit of white smoke on start up, but then again it is being sat at the moment and hasn't moved for 2 months
  40. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2012 Perth Posts: 3665 Peugeot 106 1.1 Turbo Peugeot 106 1.5D Turbo Peuge
    #40
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jigs2895 View Post
    I'm 99% sure it was on correctly, torqued the head bolts to 20NM + 260 degrees iirc.

    Like you said though, nothing else it can be really! Thinking about it I do get a fair bit of white smoke on start up, but then again it is being sat at the moment and hasn't moved for 2 months
    you didn't do the 260 in one go for each bolt did you???

    It's 2 stages of 130 degrees.

    Let me put 260 degrees into persepective, a typical wheel bolt is tight enough with 20Nm and 90 degrees. If you've done 260 in one go on each bolt, the gasket may not be seated properly or you've warped the head.
  41. Established Member Joined: Jan 2013 Portsmouth Posts: 1335 1997 Mk1 VTS
    #41
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MartinObviously View Post
    you didn't do the 260 in one go for each bolt did you???

    It's 2 stages of 130 degrees.

    Let me put 260 degrees into persepective, a typical wheel bolt is tight enough with 20Nm and 90 degrees. If you've done 260 in one go on each bolt, the gasket may not be seated properly or you've warped the head.
    I did yes. Didn't mention anywhere about doing it in two stages.

    I'll do the block test tomorrow and get back to you. If that's the problem I guess I'll need to strip it all back down and have the head skimmed again. Right pain.
  42. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Nov 2010 Kent Posts: 8439 Gen 7 Celica 190.
    #42
    Wouldnt skim twice, considering the TU is a contact engine your asking for trouble
  43. L-plater Joined: Oct 2014 Posts: 42
    #43
    jigs i would say that was problem. head bolts have to be torqued up in an order other wise when you tighten then its not flat to the block. you may have warped the head or crushed the gasket on one side. like Cam said i wouldn't skim twice unless you know the exact measurements of how much was taken off the first time. if i were you i would start all over again, take the had off, buy a new gasket, check head isn't warped and re fit.
  44. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2012 Perth Posts: 3665 Peugeot 106 1.1 Turbo Peugeot 106 1.5D Turbo Peuge
    #44
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jigs2895 View Post
    I did yes. Didn't mention anywhere about doing it in two stages.

    I'll do the block test tomorrow and get back to you. If that's the problem I guess I'll need to strip it all back down and have the head skimmed again. Right pain.
    Where did you get your information?

    I can't even find my Haynes manual, I know it mentions 2 stage tightening.
  45. Established Member Joined: Jan 2013 Portsmouth Posts: 1335 1997 Mk1 VTS
    #45
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MartinObviously View Post
    Where did you get your information?

    I can't even find my Haynes manual, I know it mentions 2 stage tightening.
    Rung Citroen today and for the first time actually spoke to someone helpful.. They confirmed only one full turn of 260 degrees was necessary.

    Also did my block test and thankfully the head gasket it fine. Removed the thermostat and bled the system that way, also jacked up the front of the car slightly, without the thermostat it bled fine and ran up to temperature nicely.

    Tested the thermostat and there didn't appear to be anything wrong with it but I replaced it anyway, popped the new one in, again bled it up fine. However still no fans kicking in.

    Looked on the switch for the fans and it states its operating temperature is 97 degrees, for my liking that is way to high, so I have ordered a new switch from I believe a pocasso which has a operating temperature of 80 degrees, fingers crossed that will help the fans to kick in, if not they will be going on a switch.
  46. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Dec 2007 smurfland. Posts: 17346 Ex saxo owner.
    #46
    Are you sure that the fans actually work an i'm not being sarcastic by saying this?have you tried running a live feed to the fans?
  47. Established Member Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 2009 Saxò VTS 16v
    #47
    If i'm not mistaken the fan should kick in at around 85 degrees,that's from standard.
  48. Established Member Joined: Jan 2013 Portsmouth Posts: 1335 1997 Mk1 VTS
    #48
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stevo67 View Post
    Are you sure that the fans actually work an i'm not being sarcastic by saying this?have you tried running a live feed to the fans?
    Yeah I ran a live feed to the fans when they were off the car, I might have to whip them out again and have another look though.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by VeiRoN View Post
    If i'm not mistaken the fan should kick in at around 85 degrees,that's from standard.
    Your correct on that one, god knows why the one Citroen gave me has a opening circuit at 97 degrees.

    The main thing is that the head gasket is fine though, I was convinced that was the issue yesterday!
  49. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2012 Perth Posts: 3665 Peugeot 106 1.1 Turbo Peugeot 106 1.5D Turbo Peuge
    #49
    But I asked where you got your information from. So I can go and read it...
  50. Established Member Joined: Jan 2013 Portsmouth Posts: 1335 1997 Mk1 VTS
    #50
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MartinObviously View Post
    But I asked where you got your information from. So I can go and read it...
    Citroen themselves and Haynes manual both says one full turn of 260 degrees.
  51. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2012 Perth Posts: 3665 Peugeot 106 1.1 Turbo Peugeot 106 1.5D Turbo Peuge
    #51
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jigs2895 View Post
    Citroen themselves and Haynes manual both says one full turn of 260 degrees.
    So you got it from the Haynes manual then.

    You didn't get it from citroen until AFTER you did the head gasket.
  52. Established Member Joined: Jan 2013 Portsmouth Posts: 1335 1997 Mk1 VTS
    #52
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MartinObviously View Post
    So you got it from the Haynes manual then.

    You didn't get it from citroen until AFTER you did the head gasket.
    Whilst I was going the head gasket I got the figures from the sheet that comes with the head gasket which stated 20NM and a 260 degree turn.

    When I thought the head gasket wasn't seated properly the other day I got my information from Citroen and the Haynes manual
  53. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2012 Perth Posts: 3665 Peugeot 106 1.1 Turbo Peugeot 106 1.5D Turbo Peuge
    #53
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jigs2895 View Post
    Whilst I was going the head gasket I got the figures from the sheet that comes with the head gasket which stated 20NM and a 260 degree turn.

    When I thought the head gasket wasn't seated properly the other day I got my information from Citroen and the Haynes manual


    I think it's only 8v that's in 2 stages.
  54. Established Member Joined: Jan 2013 Portsmouth Posts: 1335 1997 Mk1 VTS
    #54
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MartinObviously View Post


    I think it's only 8v that's in 2 stages.
    Ah fair enough!