Tip to choose your exhaust manifold

1. stevcatristicas Infrequent Poster Joined: Jun 2007 Leiria/Portugal Posts: 127 Citroën Saxo 1.1i SX MK1 1999 Citr

   #1 7th June 2007, 23:30

   Differences in exhaust manifolds depending on rpm: With this graphic you can choose the type of manifold configuration depending on your driving style.
   
   [more tips to come]
2. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

   #2 7th June 2007, 23:34

   Hehe, looking at that graph, the 4-1 wouldn't be much use to many people as it appears to peak at just over 9000 RPM ! !
3. stevcatristicas Infrequent Poster Joined: Jun 2007 Leiria/Portugal Posts: 127 Citroën Saxo 1.1i SX MK1 1999 Citr

   #3 7th June 2007, 23:48

   Yes, that's right. For a normal engine it’s not the best choice to do.
4. Barry123 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2005 Aycliffe Posts: 32205 Saxo VTS

   #4 7th June 2007, 23:49

   stevcatristicas, you're quickly becoming one of my favourite members on here.
   
   Good work keep it up
   
   Ad
5. Ryanp Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut

   #5 7th June 2007, 23:54

   look at the drop between 4 and 6k!
   
   exactly why im more of a fan of a 4-2-1 over a 4-1.
6. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

   #6 7th June 2007, 23:56

   Ryan, I remember in a thread you gave a link to some other site where the chap had graphs of RRs with different manifolds. The GMC RR was piss poor compared to the 4-2-1, remember?
7. stevcatristicas Infrequent Poster Joined: Jun 2007 Leiria/Portugal Posts: 127 Citroën Saxo 1.1i SX MK1 1999 Citr

   #7 7th June 2007, 23:59

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by adsayer stevcatristicas, you're quickly becoming one of my favourite members on here. Good work keep it up Ad

   Thanks… I’ll try to not disappoint you…
8. Ryanp Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut

   #8 8th June 2007, 00:17

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by Toad Ryan, I remember in a thread you gave a link to some other site where the chap had graphs of RRs with different manifolds. The GMC RR was piss poor compared to the 4-2-1, remember?

   DaveP and his graphs showing the 4-1/4-2-1 and 708s/715s
9. turbo_dave Infrequent Poster Joined: Jan 2007 Down south Posts: 105 E36 M3 3.0 & 2.1 Mondeo w/Eaton M62

   #9 8th June 2007, 00:26

   There's nothing there going into runner lengths though? You could have a 4-1 that out performs a phased 4-2-1 on an 8v motor if you get the runner lengths wrong...
10. S34MER East Midlands Joined: Jun 2006 Derby Posts: 8305 Skoda Fabia VRS

    #10 8th June 2007, 07:45

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by adsayer stevcatristicas, you're quickly becoming one of my favourite members on here. Good work keep it up Ad

    have to agree with that! your posts are all useful, and i think this thread will come in handy for a while to come!
11. Steve Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Mar 2005 Newcastle Upon Tyne Posts: 19910 CW Honda Integra DC5

    #11 8th June 2007, 08:41

    is that graph on a saxo? a 16v or 8v mate?
12. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #12 8th June 2007, 09:25

    lengths of the primary and secondary pipes all make a difference as do the bore size, and also the engine spec so you really can't use that graph as gospel. If you have a peaky track engine theres really no point in a 4-2-1 for example.
13. FILVTR Regular Poster Joined: Oct 2006 Manchester Posts: 440 VTR '52.

    #13 8th June 2007, 13:02

    I have a Carworx 4-1 manifold and it kicks the arse from the 4-2-1 I had previously. Both were heat-wrapped but the difference is astounding. I'm staying put with a 4-1 guys purely for the top end!
14. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

    #14 8th June 2007, 13:08

    What was / is the difference then?
15. FILVTR Regular Poster Joined: Oct 2006 Manchester Posts: 440 VTR '52.

    #15 8th June 2007, 14:54

    Well, there was an instant improvement in the top end (keeps accelerating beyond 80mph where the 4-2-1 levelled off more). Overall, hitting the throttle has more of an effect in pretty much the entire rev range. Don't know about the measurements of the pipes, but the 4-2-1 had smaller pipes. I love this 4-1, but was custom made.
    
    Everyone knows that 4-2-1 gives lower-end power, while the 4-1 gives higher end power, but I think the debate of which is better, varies on other factors like stainless/mild, heatwrapped or not, gearbox used, 8v/16v, other cars (non-saxo) differences - think it varies, but the graph (if not saxo-specific) may be true for Manifolds in general - but it will vary car to car.
16. Toad Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can

    #16 8th June 2007, 15:09

    Oh yeah, definately.
    
    I think you had a duff 4-2-1 though to see that much of an improvement. Hehe.
17. Mysticp Scotland Joined: Jul 2005 Edinburgh Posts: 9556 Saxo 1.6i 16v VTS, 2 Classic Minis

    #17 8th June 2007, 15:24

    Whats 360 degree 4-2-1, based on that graph thats the one i'd like
18. Barry123 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2005 Aycliffe Posts: 32205 Saxo VTS

    #18 8th June 2007, 15:29

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mystic Whats 360 degree 4-2-1, based on that graph thats the one i'd like

    Its to do with optimising the flow due to the combustion pattern of the cylinders... i think it 1-4-2-3 the pattern
    
    something to do with gas flows because of that but dont really know if im honest.
19. Mysticp Scotland Joined: Jul 2005 Edinburgh Posts: 9556 Saxo 1.6i 16v VTS, 2 Classic Minis

    #19 8th June 2007, 16:19

    Is that the style of 4-2-1 produced for the saxo or do i have the lesser one in the graph?
20. saunders Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: May 2006 Kent Posts: 3669 Fiat Seicento, MK2 Furio 2000 X, Pug 206

    #20 8th June 2007, 16:22

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mystic Is that the style of 4-2-1 produced for the saxo or do i have the lesser one in the graph?

    Most manifolds iv seen for the saxo branch over so I would guess yours would be the 360 one mate
21. Mysticp Scotland Joined: Jul 2005 Edinburgh Posts: 9556 Saxo 1.6i 16v VTS, 2 Classic Minis

    #21 8th June 2007, 16:27

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by saunders Most manifolds iv seen for the saxo branch over so I would guess yours would be the 360 one mate

    Fudge me for some reason i didnt eventhink about what my manifold looked like when i was looking at the pics above lol
    
    Yeh i reckon your right, id does branch over.
    
    Thats good news then
22. Barry123 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2005 Aycliffe Posts: 32205 Saxo VTS

    #22 8th June 2007, 16:31

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mystic Is that the style of 4-2-1 produced for the saxo or do i have the lesser one in the graph?

    even with my incredible powers its actually not possible for adsayer to look in your enginebay from this part of the internet...
23. saunders Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: May 2006 Kent Posts: 3669 Fiat Seicento, MK2 Furio 2000 X, Pug 206

    #23 8th June 2007, 16:51

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mystic Fudge me for some reason i didnt eventhink about what my manifold looked like when i was looking at the pics above lol Yeh i reckon your right, id does branch over. Thats good news then

    You know it makes sense
    
    

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by adsayer even with my incredible powers its actually not possible for adsayer to look in your enginebay from this part of the internet...

    he he lol. Made me laugh
24. Mysticp Scotland Joined: Jul 2005 Edinburgh Posts: 9556 Saxo 1.6i 16v VTS, 2 Classic Minis

    #24 8th June 2007, 16:55

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by adsayer even with my incredible powers its actually not possible for adsayer to look in your enginebay from this part of the internet...

    not that incredible then are they. Not even incredible enough to know my manifold isnt in my enginebay!
    
    AdSayer is a false god!
25. Barry123 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2005 Aycliffe Posts: 32205 Saxo VTS

    #25 8th June 2007, 16:59

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mystic not that incredible then are they. Not even incredible enough to know my manifold isnt in my enginebay! AdSayer is a false god!

    where is the device that connects the outlet of the engine to the exhaust live?
    
    usually the engine resides in the engine bay of a car no?
26. Mysticp Scotland Joined: Jul 2005 Edinburgh Posts: 9556 Saxo 1.6i 16v VTS, 2 Classic Minis

    #26 8th June 2007, 17:02

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by adsayer where is the device that connects the outlet of the engine to the exhaust live? usually the engine resides in the engine bay of a car no?

    True the engine lives in said bay, the manifold is in the boot though, next to a roll of heatwrap & some jubilee clips
27. Barry123 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2005 Aycliffe Posts: 32205 Saxo VTS

    #27 8th June 2007, 17:04

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mystic True the engine lives in said bay, the manifold is in the boot though, next to a roll of heatwrap & some jubilee clips

    
    
    powers really are weak
28. Mysticp Scotland Joined: Jul 2005 Edinburgh Posts: 9556 Saxo 1.6i 16v VTS, 2 Classic Minis

    #28 8th June 2007, 17:08

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by adsayer powers really are weak

    I think a good binge is in order to re fuel them.
    
    
    
    
    
    Ah whats that?
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Oh...
    
    
    
    
    
    
    ....
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    It looks like....
    
    
    
    
    
    
    The weekend. Excellent
29. Borat Regular Poster Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 269

    #29 8th June 2007, 17:39

    4-1 pipes are excellent on throttle bodied engines as they provide a bit less back pressure than the 4-2-1 and allow gases to escape quicker. Its just a case of getting the length and bore size right as previously said. Downside is that they provide less torque and you loose the sensation of being forced into your seat!
    
    On an 8v (vtr) engine I'd have a 4-1 and a 4-2-1 on a 16v engine (vts)
    Its wise to get a remap or chip with manifolds as I have learned in the past.
30. stevcatristicas Infrequent Poster Joined: Jun 2007 Leiria/Portugal Posts: 127 Citroën Saxo 1.1i SX MK1 1999 Citr

    #30 9th June 2007, 23:04

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Steve_VTR is that graph on a saxo? a 16v or 8v mate?

    This graph shows the effective pressure in the exhausts manifolds. It doesn’t depend if it’s a 16v or 8v.
    
    

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KamRacing lengths of the primary and secondary pipes all make a difference as do the bore size, and also the engine spec so you really can't use that graph as gospel. If you have a peaky track engine theres really no point in a 4-2-1 for example.

    Of course this in not a roll. There is no software that can exactly modulate an exhaust system. This graph it only serves to give the idea what is the difference between the tree types of manifolds that exists with the same volume.
    
    

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mystic Whats 360 degree 4-2-1, based on that graph thats the one i'd like

    The 360 degree means that there is a difference of 360 degrees in the exhaust time. If you don’t know, a four stroke engine completes a cycle after 2 turns of the crack shaft (720 degrees). Now, way this works so well? First of all lets consider a normal saxo ignition order (is the same of the exhaust order) 1-4-2-3 (I don’t know if is this one) the exhaust inlet of the 1 is connected to the 3 and the 2 to the 4. When the cylinder 1 makes exhaust it will create a depression on 3 that will suck the exhaust fume form the 3rd cylinder emptying it quickly.
31. Ryanp Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut

    #31 9th June 2007, 23:19

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Borat Its wise to get a remap or chip with manifolds as I have learned in the past.

    chips are for brighton sea front not saxo engines.
    
    no point on a £400 remap for a manifold mate
32. Ryanp Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut

    #32 9th June 2007, 23:22

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Borat 4-1 pipes are excellent on throttle bodied engines as they provide a bit less back pressure than the 4-2-1 and allow gases to escape quicker.

    is that why the pugsport manifold is a 4-2-1 configuration, the one they use on the throttle bodied engines LOL!
    
    it has naff all to do with back pressure because of the configuration, its to do with the bore sizes, the lengths of the primary pipes and the size of the collector box etc..
33. Joesnow Frequent Poster Joined: May 2006 Posts: 691 Mk 1 VTS poseidon blue

    #33 10th June 2007, 23:56

    I’m impressed with that graph! Where did you find it? Do you have any more but with variations in the lengths and/or bores of the primary and secondary pipes for each design?
34. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #34 11th June 2007, 10:05

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85 is that why the pugsport manifold is a 4-2-1 configuration, the one they use on the throttle bodied engines LOL! it has naff all to do with back pressure because of the configuration, its to do with the bore sizes, the lengths of the primary pipes and the size of the collector box etc..

    True. Though the engine that exhaust is designed for may have 208bhp but the power spread is designed to be as low down the rev range as they can as the car is used in rallying. A track car could do with a different manifold due to the cam profile and power band. To get the best power the manifold needs to be matched to the engine rather than just bolt on and hope, though you do tend to see gains over standard due to restrictive designs from the manufacturer as they worry about emissions and noise pollution.
35. stevcatristicas Infrequent Poster Joined: Jun 2007 Leiria/Portugal Posts: 127 Citroën Saxo 1.1i SX MK1 1999 Citr

    #35 11th June 2007, 22:04

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Joesnow I’m impressed with that graph! Where did you find it? Do you have any more but with variations in the lengths and/or bores of the primary and secondary pipes for each design?

    I get it form a class notes in PowerPoint. The teacher only has this graph related with the exhaust configuration.