Throttle bodies and cams - here we go

5th June 2007, 00:14

Firstly, sorry if this is in the wrong section, it was a toss up between here and the queries section.

I've been on to QEP with regard to their TB setup, and after a few days I've heard back from them. I simply asked them for a break-down of what they have to offer for a complete TB set up for my 106. Here's what they've given me:

KMS ECU £420 + Vat
Adaptor Loom (for single plug cars) £120+ Vat
KMS Wideband Lambda Sensor & Controller £240 + Vat (£300 + Vat for display option)

Direct to Head TB's £900 + Vat (Inc air horns & Linkage)
TPS Sensor £30 + vat

I'll do the math for you, it's a grand total (inc. VAT) of just over £2000. It's worth noting that this price doesn't include mapping of installation...

I know exactly where I'm going for the mapping if I decide to get this kit, so let's put that cost to the side for now. But I'll need to get the installation and loom done, not completely sure how that's going to go.

Now the question I'm really wondering, is cam shafts, and do I change from the current 708s I'm using? Considering the demand for 708s, I would have thought I wouldn't have any issue selling them if I was to buy another pair... So that would help cover the cost slighty. BUT, and it's a big but, what other cams could / should I go for? What would compliment the KMS TB set up the best? Can I go further without having to do any drastic modification to the head? If anyone is pretty knowledgeable with different ranges of cam shafts, please lay down some options, I'd really appreciate it.

So, is it a

or a

for the KMS / DTH TBs?

5th June 2007, 00:25

If you consider it a lot of money, I wouldn't bother. Not just because it costs a lot. But because I don't think you'll find yourself satisfied with the outcome.

708s after TBs generally put power upto 170-180bhp, which isn't a lot more than just 708s.
However, power should be improved along the whole rev range.
And noise, is another selling factor.

But thats it. For that money.
If you can cope with spending that much, for that much. Then do it

However, its a lot of money, that you won't see much return on in the future, so maybe it could be better spent elsewhere?

(Sorry for the essay)

5th June 2007, 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowed_fury

If you consider it a lot of money, I wouldn't bother. Not just because it costs a lot. But because I don't think you'll find yourself satisfied with the outcome.

708s after TBs generally put power upto 170-180bhp, which isn't a lot more than just 708s.
However, power should be improved along the whole rev range.
And noise, is another selling factor.

But thats it. For that money.
If you can cope with spending that much, for that much. Then do it

However, its a lot of money, that you won't see much return on in the future, so maybe it could be better spent elsewhere?

(Sorry for the essay)

Some good advise there, if it were me Toad I would go for it. End of the day
it is a lot of money but you know you will enjoy it. Depends what you want
from the car at this stage..

5th June 2007, 00:37

708s and tbs wont make 180! 708s alone make between 155-158 on average, daveP on rallye reg only made 165 irc on 708s and dcoes, so expect similar.

708s personally are a good set up. toat you could ask matt for a custom grind on hydraulic lifters, he will know how mad you can go without pistons needing rebating/forgies.

you dont buy TBS for huge power as such, they give you the ability to run wild cams, however they also improve throttle response and should give alot more midrange rather than just peak power

5th June 2007, 00:50

Thanks for the comments chaps!

Shadow - I agree, it's a lot of money indeed. However, I've come so far already, it think I have to see it though if you know what I mean?

Rushy - I'm so close to doing it mate, I really am. I just need to make sure I know exactly what I'm doing... Hehe.

Ryan - My car made just 154 BHP from Wayne. But after I got the big valve head done and a re-adjustment of the cam timing at this rally place in Cheltenham, man... The difference is really quite phenomenal. And I'm not just saying that because I spent sh*t loads on the head, promise!

In addition to the lightness of the car and the S1 box that just went in, I'm lost for words. I need to get some more vids up of that speedo, hehe.

The trouble at the moment is idle, it's shocking. The engine rocks fiercely! From what I can gather, the stand-alone ECU and TBs can help cure this slightly...?

So, if i decided on these "hydraulic lifter" do you know what cams I could run? I've sent an Email back to Matt, asking about the cam / modification issue, and also about finding the best fit air horns...

5th June 2007, 00:50

Catcams 803, Iapel High Comp pistons, Iapel I section steel rods, ported, flowed, big valves, solid lifters, pug sport sump baffle kit, genuine pugsport DTH throttle bodies, genuine pugsport maxi 4-2-1 manifold

that makes 183 bhp btw.

5th June 2007, 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Thanks for the comments chaps!

Shadow - I agree, it's a lot of money indeed. However, I've come so far already, it think I have to see it though if you know what I mean?

Rushy - I'm so close to doing it mate, I really am. I just need to make sure I know exactly what I'm doing... Hehe.

Ryan - My car made just 154 BHP from Wayne. But after I got the big valve head done and a re-adjustment of the cam timing at this rally place in Cheltenham, man... The difference is really quite phenomenal. And I'm not just saying that because I spent sh*t loads on the head, promise!

In addition to the lightness of the car and the S1 box that just went in, I'm lost for words. I need to get some more vids up of that speedo, hehe.

The trouble at the moment is idle, it's shocking. The engine rocks fiercely! From what I can gather, the stand-alone ECU and TBs can help cure this slightly...?

So, if i decided on these "hydraulic lifter" do you know what cams I could run? I've sent an Email back to Matt, asking about the cam / modification issue, and also about finding the best fit air horns...

hydraulic lifters irc should only really be revved to about 8K max (theyre what are standard on 16v), some push theirs harder but they wont last very long, so this really limits the engine, as if you went for cams that had a peak power at say 8.5K then you will never be able to hit that power on hydraulic lifters. However this is when fitting solid lifters overcomes this, these can be revved much higher (but they cost) so then you can run the much wilder cam where the power is all up at 8.5k etc...

personally i dont see why you should sawy from 708s, josh is gonna run 708s on his with forgies and TBs. As i expect you still want it to be a respectable daily driver and dont want all the power un usable.

Tbs do tend to help with the idle abit.

s1 box - like my advice on that then?? i think i need a passenger ride

5th June 2007, 00:54

So WTF did Bic do to get 209BHP???

Hehe, peak power it great and all, but if I can produce good power in an effetive area in the rev range, that will be spot on. I'm not looking for forged pistons, I think that's getting too far fetched for me. If I can get some slightly higher duration / lift cams in there with just these lifters than you mention, I think that will do the business.

5th June 2007, 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

So WTF did Bic do to get 209BHP???

Hehe, peak power it great and all, but if I can produce good power in an effetive area in the rev range, that will be spot on. I'm not looking for forged pistons, I think that's getting too far fetched for me. If I can get some slightly higher duration / lift cams in there with just these lifters than you mention, I think that will do the business.

speak to paulM on ssc, he is running 'only 708s' with some DCOEs and the sandy brown inlet manifold, hes really really happy at the way the car drives tbh and where the powaaaaa is.

bic spent many many thousands to get that figure

5th June 2007, 00:59

Interesting... My peak power at with the 708s is "apparently" still at 6600 rpm, which is boggo standardo! Odd, never got to the bottom of that one!

So, if I could find someting that would give peak power nearer say, 7.2k/7.3k, I wouldn't need to rev over 8k really would I?

You want a ride? Didn't you say you actually lived fairly close mate? The S1 box is really quite superb. I slamed it down today in 2nd when I was sitting at 5000 rpm and it nearly tok my neck off, lol.

5th June 2007, 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85

speak to paulM on ssc, he is running 'only 708s' with some DCOEs and the sandy brown inlet manifold, hes really really happy at the way the car drives tbh and where the powaaaaa is.

bic spent many many thousands to get that figure

Yeah, flash git... LoL!

5th June 2007, 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Interesting... My peak power at with the 708s is "apparently" still at 6600 rpm, which is boggo standardo! Odd, never got to the bottom of that one!

So, if I could find someting that would give peak power nearer say, 7.2k/7.3k, I wouldn't need to rev over 8k really would I?

You want a ride? Didn't you say you actually lived fairly close mate? The S1 box is really quite superb. I slamed it down today in 2nd when I was sitting at 5000 rpm and it nearly tok my neck off, lol.

haha! im based in kent! ill have to give you a shout when mines on the road.

most tend to rev to 7800 for safety, matt will be able to advise you on what cams will work best with the head/bodies imo

5th June 2007, 01:06

Yeah, I just google'd "Tonbridge", I would guess roughly an hours drive away. Or probably more like and hour and half, as I find I'm now driving at 60mph on the motorways!

5th June 2007, 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Yeah, I just google'd "Tonbridge", I would guess roughly an hours drive away. Or probably more like and hour and half, as I find I'm now driving at 60mph on the motorways!

haha!! due to the rpm!

11th June 2007, 14:41

I've had word back from Matthew...

"Hi,

A wilder set of camshafts can be run with the throttle bodies and still retain a good idle.
The problem is valve springs and piston/valve clearance.

We have several profiles not currently listed which would be ideal.

You either need forged pistons (£450 + Vat) or bigger cutouts in the std pistons (160 + Vat) as well as valve springs & retainers (£208.80 + Vat/Set).

For the 106/saxo's we use 60mm trumpets as these are the longest that will fit and still have room for an air filter."

It's all adding up!

11th June 2007, 14:48

vtr130 has got 708's and is running throttle bodies might be worth Pm'ing

him

Got to admit is sounds immense

11th June 2007, 14:54

i have to admit that the sound of a 16v at full chat on tb's brings out the child grin everytime. I turned down a rather high spec turbo 8v engine because I couldnt bear to part with the addiction of bodies

11th June 2007, 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

i have to admit that the sound of a 16v at full chat on tb's brings out the child grin everytime. I turned down a rather high spec turbo 8v engine because I couldnt bear to part with the addiction of bodies

that deserves a

bodies rock my cock.

11th June 2007, 15:25

Any questions toad pm me i can advise! If you do run larger cams than 708's then you will get big power, but you will find it harder to get traction. It all depends on what you want, and if your ar is used everyday or not.

11th June 2007, 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

So WTF did Bic do to get 209BHP???

Hehe, peak power it great and all, but if I can produce good power in an effetive area in the rev range, that will be spot on. I'm not looking for forged pistons, I think that's getting too far fetched for me. If I can get some slightly higher duration / lift cams in there with just these lifters than you mention, I think that will do the business.

Bic has a 206gti engine! Nd there isn't a standard part on it!

11th June 2007, 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtr130

Bic has a 206gti engine! Nd there isn't a standard part on it!

not anymore he doesnt

hes allready talking about another engine 2.0L

11th June 2007, 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtr130

Any questions toad pm me i can advise! If you do run larger cams than 708's then you will get big power, but you will find it harder to get traction. It all depends on what you want, and if your ar is used everyday or not.

Thanks mate, very kind of you. I'd really love to have the chance to drive TB'd 106 / Saxo, to give me an idea what I'd be getting myself in to. But certainly mate, I've got lot's of questions, so don't be suprised if you find a long PM coming your way some time!

I'm stuck in 2 minds here, do I stick with the 708's, or do I go for something with an even higher profile...? What's making the decision hard is this really:

1) Would the gains in sticking with the 708's warrant the £3k I'd mostly end up spending?
2) For probably another £1k - £1.3k I could get more more power, BUT this just adds to already heafty bill.

I'm not sure what to do!

11th June 2007, 16:05

buy craigs engine.

sell yours.

job done

11th June 2007, 16:06

Risky...

11th June 2007, 16:08

has the power there, the bodies, pre mapped etc..

11th June 2007, 16:11

How do I know it all OK? No disrespect to Craig, but it's a risky move for me.

11th June 2007, 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

How do I know it all OK? No disrespect to Craig, but it's a risky move for me.

its still in the car, could ask him to go and drive the engine check it runs ok etc..

just another option there mate thats all.

11th June 2007, 16:14

Also any money you save you can use to do any extra's you want

Just I thought...

11th June 2007, 16:25

From a financial point of view, you're spot on. I'm just very nervous when it comes to stuff like this. It doesn't help when a friend of mine who just recently bought a Fiat Coop Turbo, found the engine was finished after the previous owner ran too much boost, and he had to pay over £3k to get it all re-built...

I will aske Craig for a price, but I'll still be well nervous.

11th June 2007, 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

From a financial point of view, you're spot on. I'm just very nervous when it comes to stuff like this. It doesn't help when a friend of mine who just recently bought a Fiat Coop Turbo, found the engine was finished after the previous owner ran too much boost, and he had to pay over £3k to get it all re-built...

I will aske Craig for a price, but I'll still be well nervous.

same with anything though dude, take your chances, thing is he has the forgies etc.. so shouldnt see any problems there, the headwork was done by QEP etc.. so i would see it should have been able to take stick (something your gonna give it anyway) only thing id do is wang some solid lifters in if he has not allreay done so.

its just showing there are a few options mate thats all

11th June 2007, 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85

buy craigs engine.

sell yours.

job done

Whats this i read.... what has craigs engine got and how much does he want.

11th June 2007, 16:32

How much do you think I'd be looking at to get it fitted? I'd never attempt it myself!

Also, I'd have to pay in cash, and I don't have that sort of money floating about in paper form if you know what I mean!

It seems odd how he wants to sell it so badly, I guess that worried me a bit too.

11th June 2007, 16:32

yeh craigs engine looked nice at modded nats, makes big power aswell, also he has an lsd

Nd an engine with 708's and boddies rip mate, i ran a 14.0 dead 1/4 mile that shows how well they can go!

11th June 2007, 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ste_1

Whats this i read.... what has craigs engine got and how much does he want.

why dont you ask craig and find out.

11th June 2007, 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

How much do you think I'd be looking at to get it fitted? I'd never attempt it myself!

Also, I'd have to pay in cash, and I don't have that sort of money floating about in paper form if you know what I mean!

It seems odd how he wants to sell it so badly, I guess that worried me a bit too.

donno but it wont be difficult yourself as his is a 106, if the looms are the same its a straight swap.

11th June 2007, 16:43

Don't know because it will be a standalone ecu, but one usually they have to be cut and soldered i thought... You'd probably be looking around £800 minimum labour!!

11th June 2007, 16:43

Hehe, I'm no mechanic!

11th June 2007, 16:45

If the price was good enough, I'd take on the task i reckon. But if he wants big bucks, I'd be better off sticking to the original plan...

11th June 2007, 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtr130

Don't know because it will be a standalone ecu, but one usually they have to be cut and soldered i thought... You'd probably be looking around £800 minimum labour!!

KMS do an adaptor loom so its plug and play, depends if craig has it

11th June 2007, 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Hehe, I'm no mechanic!

neither am i but i still gave it ago, alex has had to do the wiring though as its a bit of a mixmash on mine lol!

we did 3 engines in about a day

we borrowed a crane

11th June 2007, 17:07

I wonder how much he wants for the it...

11th June 2007, 17:12

probz bout 3.5k

11th June 2007, 17:16

Then it's definately not worth it in my case. I've PM'd him anyway.

11th June 2007, 17:47

Trust me he wnts a fair bit! But tuning engines aint cheap

11th June 2007, 20:15

Well my ears must have been burning.

Its not expensive as it sounds as when you add up yours which comes to about 2k then you add the extras i have rough prices
:big valve head=£800
:Uprated spring an retainers£200
:high comps=£500
:Bottom end reboring an rebuilding£400
:Gearbox with LSD=£500
:bigger injector=180
:bigger cams+=£200
All these are plus VAT
The kms i have has wide band an display etc

All the engine was built using geniue gaskets etc. Then you have the labour to built it all up which wont be cheap, mapping etc etc

I'l pm you price

11th June 2007, 20:20

Or an the reason i need to sell is i getting new car hopefully next weekend so needs to go. Plus this is looking to be the best options to get abit if my money back

11th June 2007, 21:25

Thanks for all the info mate. But I won't mess you about, I can tell you straight up I don't have that sort of cash flow at the momemt.

11th June 2007, 22:26

No prob mate

12th June 2007, 10:16

if your going to sell the 708's then give me first refusal please toad!

12th June 2007, 11:11

Just read through this, good thread!

Any info or advice you might want dont hesitate to drop me a PM

12th June 2007, 12:52

I think I'll need to get saving... I can't buy Craig's engine as I would need to save up a whole lotta cash...

I think when I eventually get this done, I will be changing the cams, as it seems a little pointless going to all that trouble for a little gain. Pay an extra grand roughly, and I've got a much bigger gain. I don't know whether I should go for the forged pistons or not. I would have to get other stuff would I not? Like rings and the like. Good thing though, is that would nice and healthy for the engine. The prices just go up and up though...

12th June 2007, 12:53

shame you cant afford craigs engine, nice peice of kit and very striaght forwad to fit, swap them over, could have given you a hand if need be

12th June 2007, 12:54

:Cough: turbo :cough: i am no expert and will be correcdted if i am wrong but you could proberly see similer gains for the same cost on low boost???

12th June 2007, 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENSAX3

:Cough: turbo :cough: i am no expert and will be correcdted if i am wrong but you could proberly see similer gains for the same cost on low boost???

but doesnt perform as well on track due to lag, and also doesnt sound anywhere near as good.

12th June 2007, 14:06

There's nothing like N/A power baby!

12th June 2007, 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

There's nothing like N/A power baby!

So true

11th February 2009, 01:59

ever considered a supercharger ?
have a chat with gmc see what they say for the kinda money your looking at spending !

just an option

11th February 2009, 03:08

dredge?

Im sure he has - but you cant beat the sound of TB's

11th February 2009, 06:43

Lol, this thread is ancient!! June 2007!!

11th February 2009, 08:17

Wowzers! Old one this eh? I still haven't sorted it! Like my school reports: Toad must try harder.

11th February 2009, 09:10

I was reading this thinking "wtf? all that hassle on the ECU and I have one which just plugs in!"

...then I saw it was a dredge!

I think I'll go back to sleep for a bit!

Andy
PS Got the 3-plug ECU working on the donkey ECU yesterday!

11th February 2009, 11:01

Good news Andy.

11th February 2009, 18:11

lol wtf thats the most random dredge ive seen for a while

11th February 2009, 20:40

toad and his bodies. doesnt time fly lol