head gaskit, - what thickness?

22nd July 2010, 20:30

basically, the heads off now, and in progressive of been rebuilt, ph3 itb's ect, just wondering what head gaskit to run? as am not really to sure about it? would like an uprate one if there is one... any help be great guy cheers

22nd July 2010, 20:32

your spelling/grammer is shocking

22nd July 2010, 20:34

first of all there no such thing as an uprated H/G for a saxo!! as john from GMC with tell you... just company saying that to add money...

is it a 16v or 8v?

i am using the standard 1.4mm H/G on my Ph3, bodies and high comp engine... but also depends on how much is skimmed of the head... if you take too much off and but a 1.4mm gasket... could have clearance problems... but should be ok with the standard size 1.4mm one... if the nhead hasnt had too much taken off it... for peice of mind could get a gen citreon one..

22nd July 2010, 20:37

go for a standard headgasket thickness unless you're skimming some of the head.

I like to go for Citroen headgaskets and headbolts personally

22nd July 2010, 20:37

I do not fully understand what you are asking. But if your asking what thickness head gasket to use then the answer would be standard unless you have skimmed the head. If you have skimmed the head then you would require a thicker gasket if you wished to maintain the compression ratio.

22nd July 2010, 20:39

yer if you skimmed the head... could still use the standard size.. to increase the CR abit to help the N/A engine...

22nd July 2010, 20:40

its a vts, ok then so is there any brands of hg tht are better then others? also am not sure if its been skimmed befor or not as its not the orginal engine, is there any ways to tell if it has or not? dose fitting say a 1.6mm make any difference proformace wise or anything? cheers

sorry niccole was on the phone and not looking at the key board at all, will edit it for you now

22nd July 2010, 20:41

I'd just go with a standard thickness headgasket from Citroen - around £45

22nd July 2010, 20:47

ok cheers mate, is it worth having it skimmed? the hg had't gone the head was just taken off. not really sure how you tell if you need it skimming or not?

22nd July 2010, 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark1311

dose fitting say a 1.6mm make any difference proformace wise or anything? cheers

sorry niccole was on the phone and not looking at the key board at all, will edit it for you now

The thicker you go the lower the compression ratio will go so will lower the performance

22nd July 2010, 20:56

thought so, but say it has been skimmed and need say a 1.6mm hg and fit a 1.4mm one what damage be caused?

22nd July 2010, 21:03

depends on how close the valve clearances are - with ph3's you're getting close on the valve clearance front.

All that'll happen is you won't be able to safely time up the cams as the valves may just touch the top of the pistons at higher revs.

Just fit the standard width hg

22nd July 2010, 21:07

the valves could hit the pistons if the gasket is to thin

22nd July 2010, 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

depends on how close the valve clearances are - with ph3's you're getting close on the valve clearance front.

All that'll happen is you won't be able to safely time up the cams as the valves may just touch the top of the pistons at higher revs.

Just fit the standard width hg

beat me to it

22nd July 2010, 21:09

it 1.7mm dude... and well i using a non citreon h/g working fine on mine dude.... get the head skim will only be a light skim dude... and maybe get them to messure it... if you could find the normal standard size of a head then they could work it out.

but i think a standard sizw would be ok for you.. could use the 1.6/1.7mm one just to be safe dude... i wouldnt make much different.

22nd July 2010, 21:10

tht was my thinking, doset tht = fooked engine? or just knackered valves? fitting standard hg and not been able to have cams timed up proply, is't that going to cause me to loose some power?

22nd July 2010, 21:11

also if your fitting itb's and fitting cams why dont you go for the ph4's? will get the most out of the bodies, yes there is a bit more of an expense with having your pistons pocketed though

22nd July 2010, 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark1311

tht was my thinking, doset tht = fooked engine? or just knackered valves? fitting standard hg and not been able to have cams timed up proply, is't that going to cause me to loose some power?

yes you will loose power if its not timed up right and i would have thought it would be very lumpy, and if your pistons hit the valves then yes you will definitely need new valves and also it could very well damage your pistons

22nd July 2010, 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark1311

sorry niccole was on the phone and not looking at the key board at all, will edit it for you now

ahh right, i thought you didnt normally type like a retard lol

22nd July 2010, 21:16

i have considered ph4's tbh, but i wont i then need uprate clutch, and forged bottom end, yer tht was my thinking tbh, dont fancy blowing another vts block up, my 1st one cracked in half haha.

so if i whent down the ph4 route engine wise what do you need to change ect?

22nd July 2010, 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicole_

ahh right, i thought you didnt normally type like a retard lol

you put things in a lovely way ha

22nd July 2010, 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark1311

i have considered ph4's tbh, but i wont i then need uprate clutch, and forged bottom end, yer tht was my thinking tbh, dont fancy blowing another vts block up, my 1st one cracked in half haha.

so if i whent down the ph4 route engine wise what do you need to change ect?

tbh i thought it was just the pistons that need pocketing or buy forged ones, like i said you dont have to buy forged pistons you can get your oem ones pocketed which im guessing is cheaper

22nd July 2010, 21:25

lol, i was putting off typing a long reply but here goes.

If you are wanting to do it properly, take the head to an expert and get it lightly skimmed and then ask him to measure the head so you know how much has been taken off from the standard height. If you speak to your local Citroen dealer nicely, then I'm sure they'll tell you the oem head height and your machinist cam measure the head up to work out how much has been removed.

This will allow you to work out the headgasket thickness that you need (oem, oem +0.2mm etc.).

But then you do need to work out how much valve clearance you have with ph3's fitted, timed up as per their spec and your selected height headgasket.

It is considered to be safe around the 1.3mm valve clearance at tdc inlet, and 1.25mm at tdc exhaust side. I'm pretty sure people have run closer but upto the size of your balls really and the sort of rpm limit you are thinking.

From this you can work out whether you can run a thinner headgasket, or you need a thicker one.

Colin Satchell can machine some larger cut-outs into the pistons if you want to run ph4's - but means taking the pistons out.

At this point you're probably just thinking about getting the head straightness checked, a light skim if needed and a oem + repair 1 headgasket, or if it's within spec, just an oem headgasket thickness

22nd July 2010, 21:35

also ph4 will need so uprated valve springs well.. maybe best getting new followers!!

ph4 will add about 2-3k on top if done correctly... and maybe more if you can do it yourself...

22nd July 2010, 21:36

ok cheers ross big help there as usual, i have a spare set of piston tht i could send him whilst i remove these ones. do you have any rough idea how much he charges? and would u reccomend it? an not reali sure about rev limit ect, am not reali to sure bout it all tbh, i get how to do it all taking it apart rebuilding it just the specs of what needs to be replaced ect am not sure on.

22nd July 2010, 21:36

Need new followers with new cams - wear the mating surfaces in together

22nd July 2010, 21:37

proply been, forged bottom end, uprated valve springs, followers ect?

22nd July 2010, 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark1311

ok cheers ross big help there as usual, i have a spare set of piston tht i could send him whilst i remove these ones. do you have any rough idea how much he charges? and would u reccomend it? an not reali sure about rev limit ect, am not reali to sure bout it all tbh, i get how to do it all taking it apart rebuilding it just the specs of what needs to be replaced ect am not sure on.

Well, my only worry piston wise would be the rings. Do you reuse the old ones on the pocketed pistons? Do you fit new ones with old bores? Or get it honed out and new rings?

I don't know how much he charges but would budget £200.

As to whether it's worth it, only you can decide tbh.

Personally if I was going ph4's I'd like to go with some forged hi comp pistons - it starts to get expensive now!!

IMO just fit standard width headgasket, get ph3's and bodies and enjoy it

22nd July 2010, 21:46

yer forged pistons are not just for the pockets it also the material they used.. they are lighter than the stnadard pistons so will rev faster... also they are design to flow better.. well meant too...

22nd July 2010, 21:50

yer agreed there mate will stick with ph3's... for now. can always built another engine up whilst this one is been used. with ph3's is there anything tht needs to be changes apart from followers? and do they need to be replaced or just a gd idea?

22nd July 2010, 21:53

like ross said should always replace the followers as the follower faces waer abit to the cam face..

so yes replace them dude

22nd July 2010, 21:54

If you fit new cams, I'd fit new followers so the contact surfaces (top of follower and cam lobe) wear with each other.

The rest of the head is fine really. It has been commented that the springs should be replaced if the heads done a lot of miles - you can make your own judgement into that.

Then get them timed up, and mapped up for tbs

22nd July 2010, 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndySAXO

also ph4 will need so uprated valve springs well.. maybe best getting new followers!!

ph4 will add about 2-3k on top if done correctly... and maybe more if you can do it yourself...

do you mean £2-3k or 2-3k revs?? sorry if i sound stupid there lol

22nd July 2010, 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

I don't know how much he charges but would budget £200.

would you say £200 is the most it will cost to have pistons cut?

this thread is coming in useful as when i get back to uni i wanna start building up a throttled bodied 1.4 xsi engine and dump it in a flat arch saxo, and ive been wondering which cam ph3 or ph4 to go for

22nd July 2010, 22:05

well, I don't know the price exactly, but would imagine budgetting £45 a piston plus then delivery back would sound reasonable - no doubt it could be done for cheaper. The labour cost is setting the machine up, then just churning through 4 pistons machining the cut-outs.

you have to weigh up the costs on getting them machined vs. some forged hi comps.

22nd July 2010, 22:11

cheers guys, well i may aswell replace the springs whilst am at it, whitch is the bit on top of the spring tht hold the valve in called? would be worth replacing though to?

22nd July 2010, 22:13

the valve cap? or you have 2 collets which 'wedge' the valve to the valve cap.

I wouldn't replace them personally, but people might say otherwise.

22nd July 2010, 22:15

i mean 2-3 grand... depending on if you biuld it or not

22nd July 2010, 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndySAXO

i mean 2-3 grand... depending on if you biuld it or not

you on about the whole engine?? im guessing you are

for a second i thought you were saying to buy/fit the cams and new springs/followers and forged pistons would cost £2-3k

22nd July 2010, 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffchiz

you on about the whole engine?? im guessing you are

for a second i thought you were saying to buy/fit the cams and new springs/followers and forged pistons would cost £2-3k

welll:

cams £300
springs £100
followers £200
Pistons £500
cambelt kit £75
Rebore for pistons £150
Mapping £500

so a total of - £1825

Add in some TB's, injectors, a clutch, gearbox and flywhel to compliment and you're sailing past the £3k mark.

22nd July 2010, 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

welll:

cams £300
springs £100
followers £200
Pistons £500
cambelt kit £75
Rebore for pistons £150
Mapping £500

so a total of - £1825

Add in some TB's, injectors, a clutch, gearbox and flywhel to compliment and you're sailing past the £3k mark.

i was literally talking about the pistons, cams, springs and followers, dont worry im not under estimating the cost also i wanna do it to an 8v so only one cam and less springs

23rd July 2010, 08:41

Dnt forget if your going to change piston would maybe get he crank out and balance and polish that, new bearing which will add about 300 quidish, and then a new oil pump that 100.

Soon starts adding up.

23rd July 2010, 11:25

take it baffled sump would be a good idea to add to the list aswell? another 150ish?

23rd July 2010, 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark1311

take it baffled sump would be a good idea to add to the list aswell? another 150ish?

Depends on what sort of driving you're doing ?

It's arguable whether they are needed but I'll be fitting one to minimise the risk of engine damage

23rd July 2010, 13:34

Yer can do, wouldnt do any harm.

If you can get one, or I could maybe do one for you, would need a sump to weld the baffles in.

23rd July 2010, 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndySAXO

Dnt forget if your going to change piston would maybe get he crank out and balance and polish that, new bearing which will add about 300 quidish, and then a new oil pump that 100.

Soon starts adding up.

if i do do it ill get the block honed, crack balanced, better con rod bolts, pistons cut and cylinder head ported and polished.... hopefully find one company that can do all the work

23rd July 2010, 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffchiz

if i do do it ill get the block honed, crack balanced, better con rod bolts, pistons cut and cylinder head ported and polished.... hopefully find one company that can do all the work

ouch, I hope you've got a healthy bank balance !

IMO, you'd need to following done:

- block honed
- block straightness checked

- I'd personally leave crank alone unless it needs work as is scored etc.

- if port and polishing the head then make sure you get it done with a reputable company

- not sure about rod bolts as to whether they are needed. ARP do rod bolts, not sure whether they do a bolt for the xsi rods though.

- piston wise, might be worth looking for a forged piston in the right spec you want as opposed to getting the standard ones machined up?

23rd July 2010, 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

- piston wise, might be worth looking for a forged piston in the right spec you want as opposed to getting the standard ones machined up?

i thought forged pistons were only really needed on boosted set ups? as its gonna cost me a bit id rather not spend money on things which doesnt have to be spent ie on forged pistons if i can get my standard one pocketed

and yea it was arp bolts i was thinking about, but i couldnt remember the name when i left that comment lol these probably wouldn't be needed but iirc they are pretty cheap so would seam stupid to not invest in them, but if they dont make them oem bolts will have to do lol

23rd July 2010, 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

Depends on what sort of driving you're doing ?

It's arguable whether they are needed but I'll be fitting one to minimise the risk of engine damage

its mainly going to be track driving. the ones u mentioned in a month or so ago in the group buy, its litterali a bolt in jobby is't it or dose it need welding ect?

23rd July 2010, 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark1311

its mainly going to be track driving. the ones u mentioned in a month or so ago in the group buy, its litterali a bolt in jobby is't it or dose it need welding ect?

The groupbuy is over now - it was a superb price though. Is just a bolt in item although it does need the oil pump removing though I think - I've not fitted mine yet so can't say for sure.

Well when you say track driving, you going for stiff suspension and sticky tyres? Or something like 155lb faulkners and road tyres?

You got an oil pressure gauge with an alarm ?

23rd July 2010, 16:04

This is the craziest head gasket recommendation thread i have ever seen!!!!

23rd July 2010, 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamskiTNR

This is the craziest head gasket recommendation thread i have ever seen!!!!

still not sure on the thickness of headgasket that he needs

23rd July 2010, 16:32

So after 3 pages and £3000 worth of engine rebuild components the conundrum still remains.
loooool

23rd July 2010, 16:37

standard width headgasket

thread closed

23rd July 2010, 16:41

meh head gaskets are boring lol

23rd July 2010, 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffchiz

meh head gaskets are boring lol

don't know why people don't just use some gasket paper and be done with it

sod all this mulit layer steel stuff

iJOKE

23rd July 2010, 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

don't know why people don't just use some gasket paper and be done with it

sod all this mulit layer steel stuff

iJOKE

i had an idea a while back of just using velco, quick release cylinder head

23rd July 2010, 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffchiz

i had an idea a while back of just using velco, quick release cylinder head

certainly easy to change the headgasket -

23rd July 2010, 17:00

then we can do away with these cylinder head bolt rubbish as well

24th July 2010, 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

The groupbuy is over now - it was a superb price though. Is just a bolt in item although it does need the oil pump removing though I think - I've not fitted mine yet so can't say for sure.

Well when you say track driving, you going for stiff suspension and sticky tyres? Or something like 155lb faulkners and road tyres?

You got an oil pressure gauge with an alarm ?

i was just meaning the actuali item in the group buy as i have seen some and they need welding or something? ok mate, could you make a guide when you fit yours mate?

susspention and tyre wise not even started on tht yet, atm the car is a shell withh everything removed so can be rebuilt.

24th July 2010, 12:03

would help if you could spell it mate... 8v or 16? whats the car used for?

24th July 2010, 20:24

would help if you read the thread, dose says vts and also says what they cars used for

27th July 2010, 22:58

took head to be skimmed today... so going for the 1.4mm hg, gd idea?

27th July 2010, 23:00

Is 1.4mm the oem thickness?

I can't remember off the top of my head but think they are 1.5, 1.7 or 1.9mm depending if you go oem, repair 1 or repair 2.

29th February 2012, 14:54

I have just purchased a steel multilayer head gasket for my vts. And was wondering will I need any head work or will the compression be the same ?

2nd October 2012, 13:27

so standard head gasket thickness is 1.4 mm?

if you take 0.5mm off the head then use 1.9mm head gasket?

Tom

2nd October 2012, 21:12

Any help here Ross ?