throttle bodies.

  1. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2007 Weston-S-Mare Posts: 3713 Racing Bronze Mazda MX-5
    #1
    right, i was thinking of changing car but then decided not to as i love the vts too much, and have been toying with maybe getting throttle bodies after a set of cams.

    what is needed for a set up?

    bodies
    inlet mani
    rubber/silocone jioners
    standalone (could you just re-map or is it not worth it?)
    some form of linkage

    anything else?

    this wont be a go and buy, i want to just source the bits and give it a go, so will try and do as cheap as possible.

    any help would be great.
  2. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2005 East Yorkshire United Kingdom (England) Posts: 6169 VTR
    #2
    probs work out just as expensive as an off the shelf kit but you will be left with less power
  3. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2007 Weston-S-Mare Posts: 3713 Racing Bronze Mazda MX-5
    #3
    well i know bike bodied dont cost much, and i can get linkage and manifold done for nothing, so really just the cost of the standalone or re-map.
  4. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2005 evesham, worcs United Kingdom (England) Posts: 3813 197 cup
    #4
    most people go for hi comp pistons due to the high revviness of the engine
  5. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2007 Weston-S-Mare Posts: 3713 Racing Bronze Mazda MX-5
    #5
    but can i do it without the high comp pistons?

    and whats better standalona or just a remap?
  6. Saxperience Addict Joined: May 2006 Costa del Wales Posts: 12393 Spam Wagon
    #6
    standalone would be much better
  7. Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)
    #7
    A well designed inlet will be massively superior to a homemade system. I've only last week been speaking to a company that supplies throttlebody kits and their system flows better than even the Jenvey off the shelf inlet manifold for throttlebodies. For maximum power buy something thats been properly developed. For cheap throttlebodies make your own.
  8. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Nov 2006 Durham Posts: 16000 Clio Trophy 025/500
    #8
    You need a standalone ecu for throttle bodies
  9. Saxperience Addict Joined: May 2006 Costa del Wales Posts: 12393 Spam Wagon
    #9
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by leeroybrown View Post
    You need a standalone ecu for throttle bodies
    you sure do
  10. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Nov 2006 Durham Posts: 16000 Clio Trophy 025/500
    #10
    Bogg Brothers with do you a inlet manifold for bike throttle bodies for about £250 and its good work

    You can pick GSXR 600 or R6 throttle bodies of ebay for extra nothing these days
  11. Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)
    #11
    setting up the bike boddies can me difficult. Many have fallen at that last stage
  12. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Nov 2006 Durham Posts: 16000 Clio Trophy 025/500
    #12
    Its all about setting up the butterflys
  13. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2007 Weston-S-Mare Posts: 3713 Racing Bronze Mazda MX-5
    #13
    for an inlet manifold, is straight better? i'm guessing yes as it is less restrictive, and do they need to be a certain length?
  14. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #14
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KamRacing View Post
    A well designed inlet will be massively superior to a homemade system. I've only last week been speaking to a company that supplies throttlebody kits and their system flows better than even the Jenvey off the shelf inlet manifold for throttlebodies. For maximum power buy something thats been properly developed. For cheap throttlebodies make your own.
    So do you want some business?

    If you can quote me a better price than ones I've had already, I would use your business kam...
  15. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2007 Weston-S-Mare Posts: 3713 Racing Bronze Mazda MX-5
    #15
    was looking at gsxr 600 or 1000 or R1 or R6 bodies, with something like an emerald k3 standalone.
  16. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Nov 2006 Durham Posts: 16000 Clio Trophy 025/500
    #16
    Could be wrong but the longer the inlet and bigger the bodies the more torque you will make
  17. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Nov 2006 Durham Posts: 16000 Clio Trophy 025/500
    #17
    My mate runs R6 bodies with a emerald ECU
  18. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2007 Weston-S-Mare Posts: 3713 Racing Bronze Mazda MX-5
    #18
    what about in the way of wiring is needed?

    and also, fueling, do i mount the standard fuel rail and injectors to the tb inlet manifold?
  19. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2007 Weston-S-Mare Posts: 3713 Racing Bronze Mazda MX-5
    #19
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by leeroybrown View Post
    My mate runs R6 bodies with a emerald ECU
    whats that like?

    but its quick and sounds mint to i bet?
  20. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Nov 2006 Durham Posts: 16000 Clio Trophy 025/500
    #20
    Quick

    Didnt sound like saxo

    Immense sound thats for sure
  21. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2007 Weston-S-Mare Posts: 3713 Racing Bronze Mazda MX-5
    #21
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by leeroybrown View Post
    Quick

    Didnt sound like saxo

    Immense sound thats for sure
    awesome.

    how is his fueling done?

    can you just use the standard rail and injectors?
  22. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Nov 2006 Durham Posts: 16000 Clio Trophy 025/500
    #22


    He used the Bike injectors
  23. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2007 Weston-S-Mare Posts: 3713 Racing Bronze Mazda MX-5
    #23
    oh right i see, i spose they are already mounted into the tb's and have some form of fuel rail?

    (cant see the pic, work has most pics disabled)
  24. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Nov 2006 Durham Posts: 16000 Clio Trophy 025/500
    #24
    Yeah the bike fuel rail is built into the throttle bodies them selfs

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SUZUKI-GSXR600...QQcmdZViewItem
  25. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2007 Weston-S-Mare Posts: 3713 Racing Bronze Mazda MX-5
    #25
    ah right i see, so with that i would just have to wire everything up and connect to the right bits.
  26. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Nov 2006 Durham Posts: 16000 Clio Trophy 025/500
    #26
    yeah probs worth getting a FPR as well
  27. Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)
    #27
    would be good to cut open the scuttle panel and get a decent cold air feed
  28. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Nov 2006 Durham Posts: 16000 Clio Trophy 025/500
    #28
    Thats the probs with the pannel is that it has the chasis number on

    And i am sure for the MOT it has to be there in that place

    Could be wrong
  29. Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)
    #29
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Toad View Post
    So do you want some business?

    If you can quote me a better price than ones I've had already, I would use your business kam...
    soon I hope. We should be offering some deals for premium members shortly. Everything is ready bar a correct pricelist that hopefully is in the post to us..

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by leeroybrown View Post
    Could be wrong but the longer the inlet and bigger the bodies the more torque you will make
    too big and you will loose a lot of torque...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by leeroybrown View Post
    My mate runs R6 bodies with a emerald ECU
    any rolling road graphs to estimate what he gained? before and after results?
  30. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Nov 2006 Durham Posts: 16000 Clio Trophy 025/500
    #30
    Was about 150ish before the bodies, then made 160 something with the bodies.

    He has the graphs at home.
  31. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Nov 2006 Durham Posts: 16000 Clio Trophy 025/500
    #31
    1.6 16v with Yamaha R6 Throttlebodies
    Ported Head with 2mm larger exhaust valves
    Piper 285 cams
    Emerald m3d Ecu
    Pipercross px500 air filter
    Fse fuel pressure regulator
    BTB 4-1 mild steel manifold
    Ashley full 2 1/4" exhaust system

    Car recently made 160.2bhp(fly) at Emerald
  32. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #32
    I'd be unhappy with those results.
  33. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Nov 2006 Durham Posts: 16000 Clio Trophy 025/500
    #33
    Should have bought the 42mm bodies tbh
  34. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2005 evesham, worcs United Kingdom (England) Posts: 3813 197 cup
    #34
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by leeroybrown View Post
    1.6 16v with Yamaha R6 Throttlebodies
    Ported Head with 2mm larger exhaust valves
    Piper 285 cams
    Emerald m3d Ecu
    Pipercross px500 air filter
    Fse fuel pressure regulator
    BTB 4-1 mild steel manifold
    Ashley full 2 1/4" exhaust system

    Car recently made 160.2bhp(fly) at Emerald
    not very good power considering most vts's with cams and a remap make around 160bhp
  35. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Nov 2006 Durham Posts: 16000 Clio Trophy 025/500
    #35
    You dont need to tell me that
  36. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #36
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samcook View Post
    most people go for hi comp pistons due to the high revviness of the engine
    You need alot more than pistons to make the vts engine rev high,

    Dont forget things like modding the fuel rail / fuel lines, accel cable, tps then theres the filtration issues as already mentioned, enclosed box being the best option.

    Re-map of standalone is definitely needed
  37. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Nov 2006 Durham Posts: 16000 Clio Trophy 025/500
    #37
    i would go for direct to head bodies my self or what JPSAXO has got
  38. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #38
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by leeroybrown View Post
    or what JPSAXO has got
    No longer made unless you get 5-10 orders together - you will have to speak to John @ GMC
  39. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Nov 2006 Durham Posts: 16000 Clio Trophy 025/500
    #39
    I watch you thread on SSC, well impressed, really really good set up you have
  40. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #40
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samcook View Post
    not very good power considering most vts's with cams and a remap make around 160bhp
    its not just bhp though, the TBs allow you to run a more wild cam, his is on a fairly mild cam when you really look at it.

    Tbs also generally have alot better throttle response, which improves the drivability of the car not just your penis length down the pub
  41. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #41
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jpsaxo View Post
    No longer made unless you get 5-10 orders together - you will have to speak to John @ GMC
    or i could be tempted into selling my set up lol
  42. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #42
    Your selling your "special" engine Ry?
  43. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #43
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85 View Post
    its not just bhp though, the TBs allow you to run a more wild cam, his is on a fairly mild cam when you really look at it.

    Tbs also generally have alot better throttle response, which improves the drivability of the car not just your penis length down the pub
    As Ryan said really, TB's are more about drieability, torque spread, throttle response - gaining power is not what they are about - especially on mild cams like 708s, 285s, pt51 etc
  44. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Nov 2006 Durham Posts: 16000 Clio Trophy 025/500
    #44
    Agreed
  45. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #45
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jpsaxo View Post
    Your selling your "special" engine Ry?
    i may be doing so, not sure. got uni coming up, cant get the shell sorted and so may get rid.
  46. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #46
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jpsaxo View Post
    As Ryan said really, TB's are more about drieability, torque spread, throttle response - gaining power is not what they are about - especially on mild cams like 708s, 285s, pt51 etc
    but that doesnt give you a 40" cock down the pub from having 400bhp.
  47. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #47
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85 View Post
    i may be doing so, not sure. got uni coming up, cant get the shell sorted and so may get rid.
    Whats wrong with the shell? PM me if you wish
  48. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #48
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jpsaxo View Post
    Whats wrong with the shell? PM me if you wish
    got rust on inner wing, had to cut a large section out, no fucker can weld it at my house.

    rear beam area is a bit rusty to.

    may just sell engine,cage, wheels, brakes etc....
  49. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #49
    Why not stick it all into your vtr?

    Seems like you've come along way to then sell up all of a suddern.
  50. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #50
    vtr is my road car, and at uni i dont want a TBd caged up monster.

    i do alot of miles in it to physios etc.. and enjoy it now being standard lol
  51. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2005 evesham, worcs United Kingdom (England) Posts: 3813 197 cup
    #51
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jpsaxo View Post
    You need alot more than pistons to make the vts engine rev high,

    Dont forget things like modding the fuel rail / fuel lines, accel cable, tps then theres the filtration issues as already mentioned, enclosed box being the best option.

    Re-map of standalone is definitely needed
    it was just an example
  52. Regular Poster Joined: Mar 2007 chelmsford, essex Posts: 304 lupo turbo 330bhp
    #52
    ur gonna need a diff aswel. ive got an emerald ecu in my lupo
  53. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #53
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samcook View Post
    it was just an example
    Pocketed high compression pistons allow you to use a larger valved head, increase the CR, improve mid range torque and slightly more power - Nothing to do with allowing the engine to rev higher pal.
  54. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2005 evesham, worcs United Kingdom (England) Posts: 3813 197 cup
    #54
    look at mr i think im cool
  55. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #55
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85 View Post
    vtr is my road car, and at uni i dont want a TBd caged up monster.

    i do alot of miles in it to physios etc.. and enjoy it now being standard lol
    Lol, fair enough - you were quick enough at Llandow in the vtr anyway so i've heard

    Touche Sam - you got it wrong, admit it, simple.
  56. Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)
    #56
    to rev higher you need custom pistons but its more about what it is made of rather than its shape etc. Custom pistons, rods and cranks are needed if you want to rev a lot higher than standard.
  57. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #57
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by R66CE_O_vtr View Post
    ur gonna need a diff aswel
    One of the best things i got for my car, highly recommended
  58. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2005 evesham, worcs United Kingdom (England) Posts: 3813 197 cup
    #58
    ok so josh your telling me you dont need upgraded pistons for your vehicle to rev highier safely?
  59. Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)
    #59
    you do not need high compression pistons in a high revving engine as in your previous statement. You want high compression to gain more power combined with a higher RON fuel to stop pre-detonation.
  60. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #60
    As per my previous statement, no you dont Sam.
  61. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #61
    Sorry to be a bit if a dunce, but I need to know this please...

    As my cylinder head has been skimmed a fair amount, raising the compression ratio... If I do finally get the standalone ECU and TBs done, can I specifically ask the operator doing the mapping to advance the timing to its optimum, to take advantage of the (99 octane rating for example) fuel I'm using?
  62. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #62
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jpsaxo View Post
    Lol, fair enough - you were quick enough at Llandow in the vtr anyway so i've heard
  63. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2005 Aycliffe Posts: 32205 Saxo VTS
    #63
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Toad View Post
    Sorry to be a bit if a dunce, but I need to know this please...

    As my cylinder head has been skimmed a fair amount, raising the compression ratio... If I do finally get the standalone ECU and TBs done, can I specifically ask the operator doing the mapping to advance the timing to its optimum, to take advantage of the (99 octane rating for example) fuel I'm using?
    yeah but just make sure you've had about 3 tanks worth of 99RON gone through it beforehand and there's some in the tank come mapping time
  64. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #64
    Why do I need to have used 3 tanks?
  65. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2005 Aycliffe Posts: 32205 Saxo VTS
    #65
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Toad View Post
    Why do I need to have used 3 tanks?
    just incase you still have previous RON fuel in the system... it just dilutes it more.

    unless you go full on and get the tank and fuel system drained prior to mapping.
  66. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #66
    OK, thanks for that.
  67. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #67
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Toad View Post
    Sorry to be a bit if a dunce, but I need to know this please...

    As my cylinder head has been skimmed a fair amount, raising the compression ratio... If I do finally get the standalone ECU and TBs done, can I specifically ask the operator doing the mapping to advance the timing to its optimum, to take advantage of the (99 octane rating for example) fuel I'm using?
    If they are "half decent" @ mapping / setting up they will do this anyway,

    How much they can swing them when you've had alot taken off im not too sure!
  68. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #68
    OK, thanks JP.

    Will the knock sensor on the 106 / VTS cause issues? I thinking that it might not be "programed" to deal with higher octane rated fuels...
  69. Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)
    #69
    Its the ecu thats not programmed. The sensor just sends the signals, its up to the ecu to interpret everything correctly
  70. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #70
    Gottcha. I worded that badly. I was trying to say more along the lines of the sensor not having the capability, or broad enough range to deal with higher octane fuels. But, like you've said... The sensor will be more mundane than I'm thinking of.
  71. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #71
    If your referring to using bp ulimate or V-Power - Mine runs much better on these fuels
  72. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #72
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jpsaxo View Post
    If your referring to using bp ulimate or V-Power - Mine runs much better on these fuels
    josh do you map yours on std ron?

    i personally would have done so, for times when i didnt run the higher ron fuels to avoid it running a tad lean.
  73. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2007 Reading Posts: 8980 French tin can
    #73
    I use BP Ultimate at the moment, it seems to run with a little more response than Shell's VPower. Interstingly, VPower is 99RON and BP Ultimate is 97RON. My car was mapped by Wayne with Shell Optimax, which was 98RON. (Apparently)
  74. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #74
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85 View Post
    josh do you map yours on std ron?

    i personally would have done so, for times when i didnt run the higher ron fuels to avoid it running a tad lean.
    Mapping was done on standard cheap crap yes
  75. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #75
    I only run mine on bp ultimate or if possible v-power - but theres no shell within miles from me....
  76. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #76
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jpsaxo View Post
    Mapping was done on standard cheap crap yes
    glad to hear

    im still undecided on what im gonna do atm.

    think trax is gonna be 8v power, and llandow im prob pulling out as the thur/friday are my first lectures at uni.
  77. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Oct 2005 Sydney Posts: 8525 Mango Westcoast
    #77
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jpsaxo View Post
    Mapping was done on standard cheap crap yes
    Thats what John recommended