A little run on the rollers today...

  1. #1
    Yeah, I wanted to check how things were going fuelling wise, just for peace of mind really. If things were really up the spout, then I would look into getting the standalone ECU fairly sharpish.

    The good news was that the fuelling was pretty much spot on, so no concerns there. And some other good news was that I think the problem with the jerking has been finally figured out! ...About bloody time eh? It looks like I've got an engine mount issue, the one that sits at the back near the gearbox. After a quick test drive, the folks at the RR were fairly certain that's what is causing the jerking. Some Grp N mounts on the list then!

    Here's a pic of the graph I got from the session today. I only grabbed the 1st run unfortunately, so it wasn't quite as high as I'd hoped, mostly due to excessive heat soak, as the car had been on the rollers for about 20 minutes getting the fuelling checked.



    On this run, it was just shy of 147 bhp. It's running at around 150 really. It just goes to show how high some other RRs can be. With the likes of Wayne's and Jam Sport for example. The car made 153 bhp just with the 708s on Wayne's rollers, and after the cylinder head, it made 164 bhp on Jam Sport's rollers! And it's actually running more power since then! I'm happy, as the car is running better now that it ever has... Just in case some people don't know, the mods are:

    Catcam 708 camshafts
    Gas flowed, big valve head (stage 4 from Hiflowheads)
    ECU re-map from Wayne (Chipwizards)
    Supersprint 421 manifold
    Sorpion exhaust system (no CAT)
    Ecosse induction kit with Green filter

    Now, the main reason why I've posted in the 'performance' section and not in my progress thread, is because I've got some stuff to discuss. As many of you know, I've been considering KMS's TB package for a while now, so I posed the question to the chaps at the RR place I was at today. One of the chaps there races AXs now I think, but he used to race Peugeots and has a lot of knowledge on the subject for our type of cars. Now, I know I'm going to get totally FLAMED for this comment! ...But here goes! He told me, likewise to what Wayne told me and also all the chaps at TMS... Is that going with a TB setup is a waste of money. His point being that it's simply not worth the money for the little to possibly even NO gain. He went back to what I've commented on in the past, and that's the inlet track length, and also the poor positioning of the bodies. When I asked about the fact that the bodies would allow the use of the higher lift / duration cam shafts, he said that wasn't the case either. As long as you have the management to deal with it, the standard inlet is fine. Head scratching time eh? He went on to say that the new Citroen C2R2 cup cars for example, run on the standard inlet, and they reach around 180 BHP... Well, I know this is going to make for some comments from some people.
  2. #2
    Oh yeah, forgot to add. This print out shows the BHP and ft/lb were I was hoping it should be. Previous RRs have shown it all to be in the usual RPM areas for a standard 106s. The max BHP in this run was just under 7200 RPM, and the max ft/lb was around 5500 RPM.
  3. #3
    toad you need to have a drive in joshs car or similar to make your mind up. speak to bic and the likes. it is alot of money to spend so just make sure its right for you
  4. #4
    True, I'd like to have a go... If I spend all that money and don't see any gains, it would kill me.
  5. #5
    not sure where you from but josh lives near me and itsaslowworld has cumbs with bodies
  6. #6
    Ryan PMd me a while back, saying something about not living too far from me. I live in Marlow in Bucks. What's cumbs?
  7. #7
    cumbria? hes a kent boy
  8. #8
    Mate, what was the jerking problem you had with your car? It sounds very similar to the problem that I have ... can you describe the symptoms of your problem for me
  9. #9
    On light throttle the car would jump back and forth. It was often at low RPM.
  10. #10
    Mate i will convince you about tb's!! Car should be done in 2 weeks
  11. #11
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Toad View Post
    On light throttle the car would jump back and forth. It was often at low RPM.
    my 206 does this and ive noticed a little power decrease could this be from the mount?
  12. #12
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vtr130 View Post
    Mate i will convince you about tb's!! Car should be done in 2 weeks
    Cool man! I hope you're gonna give me a ride!
  13. #13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stiffler69 View Post
    my 206 does this and ive noticed a little power decrease could this be from the mount?
    I couldn't say for certain chap. Pop the bonnet, and see how well the mounts are working by give the lump a good old shake down.
  14. #14
    Just rang up GMC to ask about some Gpr N engine mounts, and no joke, I spent well over an hour talking to them about throttle bodies and what have you... I need some money...
  15. #15
    Nice one on the power output - how much is a session on the road?
    Regs problem you mentioned? You mean like jumping fwd as if you'd put your foot down? Just coasting in 1st out of a car park thought I had a ghost blippin a silent throttle the other day - really freaked me out. Been sitting 10/15ft behind cars in queues etc incase it happens again!...
  16. #16
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Toad View Post
    Just rang up GMC to ask about some Gpr N engine mounts, and no joke, I spent well over an hour talking to them about throttle bodies and what have you... I need some money...
    john is a fountain of knowlege, even if at times i dont like his sales pitches, his level of workmanship on gmc cars is the best ive seen on most PSA cars.

    groupN mounts are a fair bit on yours.

    you gonna order em from france?
  17. #17
    I was going to get them from GMC, until I got distracted with talk on what to do with the car. He was asking for £239 after VAT and postage. I will shop around, seems pricey.

    He was trying to convince me to go turbo, hehe. I've learnt quite a lot about the KMS ECU which is cool. I never had any idea quite how it worked... If I wanted to get my car up and running with the KMS ECU, including the wideband display, they offered it to me at around £1300. Scary price eh? I'm still thinking throttle bodies
  18. #18
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Toad View Post
    I was going to get them from GMC, until I got distracted with talk on what to do with the car. He was asking for £239 after VAT and postage. I will shop around, seems pricey.

    He was trying to convince me to go turbo, hehe. I've learnt quite a lot about the KMS ECU which is cool. I never had any idea quite how it worked... If I wanted to get my car up and running with the KMS ECU, including the wideband display, they offered it to me at around £1300. Scary price eh? I'm still thinking throttle bodies
    turbo. john did build a scary fast silver mk1 vts turbo irc, totally shit bodywork but fucking fast!

    theyre reputation isnt really on turbos though, more the supercharged engines so surprised that he says go tubby.

    As said john has alot of knowlege and imo is the best TU builder of a car that will work in the uk.

    price for mounts is about the same as most UK pugsport retailers, john has a slight mark up because he holds stock of them so can usually deliver next day.

    other places order them from france (which you can do if you want to save a few ££)
  19. #19
    Can by all means have a drive of mine if you get yourself to a mett or something, plenty of my mates have Off the public roads obviously

    Lol,

    Boddies come into there own when running wild cams IMO, when the valve over lap is higher etc etc

    Also theres the sound! Waynes rollers do seem fairly generous tbh, Im glad you now have a realistic figure
  20. #20
    Yeah, I've learn that now from GMC. It looks like the chaps at the RR weren't aware about how TBs aid the use of the high lift / duration cam shafts.
  21. #21
    The C2cup cars have a completely different design induction to the saxo so its not a good reference. I would bet that they are fettled still enen though they are a single throttlebody

    People have made some really good gains with throttlebodies but they have had to do things like cut the bulkhead so the optimum induction length can be used..
  22. #22
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Toad View Post
    Yeah, I've learn that now from GMC. It looks like the chaps at the RR weren't aware about how TBs aid the use of the high lift / duration cam shafts.
    I would say so tbh.

    as said c2r2, the c2 inlet manifold is meant to be better design than the saxo one, also even if the c2r2 used a single tb, it would be a largerbore i would expect and the std inlet probably runs larger bore primary pipes to the head.
  23. #23
    So I'm guessing the name of the game is to try and get the speed of the air intake as high as possible? I'm trying to come up with an idea as to why the length of the induction is so important when it comes to where the power is produced in the RPM range.
  24. #24
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Toad View Post
    So I'm guessing the name of the game is to try and get the speed of the air intake as high as possible? I'm trying to come up with an idea as to why the length of the induction is so important when it comes to where the power is produced in the RPM range.
    loner inlet tracts change the characteristics of the engine, a really short inlet tract can loose mid/low range torque.

    So you want fast gas velocitiy into the cylinder and a decent length inlet set up.

    i need to read into the length of induction more
  25. #25
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85 View Post
    I would say so tbh.

    as said c2r2, the c2 inlet manifold is meant to be better design than the saxo one, also even if the c2r2 used a single tb, it would be a largerbore i would expect and the std inlet probably runs larger bore primary pipes to the head.
    The C2R2 inlet manifold comes in two parts. Not too expensive either relatively speaking



    http://www.kam-racing.com/product_in...roducts_id/752
  26. #26
    i want to go down the throttle bodie route as soon as i get a vts engine in. nice to learn some useful stuff from you chaps

    toad iv seen u in marlow on the run petrol station, very nice looking car m8. iv got the decked gold saxo. you should join up on cruisebucks.co.uk there are quite a few saxos in the area
  27. #27
    Oh right. Small world eh?
  28. #28
    im looking down the tb route but im in the same boat as you toad is it really worth spending that much money?
    and body got bhp stats of a vts with tbs cams ect ??
  29. #29
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lil-daz-vts View Post
    im looking down the tb route but im in the same boat as you toad is it really worth spending that much money?
    and body got bhp stats of a vts with tbs cams ect ??
    as said many times.
    TBs allow you to run more wild cams.

    a tbd engine can make between 140-210 bhp

    depending on budget etc........
  30. #30
    I have some questions if anybody would like to try and answer them it would be appreciated. Can you buy the C2R2 inlet and head and use them directly with a GTi/VTS block? Does the C2R2 use really wild cams which would struggle to pass an MOT? also would this setup be hard to drive on the road as a daily driver? Im interested as an alternative route to TB's..