Harnesses and rear bench?

8th October 2015, 11:27

Afternoon Saxp,

I was wondering if anyone has successfully fitted bucket seats with racing harnesses whilst still retaining the rear bench? Currently, we have our 4-point harnesses bolted to (from the perspective of the drivers seat): Bottom right to the original seat belt bracket near the door. Bottom left to the rear bench lower bracket. Top left/right to the rear bench seatbelt clip. The passenger side is mirrored.

Obviously this means the harnesses go straight through where the rear bench would be. You could fit the rear bench over the top but it would probably look messy. So has anyone else used different mounting points? Or made their own? Im just looking for some examples.

The retention of the rear bench is only important so firstly, we can carry a rear passenger if we really need to (though this wont be the norm) and secondly so we can still fit the back of the bench and boot parcel shelf to conceal whats in the boot.

Also, Ive been told by a couple of people that the minimum angle harnesses can be fitted at is internally 60 deg. So leaving the seat and going straight (an angle of probably 40 deg) down would be illegal.

Cheers.

8th October 2015, 12:34

Surely however you do it, its going to be nigh on impossible to have a back seat passenger with harnesses in the way? Unless they are going to sit in the middle I guess, but getting in and out would still be a pain.

I think however you do it, its going to end up looking messy.... in my opinion at least.

8th October 2015, 13:31

It depends. I’ve seen on a Mk4 Golf with a set of buckets with harnesses where the harnesses go directly down the back of the chair and bolt to a mounting point on the subframe. Obviously in this case it looks as though they’re designed to do that, whether it’s intentional and legal, or whether the owner has just cobbled it together by finding a random thread to bolt to, I don’t know. But I was wondering if anyone has a similar solution which could be implemented on a Sax.

The use of the rear seat isn’t a dealbreaker. But ideally I’d want to keep the bench there just in case, because two-seaters are massively impractical for my life and so that I can conceal the contents of the boot (not as dodgy as it sounds haha).

9th October 2015, 11:17

I have seen a harness bar in a Saxo that bolted to the upper seat belt mount & then I suspect the bottom (couldn't see it in the image) then the bar went across the car to the other side. Getting in would still be a problem as you would have to duck under this bar, but it would be far better for harness it was on FB & you probably know what POS that is to find anything

27th October 2015, 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaeton

I have seen a harness bar in a Saxo that bolted to the upper seat belt mount & then I suspect the bottom (couldn't see it in the image) then the bar went across the car to the other side. Getting in would still be a problem as you would have to duck under this bar, but it would be far better for harness it was on FB & you probably know what POS that is to find anything

A harness bar isnt required for our use. We only fitted harnesses because we had buckets (and also because they are a novelty upgrade over the standard seatbelts), rather than to hold us in place. I was wondering if anyone has mounted harnesses anywhere else other than the rear bench seatbelt mounts. As I say, Ive seen a golf where the harnesses went straight down the back of the rear of the chair and bolted somewhere under the chair, potentially in the subframe or car floor.

28th October 2015, 05:51

Doing that would be baaaaaaaad.

Harnesses should come out the back of the seat as close to horizontal as possible, a lot of folk don't like to even use the seat belt mounts from the rear seat as that doesn't give enough of an angle.

Defo wouldn't be me running harnesses directly down the back of a seat in to the floor.

28th October 2015, 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESD1711

Doing that would be baaaaaaaad.

Harnesses should come out the back of the seat as close to horizontal as possible, a lot of folk don't like to even use the seat belt mounts from the rear seat as that doesn't give enough of an angle.

Defo wouldn't be me running harnesses directly down the back of a seat in to the floor.

Yeah. I did read about the harsh angle pulling the harnesses downwards in a crash, which can be bad for the driver.

29th October 2015, 05:52

Personally, i'd say either lose the bench or lose the harnesses...... but I know that doesn't really answer the question you asked.

29th October 2015, 06:32

harnesses go to a harness bar on the cage, or no harnesses, any other bodge is dangerous.

29th October 2015, 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by welshpug

need a part number? http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com/ and http://service.citroen.com/ will sort you out.

How do you use this it looks like it's asking for a username & password

29th October 2015, 07:36

Make one, same as any site that requires a login.

29th October 2015, 07:40

Ich nicht pollyvous Francais

29th October 2015, 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaeton

Ich nicht pollyvous Francais

Google translate

29th October 2015, 08:20

tick the box that says english uk.

30th October 2015, 07:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by welshpug

harnesses go to a harness bar on the cage, or no harnesses, any other bodge is dangerous.

What about harnesses which are supplied with mounting plates / bolts? Where would they attach to a harness bar?

30th October 2015, 08:12

Harness bar needs a fully welded threaded insert putting in (I believe)

30th October 2015, 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaeton

Harness bar needs a fully welded threaded insert putting in (I believe)

Where did you get this information from? A welded in threaded insert is arguably less safe than the rear seatbelt tread already in the car - unless it has something to do with the angle of the harness.

30th October 2015, 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stissy

Where did you get this information from? A welded in threaded insert is arguably less safe than the rear seatbelt tread already in the car - unless it has something to do with the angle of the harness.

From the IVA/SVA tests for Kitcars, that is the way that they require them, how would you suggest you attach a harness to a harness bar?

30th October 2015, 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaeton

From the IVA/SVA tests for Kitcars, that is the way that they require them, how would you suggest you attach a harness to a harness bar?

Thats just it, back to my original question of:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stissy

What about harnesses which are supplied with mounting plates / bolts? Where would they attach to a harness bar?

30th October 2015, 21:14

you wont be able to fit harnesses to a spec where they wont be a danger to yourself/incorrect fitment..and still be able to get rear passengers in unless the fitment is staggered..which isnt possible due to the size of most cars

15th February 2016, 20:15

Just to close this out. We managed to resolve it at the weekend. We mounted the harnesses to the lower rear seatbelt mount, using the original seatbelt fixing points. The photo doesn't show the rear bench fitted, but we have got it in. Getting in and out of the back is near impossible with the harnesses in the way, but it's alright for occasional use.

16th February 2016, 17:29

Didn't you say it was a 4 point harness?

16th February 2016, 18:14

looks horrible and dangerous.

16th February 2016, 18:32

Only on the event of an accident & when needed other than that they will be fine

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

16th February 2016, 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by welshpug

looks horrible and dangerous.

How is it any different to the below? Which is how I've seen most set-ups for the Saxo. Or is this also considered unsafe?

16th February 2016, 21:43

I will hold my hand up & say that is how mine are currently until the cage & harness bar goes in. There is a good guide on the MSA website (I think it is) explaining, but basically (paraphrased) what will happen in a front end accident, the most common on the track is that your upper body rotates around the base of your spine, your shoulders form the top of a triangle with your harness & your spine gets crushed.

16th February 2016, 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaeton

I will hold my hand up & say that is how mine are currently until the cage & harness bar goes in. There is a good guide on the MSA website (I think it is) explaining, but basically (paraphrased) what will happen in a front end accident, the most common on the track is that your upper body rotates around the base of your spine, your shoulders form the top of a triangle with your harness & your spine gets crushed.

Most people seem to bolt the harnesses to the rear lower seatbelt fixing points. There are loads of examples of people doing this (here / and here) and it being accepted. Failing that, I guess I could mount a harness bar on the b-pillar and run the harnesses over that before mounting them to the same point as they are now. Which would give a <10 deg angle on the back.

17th February 2016, 00:06

Basically you want the shoulder straps to be at an angle between 0 and 45 degrees.

17th February 2016, 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stissy

How is it any different to the below? Which is how I've seen most set-ups for the Saxo. Or is this also considered unsafe?

I really don't understand this one at all.

Why would you go to the extra expense of having a harness bar, only to mount your harnesses to the floor?!?

Anyway, I think i'll stick with my original thoughts - harnesses or rear bench, but no easy proper way to have both.

17th February 2016, 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaeton

Only on the event of an accident & when needed other than that they will be fine

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

ahahahahaaaaa

fuck.

hahahahaha.

17th February 2016, 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stissy

How is it any different to the below? Which is how I've seen most set-ups for the Saxo. Or is this also considered unsafe?

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t...7/DSC00071.jpg

they are straight and there's a cage, but also bloody daft as theres harmess bars!!!

17th February 2016, 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by VeiRoN

Basically you want the shoulder straps to be at an angle between 0 and 45 degrees.

0-20 is best.

17th February 2016, 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by VeiRoN

Basically you want the shoulder straps to be at an angle between 0 and 45 degrees.

Yep. This. It shouldn’t be too hard to fab something up that links the b-pillars with a ‘U’ shaped bar which I can use to mount the shoulder straps as close to 0 deg as possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by welshpug

they are straight and there's a cage, but also bloody daft as theres harmess bars!!!

Well, they’re bolted to one of the same points as my harnesses. So if you’re saying they’re straight / ok, then you’re also saying that mine are ok (ignoring the harness bar as that’s not part of the problem).

17th February 2016, 12:53

The difference being that in the picture you put up, only the outer shoulder straps were mounted to the same point as you've mounted yours.

In your case with the 3 point harness, both shoulder straps stretch out meaning your inner strap is longer than your outer strap - and the direction of the pull is off centre, I cant imagine that being good?

17th February 2016, 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stissy

Most people seem to bolt the harnesses to the rear lower seatbelt fixing points. There are loads of examples of people doing this (here / and here) and it being accepted. Failing that, I guess I could mount a harness bar on the b-pillar and run the harnesses over that before mounting them to the same point as they are now. Which would give a <10 deg angle on the back.

EDIT. Or over the bar and straight down, something like this:

I guess this is a solution which would probably work in theory - but I cant for the life of me see how that's going to make getting in and out the back seat anything other than an absolute nightmare

17th February 2016, 15:28

The thing is a never saw any proper structural bar in a Saxo that would connect the shoulder strap and alone not collapse in an accident.

The only proper way I know of is by using a proper harness bar welded to a cage,I know it's quite expensive and not so easy as a bolt on bar but it's your safety you're putting at stake and I rather have material I can rely on when you need it.

17th February 2016, 15:34

Jeez, imagine a back passenger kissing that in the unlikely event of a crash. Not sure why people play with these things for no other than cosmetic purposes.

17th February 2016, 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESD1711

In your case with the 3 point harness, both shoulder straps stretch out meaning your inner strap is longer than your outer strap - and the direction of the pull is off centre, I cant imagine that being good?

The direction of pull won’t be off centre, it’ll still be forwards to the front of the car. But you’re right, the inner strap would be put under more strain. I’ve done some fag packet maths and worked it out. It’s about 24-25% more over the inner one. Not ideal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESD1711

I guess this is a solution which would probably work in theory - but I cant for the life of me see how that's going to make getting in and out the back seat anything other than an absolute nightmare

Haha. It already is a nightmare to get in and out of the back. But not impossible. If the harness bar was mounted to the b-pillars you would just have to go under it when getting in and out. You have to do that anyway with the harnesses in place. I doubt the rear bench will be used that often anyway. It’s there just in case we need to carry a third passenger, and also to conceal whatever we have in the boot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VeiRoN

The thing is a never saw any proper structural bar in a Saxo that would connect the shoulder strap and alone not collapse in an accident.

The only proper way I know of is by using a proper harness bar welded to a cage,I know it's quite expensive and not so easy as a bolt on bar but it's your safety you're putting at stake and I rather have material I can rely on when you need it.

Welding would be just as easy I guess. But it's never going to be 100% safe. Even with the standard seatbelts the Saxo isn't really a safe car in an accident...

17th February 2016, 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stissy

How is it any different to the below? Which is how I've seen most set-ups for the Saxo. Or is this also considered unsafe?

In the event of an accident the load on the bolts is half as much compared to your dodgy set up for a start!

Also the are a lot straighter.

17th February 2016, 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_P

In the event of an accident the load on the bolts is half as much compared to your dodgy set up for a start!

Sorry. How is this different to a normal seat belt, which just have one strap covering the full load of the body to one single point? Discounting the lap belts which are common in both set ups.

EDIT: also, I'm not disagreeing with you, but if this is the case, how to 3-point harnesses work?

18th February 2016, 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stissy

The direction of pull wont be off centre, itll still be forwards to the front of the car. But youre right, the inner strap would be put under more strain. Ive done some fag packet maths and worked it out. Its about 24-25% more over the inner one. Not ideal.

Haha. It already is a nightmare to get in and out of the back. But not impossible. If the harness bar was mounted to the b-pillars you would just have to go under it when getting in and out. You have to do that anyway with the harnesses in place. I doubt the rear bench will be used that often anyway. Its there just in case we need to carry a third passenger, and also to conceal whatever we have in the boot.

Welding would be just as easy I guess. But it's never going to be 100% safe. Even with the standard seatbelts the Saxo isn't really a safe car in an accident...

I think you're pretty much answering your own questions here dude.

You're acknowledging that you're placing uneven strain on the straps, you're acknowledging that's not ideal, and you're acknowledging that the saxo isn't exactly the car you'd pick through choice to be in in an accident.

Personally, I dunno why you'd acknowledge all that and still opt to cut corners with you (and your passengers ultimately) safety? Seems madness to me, but its your own choice to make in the long run I suppose.

18th February 2016, 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESD1711

I think you're pretty much answering your own questions here dude.

You're acknowledging that you're placing uneven strain on the straps, you're acknowledging that's not ideal, and you're acknowledging that the saxo isn't exactly the car you'd pick through choice to be in in an accident.

Personally, I dunno why you'd acknowledge all that and still opt to cut corners with you (and your passengers ultimately) safety? Seems madness to me, but its your own choice to make in the long run I suppose.

Safety is our concern. Otherwise I wouldn't be here asking for advice, I'd just get on with it and drive the car. I'm still trying to resolve the problem, it has nothing to do with cutting corners. The general consensus is that it's acceptable to use the rear lower seatbelt points to mount harnesses. I don't have a cage, so that's out the question, and I can't change the car.

18th February 2016, 08:37

no, using the standard belts is the only logical option, till you get a cage.

18th February 2016, 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by welshpug

no, using the standard belts is the only logical option, till you get a cage.

Ok. Cheers for the help.

18th February 2016, 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stissy

Safety is our concern. Otherwise I wouldn't be here asking for advice, I'd just get on with it and drive the car. I'm still trying to resolve the problem, it has nothing to do with cutting corners. The general consensus is that it's acceptable to use the rear lower seatbelt points to mount harnesses. I don't have a cage, so that's out the question, and I can't change the car.

Your quote at the top of page 2 suggested to me that you had resolved it to your satisfaction and that it would do fine.

("Just to close this out. We managed to resolve it at the weekend. We mounted the harnesses to the lower rear seatbelt mount, using the original seatbelt fixing points. The photo doesn't show the rear bench fitted, but we have got it in. Getting in and out of the back is near impossible with the harnesses in the way, but it's alright for occasional use.")

The general consensus has been (right from the very beginning of the thread) that there wouldn't be any great way to run a rear bench, AND harnesses, AND be able to carry a back seat passenger.

Theres been a fair bit of information passed your way - but you seem to have ignored most of it for whatever reason. I don't mean that to sound narky by the way - so don't take it the wrong way, but all the advice you need is already in the thread.

18th February 2016, 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESD1711

Your quote at the top of page 2 suggested to me that you had resolved it to your satisfaction and that it would do fine.

("Just to close this out. We managed to resolve it at the weekend. We mounted the harnesses to the lower rear seatbelt mount, using the original seatbelt fixing points. The photo doesn't show the rear bench fitted, but we have got it in. Getting in and out of the back is near impossible with the harnesses in the way, but it's alright for occasional use.")

The general consensus has been (right from the very beginning of the thread) that there wouldn't be any great way to run a rear bench, AND harnesses, AND be able to carry a back seat passenger.

Theres been a fair bit of information passed your way - but you seem to have ignored most of it for whatever reason. I don't mean that to sound narky by the way - so don't take it the wrong way, but all the advice you need is already in the thread.

I can change my views can't I? I'm now in agreement that the way I've done it is not the safest way. Which is why I'm still here. I've not ignored anything. People are giving different views. There are people in this thread, and on Saxp, who have used the same mounting points as me (some including the middle, some not) and are saying that's it's acceptable. I appreciate your help, I'm just trying to find the best solution - which could be to remove the harnesses entirely.

18th February 2016, 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by welshpug

no, using the standard belts is the only logical option, till you get a cage.

+1

6 characters

18th February 2016, 09:51

It seems it's sorted. We'll stick the standard belts back in this weekend then. Cheers lads.

24th February 2016, 03:48

Sorry to bump the thread but further to the posts in this thread it seems a bit odd to me that the Megane R26.R (as I'm sure of others cars that come with this configuration from factory) has a four point harnesses mounted in place of the rear bench,surely this classifies as safe to be able to go trough homologation?

All of this is to reply to the OP question,you could use a 4 point harnesses that's safer to use but no rear bench or 3 point ones.

24th February 2016, 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by VeiRoN

Sorry to bump the thread but further to the posts in this thread it seems a bit odd to me that the Megane R26.R (as I'm sure of others cars that come with this configuration from factory) has a four point harnesses mounted in place of the rear bench,surely this classifies as safe to be able to go trough homologation?

All of this is to reply to the OP question,you could use a 4 point harnesses that's safer to use but no rear bench or 3 point ones.

It is. According to FIA regulations it is perfectly safe to use the rear seatbelt mounting points providing the angle between the harnesses and seat is less than 45 degrees. This is stated a lot. One of the most trustworthy sources I found was an online ‘interview’ with Takata about dispelling myth and defining the correct way to mount harnesses (I’ll try to dig this out when I get chance).