Piper 285 (ultimate road) 8v Cam

24th August 2007, 11:09

This will be the cam i'm using in my engine build but i'm abit worried as to the valve clearence in relation to the top of the piston..

Has anyone put this cam in a VTR or 1.4? If so was there any clearence issue's?

Rep for helpful answers..Cheers, James

24th August 2007, 13:34

Best thing to do James, is to call Piper. Here's a link to their catalogue.

http://www.pipercams.co.uk/NewPiperW...CamFrames.html

You'll notice that they are not called 285 anymore. You have the likes of Fast Road, Unltimate Road etc, etc.

24th August 2007, 13:37

You will have to find out how much lift standard cam has and then how much the 285s have. And the gap on a standard cam at TDC.

Then you should really leave yourself a 1mm gap at TDC with the 285. Find all these out then go from there.

24th August 2007, 13:39

Thanks chaps..

Will set about finding out the std TDC etc..

24th August 2007, 13:53

Have you seen Piper's clain in that catalogue about the VTS???

They claim that the Ultimate Road cam shafts will give 180 bhp + when used with a flowed head, manifold, and throttle bodies. Feck me, they're being a tad optimistic ain't they? Those cam shafts are the same (virtually) in deg and lift as 708s, PH3s etc, etc...

24th August 2007, 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Have you seen Piper's clain in that catalogue about the VTS???

They claim that the Ultimate Road cam shafts will give 180 bhp + when used with a flowed head, manifold, and throttle bodies. Feck me, they're being a tad optimistic ain't they? Those cam shafts are the same (virtually) in deg and lift as 708s, PH3s etc, etc...

Yeah i noticed that...

Its acheivable i would imagine but the car would have to be setup spot on..

I will probs just buy the Ultimate road cam and see what happens..lol

I cant find the std cam info anywhere!!

24th August 2007, 13:56

Yer they are in the same spec as 708s and in theory it should make the power. Maybe bigger valves etc.

Me and a mate are fitting my BP285s and ill get it mapped soon so ill let people know ( when I say soon i mean like 4 months )

24th August 2007, 13:56

Let me know how it goes James

24th August 2007, 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colin

Yer they are in the same spec as 708s and in theory it should make the power. Maybe bigger valves etc.

Me and a mate are fitting my BP285s and ill get it mapped soon so ill let people know ( when I say soon i mean like 4 months )

Nah... I'm running a big valve head, supersprint mani, 708s etc, and it's running around 150 bhp. No way will TBs give me another 30 bhp!

24th August 2007, 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud

Let me know how it goes James

Will do..

You thinking of one for yours?

Just looke dback through my PM's and Graeme at Kam Racing recommended the piper 285 (ultimate road) cam..He knew my requirements etc and said with a remap on std injection should be ok, he didnt mention anything about pocketed pistons so i would assume it would be fine..

24th August 2007, 14:02

James, it's never safe to assume! But I reckon you'll be fine too! lol

If they are meant to be a carbon copy of the Ultimate Road 16v cam shafts, then they will work with standard pistons. Why don't you just give Piper a ring? They're not nasty... Hehe.

24th August 2007, 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by James_Bristol

Will do..

You thinking of one for yours?

Just looke dback through my PM's and Graeme at Kam Racing recommended the piper 285 (ultimate road) cam..He knew my requirements etc and said with a remap on std injection should be ok, he didnt mention anything about pocketed pistons so i would assume it would be fine..

Yea had a look a while back at them, still I really should sell the saxo instead of modding it.

24th August 2007, 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud

Yea had a look a while back at them, still I really should sell the saxo instead of modding it.

Don't sell it, its a minter. Who wants a standard car nowadays anyway.

P.S Wish I could afford cams

24th August 2007, 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

James, it's never safe to assume! But I reckon you'll be fine too! lol

If they are meant to be a carbon copy of the Ultimate Road 16v cam shafts, then they will work with standard pistons. Why don't you just give Piper a ring? They're not nasty... Hehe.

I would have thought i would be ok..I told Graeme that i was using std pistons etc so i dont think he would have recommended this cam tbh if it would be a problem..Will ring them closer to the time..after trax it will be anyway when i think about buying..

Cheers for the help..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud

Yea had a look a while back at them, still I really should sell the saxo instead of modding it.

Noooo..Dont be ghey..lol

24th August 2007, 16:24

youll be fine

24th August 2007, 16:33

they aren't that wild a spec to warrent pocketed pistons. You'll be fine.

24th August 2007, 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by bullit

youll be fine

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

they aren't that wild a spec to warrent pocketed pistons. You'll be fine.

Cheers fella's..

Nah i know they aren't too wild, just wanted to makesure..

25th August 2007, 00:04

you can polish a turd but...............

25th August 2007, 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85

you can polish a turd but...............

You love it..

25th August 2007, 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by James_Bristol

You love it..

what polishing turds??

25th August 2007, 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85

what polishing turds??

Yeah..its cool..

25th August 2007, 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by James_Bristol

Yeah..its cool..

is polishing a mk1 8v really cool to polish though

25th August 2007, 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85

is polishing a mk1 8v really cool to polish though

Yep..

Keeps me happy..

25th August 2007, 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by James_Bristol

Yep..

Keeps me happy..

i find gay porn id good.

25th August 2007, 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85

i find gay porn id good.

Oh right..Links??

25th August 2007, 00:31

www.8vownersaregayhomos.com
www.adsayerlovescock.co.uk
www.iusedtohaveabodykitnowithinkimatrackboy.org

25th August 2007, 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85

www.8vownersaregayhomos.com-I own one..
http://www.adsayerlovescock.co.uk-I ...d experience..
http://www.iusedtohaveabodykitnowith...ts for neons..

Glad you spoke the truth..

What happended to my quote..

25th August 2007, 00:37

your quote went wrong.

25th August 2007, 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85

your quote went wrong.

Dont rub salt into a very fresh wound..

25th August 2007, 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by James_Bristol

Dont rub salt into a very fresh wound..

dont wank to hard and get dry foreskin then!

25th August 2007, 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85

dont wank to hard and get dry foreskin then!

LOL

Wtf..

25th August 2007, 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85

dont wank to hard and get dry foreskin then!

speaking from experience are u?
james ur soo takin me for a spin when ya project is done, 1.4 ftw

25th August 2007, 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0t13

james ur soo takin me for a spin when ya project is done, 1.4 ftw

Ok..

25th August 2007, 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0t13

speaking from experience are u?
james ur soo takin me for a spin when ya project is done, 1.4 ftw

spin being the optimum word

25th August 2007, 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85

spin being the optimum word

LOL

Wait until you see what a std 1400 will do on track at trax..

25th August 2007, 13:30

Get overtaken? ...Frequently?

25th August 2007, 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Get overtaken? ...Frequently?

Wrong..

VTR's will go backwards..16v's will be on their toe's i assure you..

Its not all about the straights..

25th August 2007, 13:40

What makes you think you'll be racing against standard cars?

You really wouldn't be on my toes...

25th August 2007, 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

What makes you think you'll be racing against standard cars?

You really wouldn't be on my toes...

Most of the cars on here have only breathing mods..

I would hope i wasn't on your toes tbh..If i was your a poor driver with an even poorer car..

25th August 2007, 14:08

Or I was towing a mobile house...

25th August 2007, 14:18

LOL

Talking about 16v vs 8v..I was on my way to work yesterday and a completly std 106 gti came past me on the dual carriageway, it had lexus lights too..

Anyways, i thought i would get on his ass abit as i was interested to know how much quicker they actually are..So we stop at a roundabout and he floor's it, so do i..Obviously it pulled away from me but nowhere near as much as alot of 16v owners would like me to think..To 60 we are talking about 2 car lengths..Anyways he kept on going and at the end of this 3/4 mile ish dual carriageway he extended that to about 8-10 car length's..If there had been some corners thrown in i would have been all over that like a rash..I honestly dont think the 16v's are as quick in std form as they may feel..

So std 16v's are welcome to play at Trax..

Ryan also showed up loads of 16v boys on a trackday in his VTR..

25th August 2007, 14:38

theres over 3 second gap between us and the 16v's but a car is only as good as its driver, on a track a good driver can keep up in a slower car than someone whos rubbish in a fast car. put the same driver in both cars and the 16v's would destroy us..

25th August 2007, 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0t13

theres over 3 second gap between us and the 16v's but a car is only as good as its driver, on a track a good driver can keep up in a slower car than someone whos rubbish in a fast car. put the same driver in both cars and the 16v's would destroy us..

3 secs in a fully furnished std 1400..

Mines stripped, 4 branch, cat back, sports cat..

I'm not saying my car is as fast, lol..just saying throw some corners into the mix and some 16v's would get embarrassed.

My car is meant to handle and brake well at the moment..I'm working on the engine now..Cant wait until its done and pull up at some lights by a VTS or GTI..LOL

25th August 2007, 14:59

ye but even with ya mods it shud still destroy u with a good driver, tho when ya engines done itll be play time..

25th August 2007, 23:58

I have put that in my old vtr was great but even after mapping it was lumpy as fck and very loud

Edited video is broken

Heres what a 285 cam and map will do for you ^

26th August 2007, 00:07

See the vtr in the above video 285 piper cam, Adjustable pulley, bmc, decat, full exhaust, manifold, it made 120bhp on the rolling road and still got dusted by a vts, robbo's off here so i think a furio is going to get even more dusted by one, But i did later find out the cylinder head was not toqued down to the correct setting and was sitting loose however i do know how this would of effected the power on the engine

26th August 2007, 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by stiffler69

See the vtr in the above video 285 piper cam, Adjustable pulley, bmc, decat, full exhaust, manifold, it made 120bhp on the rolling road and still got dusted by a vts, robbo's off here so i think a furio is going to get even more dusted by one, But i did later find out the cylinder head was not toqued down to the correct setting and was sitting loose however i do know how this would of effected the power on the engine

Cheers for the vid, it wont let me watch it..lol, but my key is the fact that my car is stripped right out, will have a closer ratio gearbox and the lightest flywheel i can get away with along with P+P'd head and 4 branch etc..

26th August 2007, 01:01

on track its not all about bhp on the straights its how you carry speed around the corners.

In a 75bhp 205 Rallye with 'very' good suspension / chassis I overtook a not-so-well-set-up 170bhp 106 Gti around castle combe. Took me 10 laps to catch the car but I did it

26th August 2007, 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

on track its not all about bhp on the straights its how you carry speed around the corners.

In a 75bhp 205 Rallye with 'very' good suspension / chassis I overtook a not-so-well-set-up 170bhp 106 Gti around castle combe. Took me 10 laps to catch the car but I did it

My point exactly Kam..

I have quite a good chassis setup..better than most cars tbh and i dont think people quite understand the difference a few mph makes out of a corner..

I would be dead chuffed if my car was something like a VTS tbh but if its not oh well, it will still be one nippy 1400..

26th August 2007, 08:18

The best thing you can do James, is practice as much as possible on the track in your current car.

Have you ever heard of the phrase "Ten tenths" ? Most people will not be able to drive their car on the track at a rating of ten out of ten if that makes any sense at all? The reason why you would stand a good chance against a faster car is because you will have the ability (in your car) to drive it nearer to "ten tenths" than say someone in a quicker GTI... Gearing makes a massive difference too. For example, these cars that have really high BHP figures, will often mean that they have the capability of reaching much higher speeds, and as you know, on many tracks, how often are you going to be going at that top end speed...

However, it all boils down to driving ability, that's the biggest sway in this argument. Even on a tight track like Cadwell, you would be able to post quicker times in the GTI than the 1400. Take a track like Silverstone, and I think you would really struggle in the lesser power car.

You've got to remember, when you're saying that you will upset GTIs / VTSs around the track, you need to take into consideration that they might have just as good of a suspension setup as yourself, and they also might be of the same skills behind the wheel.

26th August 2007, 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

However, it all boils down to driving ability, that's the biggest sway in this argument..

thats what im worried about

26th August 2007, 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

The best thing you can do James, is practice as much as possible on the track in your current car.

Have you ever heard of the phrase "Ten tenths" ? Most people will not be able to drive their car on the track at a rating of ten out of ten if that makes any sense at all? The reason why you would stand a good chance against a faster car is because you will have the ability (in your car) to drive it nearer to "ten tenths" than say someone in a quicker GTI... Gearing makes a massive difference too. For example, these cars that have really high BHP figures, will often mean that they have the capability of reaching much higher speeds, and as you know, on many tracks, how often are you going to be going at that top end speed...

However, it all boils down to driving ability, that's the biggest sway in this argument. Even on a tight track like Cadwell, you would be able to post quicker times in the GTI than the 1400. Take a track like Silverstone, and I think you would really struggle in the lesser power car.

You've got to remember, when you're saying that you will upset GTIs / VTSs around the track, you need to take into consideration that they might have just as good of a suspension setup as yourself, and they also might be of the same skills behind the wheel.

I agree totally Toad...Thing is there are too many factors which are involved to accuratly predict what may or may not happen..The only way to find out is on the track..

Quote:

Originally Posted by bullit

thats what im worried about

26th August 2007, 10:15

how about you buy my 40mm gmc springs to help your handling even more james.lol

26th August 2007, 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by awright

how about you buy my 40mm gmc springs to help your handling even more james.lol

No thanks..

26th August 2007, 10:24

boooooooooolol

26th August 2007, 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by awright

boooooooooolol

lol

26th August 2007, 11:23

std gti vs a moddied stripped 8v lol

and you say theyre not as fast as people think, put your engine std and put interior back in.

then you see why people talk about them.

cant compair a modded set up with std. then say std is slow. lol

26th August 2007, 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85

std gti vs a moddied stripped 8v lol

and you say theyre not as fast as people think, put your engine std and put interior back in.

then you see why people talk about them.

cant compair a modded set up with std. then say std is slow. lol

But thats why i'm doing to mine what iam doing, so it can play with bigger cars..

26th August 2007, 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by James_Bristol

But thats why i'm doing to mine what iam doing, so it can play with bigger cars..

but then when bigger cars, strip, cam, put decent suspension on.

you run off with your tail between your legs

26th August 2007, 12:15

if it was me i wouldnt shout about it and see what happens in the end. have some control young james

will be a great little project and then in the future i can see you throwing in a tuned vts engine

26th August 2007, 12:53

Going back to the cam topic... Catcam 708s for the 16v lump, were these designed specifically in mind of how much clearance they will have with the pistons at TDC? I'm just wondering what the exact clearance is (roughly 2-3 mm?) and whether or not Catcam do any other models which will still fit with standard pistons.

Also, isn't it the cam duration that's more important (as opposed to the lift) when it comes to getting the most power out of the engine. Hence, why is it not possible to create a cam shaft that will still fit with standard pistons (like the 708s) but has a higher duration...

26th August 2007, 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itsafastworld85

but then when bigger cars, strip, cam, put decent suspension on.

you run off with your tail between your legs

I know..

I just want a quick 1400, if it end up being like a 16v performance wise thats just a bonus tbh..

Quote:

Originally Posted by bullit

if it was me i wouldnt shout about it and see what happens in the end. have some control young james

will be a great little project and then in the future i can see you throwing in a tuned vts engine

LOL

Ok sir..

Yeah should be a cool little project, i can see an S engine going in one day if i can put up with no radio and carpet for long enough..lol

26th August 2007, 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toad

Going back to the cam topic... Catcam 708s for the 16v lump, were these designed specifically in mind of how much clearance they will have with the pistons at TDC? I'm just wondering what the exact clearance is (roughly 2-3 mm?) and whether or not Catcam do any other models which will still fit with standard pistons.

Also, isn't it the cam duration that's more important (as opposed to the lift) when it comes to getting the most power out of the engine. Hence, why is it not possible to create a cam shaft that will still fit with standard pistons (like the 708s) but has a higher duration...

Yeah i think the duration is the important part..not 100% though..

26th August 2007, 14:40

If you have a look on the description of the cams on http://www.kam-racing.com/product_in...roducts_id/749 it'll tell you the full spec of the cams including valve clearances

29th August 2007, 09:45

Going on about the 1400 v 1600 etc etc...

James, I think you have the best head on this site because your modifying your car to make yourself happy.

Plus 1400s are ace because its the most competitive rally class going and the vast array of cars is excellent.

The duration of a cam is how many degrees it turns apposed to the crank. So if a cam rotates say 300 degrees and the cranks rotates 360 degrees then there gona be very close to the piston as aposed to a 285 degree cam.

Im not sure if you understand that but i know where im coming from haha.

PS. My made up cam degrees do not reflect real cams, it was an example.

29th August 2007, 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colin

Going on about the 1400 v 1600 etc etc...

James, I think you have the best head on this site because your modifying your car to make yourself happy.

Plus 1400s are ace because its the most competitive rally class going and the vast array of cars is excellent.

The duration of a cam is how many degrees it turns apposed to the crank. So if a cam rotates say 300 degrees and the cranks rotates 360 degrees then there gona be very close to the piston as aposed to a 285 degree cam.

Im not sure if you understand that but i know where im coming from haha.

PS. My made up cam degrees do not reflect real cams, it was an example.

Hey Colin..

Thanks for the comments and yeah i do get what you mean..

Glad someone see's why i'm doing this engine..

29th August 2007, 15:25

I see what you mean. Because of the longer duration, there's going to more chance of the valve being open at TDC ?

29th August 2007, 15:29

Or nearer to the piston I should say...

29th August 2007, 15:30

Yep because the longer the duration, the longer the valves are open for.

29th August 2007, 15:50

So when a cam is listed as having 'X' amount of lift. Is that only refering to the lift at TDC?

29th August 2007, 16:34

Well depends on what stroke of the engines its on.

It would be open on the 1st and 4th stroke. So the piston would be going down (induction) the inlet valve would be opening as the piston goes down, then when it comes up for the compression stroke, the valve shuts. But if the duration of the cam is high, then there is a chance that the valve will not shut in time, therefore you need rebated pistons so theres room for error.

And as a cam has longer duration and a higher lift, it increases these chances of whacking the piston. Because its open for and longer and its open further.

Sorry if you dont understand me or if ive repeated anything. Im just going from experiences and NVQs etc lol.

29th August 2007, 16:36

Oh and if its slightly open at TDC then you get blow through. But thats only common with turbos lol.

29th August 2007, 18:20

I do understand that, promise.

But that still doesn't answer my original question: Why would you have more lift with a cam that has a longer duration? I understand the principal of where the valve would be during the 4 strokes. I also understand how with a performance cam shaft, you will have overlap, and also at TDC (just before the intake storke - for example) the inlet valve would be slightly open, so not to lose the momentum of the air / fuel travelling into the cylinder... I still can't quite grasp the concept of why a longer duration is directly related to the lift.

30th August 2007, 09:21

Oh right lol.

Basic engine power tuning has a simple equation. More air you can get in thick and fast, the more power you can get out.

So if a cam has a long duration this means the valve is open for longer. That equals more power because air has more TIME to be drawn in.

And also if the valve has been lifted open further, that means more power because more air and fuel is being drawn in.

So combine these 2 factors and hey presto, a nice increase in power.

General rule again, longer duration equals more lift, more power and thus shifts all power up the rev range because revs at that speed can only make the cam work.

30th August 2007, 21:11

Arg. I know, lol. But that still doesn't answer the question. Why does a longer duration cam = more lift? I can understand how it would mean more lift at TDC, but I can't see how it would be directly related to the maximum distance the valve can open.

31st August 2007, 08:01

to put it basic

the higher you can get the lift the bigger the space the fuel and air have to occupy

and in turn cos you have more air and fuel mixing the explosion is bigger

durations from what ive seen never give a true idea of the cam

kents 266 cam for the vtr for example is better than the piper 270 cam cos the valve lift etc etc is slightly higher on the kent one

ive spent ages looking at all makes and the above is just one thing i noticed that the duration numbers companys give there cames dont meen one make with a lower duration number will actually be any smaller than another companys with a higher one

if that makes sence lol