Reccomend me a Gearbox!

  1. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2006 Banbury Posts: 4623 Saxo Rally Car Evo 6
    #1
    Ive just realised I know puff all about gearboxes and after knackering my 3rd one and my 4th clutch, I would like to spend abit of dosh on making a decent box.

    So please can someone point me in the right direction for:

    Clutch
    Flywheel
    Gearbox (VTS Ratios)
    Differential

    All this will be getting abused and will be on a cammed vts, so I need it to be able to take punishment.

    Thanks in advance.

    Colin.
  2. Super Moderator Joined: Sep 2006 Wakefield Posts: 14427 Golf GT
    #2
    pm GOD106GTI
  3. Infrequent Poster Joined: Jun 2006 Telford, West mids Posts: 212 Black Mk1 VTR
    #3
    XSi + ATB.
  4. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #4
    get your vts box reconditioned with an XSI final drive and an ATB diff.

    you can lighten and balance your flywheel if you want but alot dont, qep are who you want here.

    standard valeo clutches are fine imo for 95% if NA applications
  5. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #5
    also learn to drive with mechanical sypathy, it will help with the longevity of the boxes.
  6. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2006 Banbury Posts: 4623 Saxo Rally Car Evo 6
    #6
    I will admit my style of driving kills gearboxes!

    Is the XSi final drive shorter?

    And yes I was thinking of a L and B flywheel. Can you buy them off the shelf from QEP?

    ATBs are quite expensive arent they?
  7. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2006 northumberland Posts: 7693 pulsar gtir, mk4 astra sxi
    #7
    £600ish doelivered.
  8. Frequent Poster Joined: May 2007 Wirral Posts: 606 mk5 Ibiza Cupra Bocanegra
    #8
    The L/B fly wheels are £120 from QEP. They charge you an extra £40 which you get back when you return your old fly wheel so they can L/B a new one.

    I have one, there great. QEP's service is outstanding too. They have them in stock at the moment too. I help them source a few spares you see.

    Again I think the shorter ratio of the 1.4 Xsi box final drive will be spot on for you.

    Maybe speak to CARWORX as you can get the box shot peened helping it stand up to more abuse.

    The whole refurb including everything (clutch, fly wheel, ATB, XSi final drive and refurb) will probably cost you a fair bit (£1300 plus) but will transform your car!

    I have a black diamond clutch which I really rate. Really good for fast launches as it handles 20% more torque but still remains good for day to day driving.

    Hope this helps.
  9. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #9
    interesting you rate black dimond, as ive heard nothing but problems from previous people who used them.

    valeos are perfectly fine imo
  10. Frequent Poster Joined: May 2007 Wirral Posts: 606 mk5 Ibiza Cupra Bocanegra
    #10
    I'd never heard the problems as I used to use another forum. It really is great though. Took a little getting used to but I like it alot.

    What things have been said?
  11. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #11
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mardon View Post
    I'd never heard the problems as I used to use another forum. It really is great though. Took a little getting used to but I like it alot.

    What things have been said?
    they dont last long, slip easily, have a nasty bite point etc..

    have heard lots and lots of negative reviews.
  12. Frequent Poster Joined: May 2007 Wirral Posts: 606 mk5 Ibiza Cupra Bocanegra
    #12
    The bite is ether "on of off" until you get used to it. It doesn't slip but its still pretty new..

    I'll report back after a few 1000 miles.
  13. Scotland Joined: Jul 2005 Edinburgh Posts: 9556 Saxo 1.6i 16v VTS, 2 Classic Minis
    #13
    Someone mind giving me a quick run through of the XSI final drive.

    I assume its a model of 106? How does it compare to VTS/GTi etc in terms of engine size / gear ratios? (Pug noob here, even though i practically drive one )
  14. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #14
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mystic View Post
    Someone mind giving me a quick run through of the XSI final drive.

    I assume its a model of 106? How does it compare to VTS/GTi etc in terms of engine size / gear ratios? (Pug noob here, even though i practically drive one )
    106xsi 1.4 is the one i talk about.

    basically all sports gearsets are the same, (vts, gti, xsi, rallye)
    the final drives are what make them a different box, the final drives also known as the CWP (crown wheel and pinionshaft)

    the xsi final drive will give better in gear performance due to the number of teeth on it
  15. Scotland Joined: Jul 2005 Edinburgh Posts: 9556 Saxo 1.6i 16v VTS, 2 Classic Minis
    #15
    Ah right, so by better performance i assume thats a lower top speed aswell?

    You have any comparison figures (that i might understand ) between the vts etc final drive & the xsi one? top speed of either on a standard vts limiter?

    Or am i well off?
  16. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #16
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mystic View Post
    Ah right, so by better performance i assume thats a lower top speed aswell?

    You have any comparison figures (that i might understand ) between the vts etc final drive & the xsi one? top speed of either on a standard vts limiter?

    Or am i well off?
    top speed will be redced yes.

    go on ssc its in the FAQ bit, i dont have time today to bring it across for everyone
  17. Scotland Joined: Jul 2005 Edinburgh Posts: 9556 Saxo 1.6i 16v VTS, 2 Classic Minis
    #17
    Cheers mate, i'll have a look on SSC for it
  18. Saxperience Addict Joined: Oct 2006 Inside Your Girlfriend Posts: 12190 Fabia vRS
    #18
    Not been mentioned but i have an axgt gearbox and its the same ratios as the rallye box so very good acceleration.
  19. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Aug 2004 Kunt & Sorrey Posts: 5763 Rep mobiles & Joes ma
    #19
    most ax gt boxes won't fit and have smaller bearings. all of the mk1 ones that is. the mk2 ones are the same ratios as vts box pretty much/totally.

    what are you breaking on the boxes? can't tell you what you need to do to stop them breaking unless you know what is actually breaking. derr.
  20. Newbie Joined: Mar 2007 Hampshire Posts: 19
    #20
    Go for a rallye box!
  21. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #21
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by westiejack View Post
    Go for a rallye box!
    try finding one lol!

    and imo the final drive of one makes fuel economy alot worse due to such high revving at motorway speeds and the low top speed.
  22. Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)
    #22
    and if you are feeling flush get a nice Be3 conversion kit for £ 400.00 and put a proper gearbox on
    You could spend £2k on a competition gearset for the ma gearbox for a 5 speed one (the 6 speed costs £9k!)
  23. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Aug 2006 Dartford Kent Posts: 5251 Pug 1007 HDi Sport (daily) / Abarth 500
    #23
    So ok if wer talking about shorting the final drive can somebody give me a comparison:

    My VTS does 80mph at 4,000rpm

    how would that change with a short final drive are you saying it would inrease to say 80mph at 5,000rmp? but getting there alot quicker

    I rarely take the car over the magical ton only when rep mobiles race up behind me and flash me so a just put my foot down, so what kinda top speed are we talking about.

    Say a standard S tops out a 120mph-130mph (in the real world) by switching to the shorter final drive how much is that gons drop by or to?
  24. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Aug 2004 Kunt & Sorrey Posts: 5763 Rep mobiles & Joes ma
    #24
    The top speed could potentially increase using a shorter box. it depends where maximum power is made.

    Maximum power on a standard engine is 6.6k or something. if it requires 120bhp to keep the car moving at a steady 130mph then you need to have the car making 120bhp when it is doing that speed if the gearbox is too short you will run out of revs before then, if it is too long the revs will be too low and it will me making 110bhp when it should be doing 130 mph so it won't actually get there in the first place.

    On a standard vts box 6k=120, 7k = 140. therefore 6.6k = 133mph

    bang on pretty much

    with my S2 rallye box i am getting 125mph at maximum power, however the power doesn't really tail off at all, and with the breathing mods will usually peak at about 7k anyway. at soft limiter 7250 i get 137mph. All good
  25. Scotland Joined: Jul 2005 Edinburgh Posts: 9556 Saxo 1.6i 16v VTS, 2 Classic Minis
    #25
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85 View Post
    and imo the final drive of one makes fuel economy alot worse due to such high revving at motorway speeds and the low top speed.
    Thats what i was thinking, id rather the cheaper motorway miles since i'm gonna be on motorways longer than im gonna be racing in 5th gear.

    Think i'll just stick to my Sbox
  26. Frequent Poster Joined: May 2007 Wirral Posts: 606 mk5 Ibiza Cupra Bocanegra
    #26
    The XSI box is still a good compromise.
  27. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2006 Banbury Posts: 4623 Saxo Rally Car Evo 6
    #27
    This has turned out to be a good thread. Thanks to all those who has contributed!

    I wouldnt mind a straight cut box haha.

    Excellent advise throughout. Im going to have to recon my VTS box before I do much else lol.

    Thanks,

    Col.
  28. Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)
    #28
    if you are going to go for straight cut or the adaptor bellhousing for a be3 gearbox (which would be easily strong enough and cheap to replace) then its probably worth saving the money you would pay on reconing your current box.
  29. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Apr 2007 Bournemouth Posts: 15289 '04 VW Transporter.
    #29
    from what ive seen the s2 ralli is the box to get aint it ?
  30. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #30
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MiniGibbo View Post
    from what ive seen the s2 ralli is the box to get aint it ?
    s1 rallye is the more wanted box. then 1.4xsi.
  31. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: May 2006 Bedford Posts: 7457 Saxo VTS Peugeot 306 GTI-6 Astra SRI
    #31
    Ryan is right, though I don't agree that it's a good choice.

    Crossies 16valve Rallye was topping out in fifth everywhere on the ring and doing 120mph to catch the ferry is fine in a VTS, less good in the red zone with the Rallye box.

    I find the VTS box is ideal. 3rd and 4th on track mainly. Having to change into 5th is a pain, though I do uise fifth a lot on the ring to keep the revs down a bit and give the engine some love.

    Agree with Kamracing, a BE3 box would be nice, I can't understand why they didn't give the Saxo the BE as standard, the MA box dates back to the Visa and frankly isn't up to 100lbft of torque
  32. Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)
    #32
    i agree. they are made of chocolate compared to the be boxes, and the be choice is massive £650 would get you the adaptor bellhousing and a reconditioned gearbox. i'm guessing you use a standard tu clutch.

    If anyone is interested in the kit I will find out from the manufacturer what needs doing for the conversion.
  33. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #33
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CampDavid View Post
    Ryan is right, though I don't agree that it's a good choice.

    Crossies 16valve Rallye was topping out in fifth everywhere on the ring and doing 120mph to catch the ferry is fine in a VTS, less good in the red zone with the Rallye box.

    it depends on what you want though, most people now are wanting a box for a car which they just intend on doing the odd few track days and sprinting, which is why the s1 box is now so highly saught after.

    personally if i was doing long miles id not use one id go for the xsi and still have some nice in gear stuff.

    alexs car is totally different now the s2 box is on.

    MA boxes personally are only weak if people cant drive properly, driven correctly with mechanicial sympathy you still shouldnt be able to kill the box easy
  34. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: May 2006 Bedford Posts: 7457 Saxo VTS Peugeot 306 GTI-6 Astra SRI
    #34
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85 View Post
    MA boxes personally are only weak if people cant drive properly, driven correctly with mechanicial sympathy you still shouldnt be able to kill the box easy
    I'd disagree with that, mines fucked and I never nail it that hard. They just aren't up to the job.
  35. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #35
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CampDavid View Post
    I'd disagree with that, mines fucked and I never nail it that hard. They just aren't up to the job.
    yours was just synchros though wasnt it dave?

    only a few track days, not exactly taking it easy though is it
  36. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 7705 Saxo VTS
    #36
    Mines been ok, 110k and a track day. no probs..
  37. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: May 2006 Bedford Posts: 7457 Saxo VTS Peugeot 306 GTI-6 Astra SRI
    #37
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85 View Post
    yours was just synchros though wasnt it dave?

    only a few track days, not exactly taking it easy though is it
    Diff bearings.

    I'll let you know when it's out of the car and in bits
  38. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #38
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CampDavid View Post
    Diff bearings.

    I'll let you know when it's out of the car and in bits
    ah nice then! not exactly a small job then.
  39. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: May 2006 Bedford Posts: 7457 Saxo VTS Peugeot 306 GTI-6 Astra SRI
    #39
    I've got another box to go in, just swapping them over
  40. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #40
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CampDavid View Post
    I've got another box to go in, just swapping them over
    rebuild the old one with an ATB??
  41. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: May 2006 Bedford Posts: 7457 Saxo VTS Peugeot 306 GTI-6 Astra SRI
    #41
    I'll probably just flog the car to be honest, fancy RWD
  42. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Aug 2004 Kunt & Sorrey Posts: 5763 Rep mobiles & Joes ma
    #42
    assooooooot
  43. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #43
    fair enough.

    e30 325i then?
  44. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: May 2006 Bedford Posts: 7457 Saxo VTS Peugeot 306 GTI-6 Astra SRI
    #44
    MX5 I was thinking!
  45. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #45
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CampDavid View Post
    MX5 I was thinking!
  46. Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)
    #46
    they are a fantastic drivers car with brilliant handling. Only issue is they are underpowered but that can be solved with a bolt of supercharger kit :d
  47. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #47
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KamRacing View Post
    they are a fantastic drivers car with brilliant handling. Only issue is they are underpowered but that can be solved with a bolt of supercharger kit :d
    i know they have a great reputation for handling add that to the fact they should be absolutely bulletproof, just a shame mazda fitted it wich such a low power lump. i was just expecting him to say something a bit less 'midlife hairdresser crisis' which the mx5 tends to scream out.
  48. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: May 2006 Bedford Posts: 7457 Saxo VTS Peugeot 306 GTI-6 Astra SRI
    #48
    1.8is has 140bhp, which is enough to be getting on with.

    Should be a nice daily driver IMO

    All depends on me selling the Saxo first
  49. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #49
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CampDavid View Post
    1.8is has 140bhp, which is enough to be getting on with.

    Should be a nice daily driver IMO

    All depends on me selling the Saxo first
    at least its gonna be a different in the carpark at work to the cliosports you said everyone has!

    have you read sandys 1.4hillclimb thread on the rallye reg! very interesting read!