Group N + Coilovers = No Suspension

1. boylin Infrequent Poster Joined: Jun 2013 Hall Green / Birmingham Posts: 139 VTS Track Car

   #1 7th November 2015, 14:54

   We have some coilovers fitted to our VTS and we noticed it was quite bouncy when braking on a track, so we jacked the leg up and it hits the bump stops in the dampers before the spring compresses, you can still turn the spring by hand.
   
   So we lifted the spring up using the rings on the legs, but the car was quite high with a large gap between the wheel and the arch, but it was much better than before on he track and it had some front suspension, but it's too high on the front. With the spring at the lowest setting, the car is the perfect height but has no travel on the springs and sits on the damper bump stops.
   
   It's almost as though the dampers are too long but they are bilstein group n, and we have baker bm top mounts. What's up with it, anyone help?
   
   
2. Mickswan Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Apr 2013 Jarrow Posts: 4022 2003 Icelandic Grey 16v VTR 1991 Daihatsu GTti

   #2 7th November 2015, 15:18

   Sounds like you'll need to use helper springs. Correct me if I'm wrong like.
3. welshpug Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2010 South Wales Posts: 3078 ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.

   #3 7th November 2015, 16:14

   group n stuff is rally so will sits much higher than a "track car"
4. boylin Infrequent Poster Joined: Jun 2013 Hall Green / Birmingham Posts: 139 VTS Track Car

   #4 7th November 2015, 16:25

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by welshpug group n stuff is rally so will sits much higher than a "track car"

   We've got the group n Tarmac dampers, thought Tarmac was for track and gravel was for rally?
5. boylin Infrequent Poster Joined: Jun 2013 Hall Green / Birmingham Posts: 139 VTS Track Car

   #5 7th November 2015, 18:43

   Here's a pic of our Group N dampers showing the length, don't suppose someone else happens to have done the same with some other dampers that gives a lowered ride height?
   
   
6. welshpug Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2010 South Wales Posts: 3078 ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.

   #6 7th November 2015, 23:17

   no, tarmac is for tarmac, not track.
7. willsy West Midlands Joined: Nov 2005 Nuneaton (West Mids) Posts: 13835 '64 Volvo V40 R’Design, '89 Ph1 309 GTi, ‘97 Mk1 S

   #7 8th November 2015, 21:41

   Bilstein Group N's are not designed to be low atall.
   
   The best dampers to use to run low with a custom coilover setup is the pugsport group N's if you can find any. They are able to be shortened aswel if necessary.
8. westwell_22 Regular Poster Joined: Nov 2008 Alnwick/Northumberland Posts: 258 Cobalt Blue 106

   #8 8th November 2015, 22:23

   So what's the lowest you can go on the Grp N's? if any lower at all?
   
   Reading this thread makes me think I'll be selling mine if I can't even go down at least 30mm.
   
   Anyone know the max spring rate they can take?
9. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

   #9 9th November 2015, 12:00

   Try running the top mounts on the top of the inner arch instead of underneath. See if that allows more travel with a correct ride height. Bilstein Group N dampers have a slightly longer piston than the B8 damper. You could sell these and go for a custom setup but its not cheap for Bilstein to revalve dampers...Might still be cheaper than the official Pugsport ones.
   
   Kev
10. westwell_22 Regular Poster Joined: Nov 2008 Alnwick/Northumberland Posts: 258 Cobalt Blue 106

    #10 10th November 2015, 01:12

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KamRacing Bilstein Group N dampers have a slightly longer piston than the B8 damper. Kev

    Can the Grp N handle a 30mm drop/250lb spring? or would I be better going for B8's with lower spring rate and slightly more travel from the damper. (car will be fast road/track)
11. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #11 10th November 2015, 10:22

    Plenty of customers have run 30mm lower. Have you fitted a bump stop or anything like that? If so it has an internal one so you need to take it off. As I mentioned yesterday, move the top mount too if you can to the opposite side to gain more suspension travel. I did that on my 205 without any problems whatsoever.
12. westwell_22 Regular Poster Joined: Nov 2008 Alnwick/Northumberland Posts: 258 Cobalt Blue 106

    #12 10th November 2015, 17:33

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KamRacing Plenty of customers have run 30mm lower. Have you fitted a bump stop or anything like that? If so it has an internal one so you need to take it off. As I mentioned yesterday, move the top mount too if you can to the opposite side to gain more suspension travel. I did that on my 205 without any problems whatsoever.

    Think you may have me confused with the op? Although I may have hijacked his thread a little
13. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #13 10th November 2015, 18:01

    i didnt notice lol
    I would say the Group N will handle up to around 200lb. People are using it on higher spring rates but I would say its not really valved for that.
    
    I would use max 180lb spring at the front if running standard torsion bars. Focus on where the car is used most and tailor it for that. It might not be the best then on circuit but you will have far better traction day to day.