Rough running after engine change

1. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

   #1 10th January 2016, 20:08

   After killing the engine at Cadwell I've replaced the J4 VTS with a JP4 VTS running on the J4 electrics, we can get the engine to start but it's running very rich or at least smells that way from the post http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=346564 the 2 error codes are
   
   * P0120 Throttle Position Sensor/Switch A Circuit Malfunction
   * P0505 Idle Control System Malfunction
   
   Any pointers as to where to look what to start looking for.
2. user_20080 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Dec 2007 smurfland. Posts: 17346 Ex saxo owner.

   #2 10th January 2016, 20:15

   First will be the throttle position sensor,location at the back of the throttle body.Check the wiring leading to it too.Second is the idle control valve also located on the throttle body.
   the icv may just need cleaning.
3. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

   #3 10th January 2016, 20:21

   Cheers for that it's going to be a slow burner as no garage & is getting cold at nights now
   
   Sent from my SM-T330 using Tapatalk
4. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

   #4 16th January 2016, 17:47

   Got chance to have a look today, as i took the TPS lead off it came off very easily a bit too easily if you know what I mean, so it may not have been connected correctly, either way took the throttle body completely off & gave it a good clean. The ICV fell apart when undone
   
   
   
   Is it supposed to do that or is it stuffed?
   
   But on putting it all back together it seemed to run a lot better & rev freely, couldn't take it for a drive as couldn't get it past the other cars.
   
   Edit:- Just been looking on Fleecebay & the ICV I have is not supposed to be for the 1.6VTS according to their look-up it has B32/00 J0359 on it, from their look-ups this is for a 1.4VTS, will it matter?
5. user_20080 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Dec 2007 smurfland. Posts: 17346 Ex saxo owner.

   #5 16th January 2016, 21:24

   Tbh for the cost of a new icv i'd just buy a new one mate.
6. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

   #6 2nd February 2016, 18:46

   Put a new ICV on, now when the car starts it immediately goes up to about 3K for about 10 seconds, then drops to 2K, then it hunts between 2 & 2.5K only left it running for about a minute but it doesn't seem to have any intention of not doing it. Battery has been disconnected for a while, can it be the ECU re-learning?
7. user_20080 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Dec 2007 smurfland. Posts: 17346 Ex saxo owner.

   #7 2nd February 2016, 19:37

   Turn the ignition key on/off 6 times without starting the car,it initialises the icv.If that does not work unplug the battery for 30 mins.
8. MartinObviously Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2012 Perth Posts: 3665 Peugeot 106 1.1 Turbo Peugeot 106 1.5D Turbo Peuge

   #8 2nd February 2016, 21:02

   There is no initialise procedure for the ICV. Turning the ignition on and off only opens the ICV.
   
   On a start, the ICV is always open (3000rpm) once it detects the engine is running the ECU sends the command to close the ICV until the idle speed is about 900.
   
   If the ICV sticks because of dirt (or new sticky rubber on the plunger) it won't work.
   Remove it and clean it with WD-40 and clean the housing it sits in. It needs to be spotless.
   
   If you've bought a £20-30 one off ebay, don't expect it to work very well or last more than 6 months.
9. Ben_SaxoForte Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Mar 2009 Stoke-on-trent Posts: 2640 Mk5 Golf GTTDI Mk2 VTR Project

   #9 3rd February 2016, 16:09

   If you're getting a new ICV I would recommend getting an original VDO unit as the cheaper ones can cause more problems. Obviously an original is more expensive but its worth it in the long run and will last much much longer
10. user_20080 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Dec 2007 smurfland. Posts: 17346 Ex saxo owner.

    #10 3rd February 2016, 18:54

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MartinObviously There is no initialise procedure for the ICV. Turning the ignition on and off only opens the ICV. On a start, the ICV is always open (3000rpm) once it detects the engine is running the ECU sends the command to close the ICV until the idle speed is about 900. If the ICV sticks because of dirt (or new sticky rubber on the plunger) it won't work. Remove it and clean it with WD-40 and clean the housing it sits in. It needs to be spotless. If you've bought a £20-30 one off ebay, don't expect it to work very well or last more than 6 months.

    I was going on a post made by Luthor who made the predator ecu's,he said to do this otherwise the car would rev high mate.
11. iSlayeR Established Member Joined: Aug 2009 King's lynn Posts: 2073 Turbocharged vtr

    #11 3rd February 2016, 23:08

    Got quoted 55£ from Citroen for a new ICV so not that much more compared to the ebay ones, I can second that the ebay ones are shit, I'm pretty sure that's why my engine runs like a dog atm
12. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

    #12 4th February 2016, 08:34

    We're off on holiday for 3 weeks from this weekend so it'll have to wait now, but it looks like I will be visiting Citroen on my return, would just like to be 100% before spending that kind of money
13. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

    #13 4th February 2016, 19:24

    Managed to get home before the light went tonight so had a quick look, think you guys are right I took the new one back off connected the power & couldn't feel anything, put the old one back & when giving it power could feel some movement. Then comparing the 2 they look different,
    
    
    
    Cleaned the old one up some more put it back on & it now runs not 100% but a lot better so when we get back I'll buy a new genuine one
    
    Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
14. dunne1145 L-plater Joined: Oct 2014 Posts: 43

    #14 12th February 2016, 22:23

    
    
    I deleted my ICV now I have a nice big throttle body😄👍
    
    
    Sent from my iPhone using my finger
15. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

    #15 12th March 2016, 18:02

    So tried to sort out the car today, first thing was the manifold had snapped so had to take that off & weld it all back up, looks like I didn't get it quite right as I now can't select reverse it's hitting the the exhaust but that's the least of my worries a track car doesn't need reserve 'often'.
    
    Put the PC with Lexia running onto it & it said there was 2 faults, cleared them ran the car both came back
    
    * P0202 - Cylinder 2 Injector Circuit Malfunction
    * P0120 Throttle Position Sensor/Switch A Circuit Malfunction
    
    Not 100% sure I have the right code for the first one, but it was something very similar, so I took the injection rail off & swapped injectors 2 & 3 around. Cleared the codes & then ran the engine again, still the same codes came up, I figured it 'should' have moved to Cylinder 3 if it was an injector fault. Took the rail off again & this time tested all the wiring, all of it was fine, weirdly the return at the injector end is Green but in the connector it was Grey but it all looks as it should. I then swapped all the injectors around again, only difference when I put it all back was I routed the cables slightly different & took them under the rail, started the car & all appeared well, it ran with no misfire & no codes in the engine. I thought I had cracked it.
    
    Took it for a short run down the road & all appeared to be fine until I tried to floor the throttle at that point it would cough & splutter before picking up, but on light throttle it was fine, but then after about 5 minutes it started acting up, it's massively over fuelling, & very difficult to keep running.
    
    Putting Lexia back on doesn't show up any errors. Tried Torque, but that can't seem to read any of the settings apart from revs & Dashcommand I can't even get it to pair with the bluetooth adaptor.
    
    So apart from taking it in to the middle of a field & putting a match to it I'm unsure what to do.
    
    Is there a decent diagnostic tool to buy that can read the codes & real time values its a 2003 so would have thought it should be ODB2 compliant, I don't mind spending a decent amount as it will come i handy, but I don't want a Chinese copy & can't afford Snapon
16. user_20080 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Dec 2007 smurfland. Posts: 17346 Ex saxo owner.

    #16 12th March 2016, 19:15

    The way to do it,is to read the codes fix the faults then clear the codes.Otherwise the code will re-appear.
17. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

    #17 12th March 2016, 19:19

    Which is what I did, there are now no codes according to Scantools within Lexia but it is still over fueling massively.
    
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18. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

    #18 13th March 2016, 14:16

    Been out again this morning, same problem (like it would go away overnight) the car starts okay, it will idle you can rev it & it's okay until it warms up then starts to struggle at higher revs. If you rev the engine you can see black smoke in the exhaust & the tip is sooting up.
    
    If it were a carb car I would say it was the choke that is sticking, so is it likely to be the lambda which is gone, although I'm surprised it's not throwing up an error code. I've had a PC with Lexia & a handheld scanner on & neither can now find any error codes. I've just changed out the ECU temp sensor as I figured if the ECU thought the engine was still cold it would fuel high, but that hasn't made any difference.
19. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

    #19 13th March 2016, 15:50

    Been out for another try, earlier it was not reading any faults but now we have the following I'm telling it that it has a MM48P ECU fitted
    
    Temporary fault
    Throttle position sensor signal. SC+, 0C
    
    Temporary fault
    Inlet air temperature sensor signal. SC+, 0C
    
    Permanent fault
    Richness regulation. Not specified
    
    If I clear them they come back, I have also used the Initialisation of auto-adaptation option but that doesn't seem to make any difference.
    
    Getting to the point where I've had enough now, shame it's not insured or it might catch fire.
20. user_20080 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Dec 2007 smurfland. Posts: 17346 Ex saxo owner.

    #20 13th March 2016, 18:19

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Phaeton Which is what I did, there are now no codes according to Scantools within Lexia but it is still over fueling massively. Sent from my SM-T330 using Tapatalk

    Two things spring to mind,first is a bad lambda sensor,2nd is the coil pack making it overfuel.
21. BUMMERS Regular Poster Joined: Feb 2016 manchester Posts: 256

    #21 13th March 2016, 18:30

    If we're assuming overfueling when warm I'd have thought lambda sensor and/or coolant temp sensor.
    
    Not sure how the coil pack would make it overfuel?
    
    If TPS is playing up the ECU might be seeing the throttle as being more open than it actually is and therefore adding fuel to match.
22. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

    #22 13th March 2016, 19:00

    Strangely enough took dog a walk & whilst I was out had a think, I came to the same conclusion about the lambda sensor, so since getting back I swapped the before & after cat lambda round (although no cat installed) made no difference & the values of for each lambda was the same depending on which position they were in.
    I also swapped over from the Saxo coil packs to the C2 coil pack again no difference.
    Disconnected the temperature sending with software connected & the value went right down.
    Codes were cleared between each change, in fact it was disconnected for 15 minutes whilst I changed over the lambda's
    
    The circuits are going from Open loop to Closed loop at 38c this is when I would have thought the fuelling would have changed & it should run leaner, it's like it's ignoring this fact.
23. MartinObviously Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2012 Perth Posts: 3665 Peugeot 106 1.1 Turbo Peugeot 106 1.5D Turbo Peuge

    #23 13th March 2016, 19:07

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Phaeton Been out for another try, earlier it was not reading any faults but now we have the following I'm telling it that it has a MM48P ECU fitted Temporary fault Throttle position sensor signal. SC+, 0C Temporary fault Inlet air temperature sensor signal. SC+, 0C Permanent fault Richness regulation. Not specified If I clear them they come back, I have also used the Initialisation of auto-adaptation option but that doesn't seem to make any difference. Getting to the point where I've had enough now, shame it's not insured or it might catch fire.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by stevo67 Two things spring to mind,first is a bad lambda sensor,2nd is the coil pack making it overfuel.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Phaeton Strangely enough took dog a walk & whilst I was out had a think, I came to the same conclusion about the lambda sensor, so since getting back I swapped the before & after cat lambda round (although no cat installed) made no difference & the values of for each lambda was the same depending on which position they were in. I also swapped over from the Saxo coil packs to the C2 coil pack again no difference. Disconnected the temperature sending with software connected & the value went right down. Codes were cleared between each change, in fact it was disconnected for 15 minutes whilst I changed over the lambda's The circuits are going from Open loop to Closed loop at 38c this is when I would have thought the fuelling would have changed & it should run leaner, it's like it's ignoring this fact.

    Have you changed the TPS? That can be the sole cause of overfuelling.
    Have you changed the Inlet Air Temp Sensor? (it's a minor role in fuelling mind you!)

    1 user thanked this post: Phaeton
24. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

    #24 13th March 2016, 19:34

    Not changed either, have a friend who also has a VTS so hoping to get his full throttle body off him this week to put on as a test.
    
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25. user_20080 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Dec 2007 smurfland. Posts: 17346 Ex saxo owner.

    #25 13th March 2016, 19:38

    With the engine running disconnect the tps,let us know what happens.

    1 user thanked this post: Phaeton
26. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

    #26 13th March 2016, 21:53

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by stevo67 With the engine running disconnect the tps,let us know what happens.

    At idle or try to rev?
    
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27. Chipwizards Frequent Poster Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 576

    #27 13th March 2016, 22:01

    MAP sensor is the primary load measure.
    If you unplug that the system defaults to throttle angle with an offset adjustment based uopn the number of ISCV steps because, without the adjustment, no account is made of air bypassing the throttle valve.
    Are you running it with or without the MAP connected?
    Have you adjusted the throttle stop to allow more air in now you've bogged up the bypass valve?
    How aggressive are the cams?
    If it has non-standard cams has the ECU been mapped to suit the lower intake depression?
    Is the cam timing correct?

    1 user thanked this post: Phaeton
28. Chipwizards Frequent Poster Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 576

    #28 13th March 2016, 22:03

    Is it rich under full load? If so it isn't lambda related because they are ignored at full load.
29. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

    #29 13th March 2016, 23:25

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Chipwizards MAP sensor is the primary load measure. If you unplug that the system defaults to throttle angle with an offset adjustment based uopn the number of ISCV steps because, without the adjustment, no account is made of air bypassing the throttle valve.

    Sorry for the dumb answer but is the MAP the the one at the opposite end to the throttle body in the plastic plenum? If so if that is disconnected the engine stops
    
    

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Chipwizards Are you running it with or without the MAP connected?

    As above if that is the MAP disconnecting stops the engine.
    
    

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Chipwizards Have you adjusted the throttle stop to allow more air in now you've bogged up the bypass valve?

    My car is running a standard VTS throttle body, the one with the bored out one is somebody else.
    
    

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Chipwizards How aggressive are the cams?

    Cams are standard C2 VTS cams that came with the JP4 engine
    
    

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Chipwizards If it has non-standard cams has the ECU been mapped to suit the lower intake depression?

    No nothing at present has been done to the ECU I was expecting it to run relatively okay & then arrange with yourself to get it mapped properly but don't want to bring a badly running car to you to spend half a day fixing it before you can get onto mapping.
    
    

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Chipwizards Is the cam timing correct?

    Not been checked since been running but it does seem okay but I can check, will it run if a cam is a tooth out?
    
    

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Chipwizards Is it rich under full load? If so it isn't lambda related because they are ignored at full load.

    Just at light load it seems okay, if you increase the revs gently it will rise, it will tick over a bit lumpy but if you try to rev hard it bogs down & you can see black smoke.
30. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

    #30 14th March 2016, 17:13

    Is this the MAP sensor?
    
    
    
    If it is as soon as I unplug it the engine stops.
    
    @stevo67 Started the car again & this time disconnected the TPS, the engine revs went up to about 1800, but it sounds a lot better, it would also freely rev all the way up & there seemed to be a lot less black smoke, it any at all.
    
    Hopefully the sons friend will have taken his throttle body off tonight so we can fit it to ours tomorrow but it does look like the TPS is the favourite culprit at the moment.
31. Chipwizards Frequent Poster Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 576

    #31 14th March 2016, 18:04

    Yes that's the MAP sensor. If you unplug it the engine may stall, but once restarted it should run reasonably acceptably well, it's running in 'default' mode if you like so that you can drive home should the MAP fail. It's also part of OBD-II regulations but that's another story...
    
    If it runs badly (dodgy idle and a bit of stalling excepted) it's very likely the TPS at fault.
32. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

    #32 18th March 2016, 19:00

    It's had a new TPS, ICV all codes went apart from P0170 so fitted a new 1st Lsmbda but still got running issues, it's like it's got a rev limiter at 2.5k & only if you accelerate very very gently can you get it past it. The engine light is now on which it wasn't before, 1 scanner says no codes which can't be right if light is on. My Lexia is now failing to load so can't use that will try again tomorrow.
    
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33. user_20080 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Dec 2007 smurfland. Posts: 17346 Ex saxo owner.

    #33 18th March 2016, 20:28

    With the tps ,what condition is the wiring in mate?
34. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

    #34 18th March 2016, 20:36

    Think it's okay, nothing obvious
    
    Annoying thing is that the car ran fine then I cambelt snapped so engine swapped for this JP4 thinking it was an upgrade now have all these problems it should have been so simple.
    
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35. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

    #35 19th March 2016, 08:04

    Been googling & one suggestion is an air leak could it be the inlet manifold not sealed against the block?
    
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36. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

    #36 19th March 2016, 14:36

    So disconnecting the MAP sensor & then restarting the cars seems to make it run a lot better & can accelerate through the 2.5k rev limiter so that looks like the next piece to change. Does anyone have a known good 96 394 189 80?
37. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

    #37 20th March 2016, 19:05

    Just been out with a compression tester getting 190PSI across all 4 cylinders, which means valve timing must be right doesn't it?
38. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

    #38 28th March 2016, 15:01

    The saga continues, it's had TPS, ICV, MAP & 1st Lambda & still got issues, today managed to borrow an ECU off my son's friend, put that on & the car runs fine, it pulls through the range with no misfire or limited to 2.5K so it would appear the ECU is faulty.
    
    I sent it off to be unlocked, is there a chance they could have screwed it up? Or is it likely to just be coincidence, it was working fine in the car when the engine got trashed, but then when the engine was changed it wouldn't un-immoblise (if that is a word) we thought it was the key or the black box but I suppose it could have been the ECU.
39. MartinObviously Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2012 Perth Posts: 3665 Peugeot 106 1.1 Turbo Peugeot 106 1.5D Turbo Peuge

    #39 28th March 2016, 22:43

    Probably concidence.
    
    It's not uncommon for these ECU's to just stop working. That's what happened in my GTi. except the engine still ran.
40. BUMMERS Regular Poster Joined: Feb 2016 manchester Posts: 256

    #40 2nd April 2016, 02:07

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Phaeton The saga continues, it's had TPS, ICV, MAP & 1st Lambda & still got issues, today managed to borrow an ECU off my son's friend, put that on & the car runs fine, it pulls through the range with no misfire or limited to 2.5K so it would appear the ECU is faulty. I sent it off to be unlocked, is there a chance they could have screwed it up? Or is it likely to just be coincidence, it was working fine in the car when the engine got trashed, but then when the engine was changed it wouldn't un-immoblise (if that is a word) we thought it was the key or the black box but I suppose it could have been the ECU.

    At least you've finally found the cause!
41. Phaeton Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2015 Sunny Worksop Posts: 441 1989 MK1 MR2 with V6 3.0L Camry engine

    #41 2nd April 2016, 12:37

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BUMMERS At least you've finally found the cause!

    Fingers crossed
    
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