Strenghening plate

11th January 2011, 17:09

just having a nose on ebay and came across these
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

just looking at them they're very similler and are both different sizes so i was just wondering what would be the idea size to go with when adding strenghening plates

11th January 2011, 17:22

The bottom ones i think are 106 ones as they have the bonnet lifters on the strut tops.

Im looking at order some of these myself very soon considering im running 300lb springs as would like some strenghtening up front. Just weld in place.

11th January 2011, 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsdvtr

The bottom ones i think are 106 ones as they have the bonnet lifters on the strut tops.

Im looking at order some of these myself very soon considering im running 300lb springs as would like some strenghtening up front. Just weld in place.

thats a similler reason to why i want to run them thing is what size thickness would you go for

11th January 2011, 17:54

strut top plates are a good mod even for a fast road car. i bent both my tops on soft gmax springs a while back.

ive seen a lot of standard cars with bent/domed top mounts.

i run 250lbs fronts now so i fit the 5mm plates in. can also still keep my strutbrace.

the best picture i have at this moment

11th January 2011, 18:00

so its not a case of bigger is better as i was thinking £13 extra for the 2mm seems alot and ive got an upper strut brace to go over the top like the above photo, so will the 4mm plates be alright for the job,

11th January 2011, 18:04

go for the 4mm.

id guess theyre only 2mm thick as standard so thyre going to bend easy. extra 4mm will be plenty.

11th January 2011, 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexy_gt

go for the 4mm.

id guess theyre only 2mm thick as standard so thyre going to bend easy. extra 4mm will be plenty.

really that thin cheers tho mate saved me £13 lol

11th January 2011, 18:08

id only go thicker if you doing gavel rallying or some other serious bumpy terrain type stuff.

11th January 2011, 18:14

The 6mm ones are stated for Forest rallying which is likely to be bumpy as fook.

4mm will be more than adequate for any road use

11th January 2011, 22:25

Check APS cars for some aswell, their site hasnt worked for months now so youll have to phone them. Only like £18 though for the pair

11th January 2011, 22:40

welding 6mm plates to 2mm strut tops, will take a decent welder to get a good weld on that, what would you reccomed for doing it?

11th January 2011, 22:42

Also if you are using these top strut strengthening plates with high lb springs, then its going to send the pressure to the next weekness spot. Down the side of the turret weld a bar or something.

11th January 2011, 22:52

personali if i was running over 200/220lb springs i would defo be seam welding the entire car, ect.

12th January 2011, 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark1311

personali if i was running over 200/220lb springs i would defo be seam welding the entire car, ect.

thats on my list of things to do whilst the engines out and am getting the cage fitted

12th January 2011, 11:59

How much work/cost is it to get the car seam welded? Or just the bay?

12th January 2011, 12:52

this might help...

Saxo price guide
- Non sun roof skin supplied and fitted with roof bow, painted in non matching paint (i.e silver car with black roof ect) £370, painted in card colour code £400.
- Seam weld interior £150, this included welds been treated with zinc paint to stop rusting.
- Engine bay seam welding £90 extra £10 for strengthening plated to be welded on, this included welds been treated with zinc paint to stop rusting.
- Engine bay sprayed with non colour coded paint, £140, or with colour coded paint £170.
- Interior respray (dose not included cage) £220 non colour coded paint, £290 with colour coded paint.
- Interior respray with roll cage £290 non colour coded paint, £350 with colour coded paint.
- Welding roll cages in also available contact for details as prices vary depending on the roll cage.

12th January 2011, 13:01

Is it possible to do it yourself the seam welding as a know someone with a welder who uses it to do with his job and was going to weld extra bars onto my cage or could ask a mate who does stuff on side who works in a bodyshop.

12th January 2011, 13:08

anyone with a good mig welder and good at welding will be able to do it, i wud recommend at least a 150amp turbo welder for the job. also i wud defo use a gas mig welder and ideali use argashield over co2.

there just rough prices i charge, we tend to get track cars like people are building on here,... but there rich kids and aint intrested in the build just the driving so daddy pays for work to be done then kids go thrash tits off em...

12th January 2011, 14:20

Mark those prices for seal welding are very good. Do you do work on the side as well as at work, and do you have the capacity to do mobile work?

How long does the seam welding take for a car of 106/saxo/Ax size, and im assuming you'd expect all of the original underseal covering panel joins to have been removed beforehand - Any recommendation for the best method to remove it?

Im contemplating whether to get my Ax done whilst its bare shelled

12th January 2011, 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by willsy

Mark those prices for seal welding are very good. Do you do work on the side as well as at work, and do you have the capacity to do mobile work?

How long does the seam welding take for a car of 106/saxo/Ax size, and im assuming you'd expect all of the original underseal covering panel joins to have been removed beforehand - Any recommendation for the best method to remove it?

Im contemplating whether to get my Ax done whilst its bare shelled

thats the price i charge on my own at work add about 35% on top of them prices,... am in middle of stuff atm... i work there full time, but were moving house in next 2 weeks, an the new house has a monster garage, so plans are to work from home doing the basic motorsport prep work i.e stuff on that list, as i have all the tools my self, like monster 200litre compressor

ect etc...

the undersealing stuff your talking about do you mean the like rubber stuff thts underneath the car? and yes them prices are for pre stripped cars wud be like 15quid an hour on top of tht price for stripping work ect...

time wise about 1 and half days to do each of the welding jobs then about 3 extra days for paint bay and 5days for interia.

i shall give u a pm anyways

12th January 2011, 14:50

also, we have a couple tools to strip it back to bare metal, angle grinder with a backing pad and a sanding disk is good, also we use this hell of alot there fantacstic http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/pr...rs-consumables

sam but ours is air power.

12th January 2011, 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark1311

personali if i was running over 200/220lb springs i would defo be seam welding the entire car, ect.

i have a decent 10point cage, re-enforced cage mounts (4mm plate and box section), strut top plates and a pair of strut braces. would of thought thats all the extra strength i will need for average joe in his track car?

i guess i will see my seams splitting if i need the chasis seam welding?

12th January 2011, 17:46

Personli if I was u seam welding it wud be next thing on my list, you have added all this strenth to your car that's good! But what's actuality holds your car together? A few shity spot welds? You have strenthed all the indervidual chassis componets so now there all stiff but like I say all thatss holding the now very stiff panels together is very weak spot welds.

12th January 2011, 18:19

point taken and noted

12th January 2011, 18:30

only down road if you need anything doing mate let me no

12th January 2011, 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark1311

only down road if you need anything doing mate let me no

quite handy. i didnt realise you was close by. i dont mind you saying so either

12th January 2011, 18:39

yer mate, old mans family from grimsby well was moved to welton now. yer no worrys mate like say if you need owt just give me a shout

12th January 2011, 18:48

3 questions just out of interest, how long does it take to do the interior if its been prepared, once welded what do you use to grind down the welds just a dremel type bit and how long after the spot welds have been done can you replace the carpet and use the car

12th January 2011, 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by rorz_vts

3 questions just out of interest, how long does it take to do the interior if its been prepared, once welded what do you use to grind down the welds just a dremel type bit and how long after the spot welds have been done can you replace the carpet and use the car

how long does it take to do the interior if its been prepared? take it you mean if the cars stripped out and ready to go? if cars ready to be welded i would say just for interia seam welded about a day and half/ 2day. as your cant go hell for leather on it and you will distort the metal and thats last thing you wont.

genrali the welds look nice neat and tidy so just leave them, if theres a messy one ect, i just rub the air file over them to neathen them up, more you take off more strenth you taking away,

how you mean how long till you can replace the carpet? soon as its cool and zinc paints dry...

hope that answered your questions

12th January 2011, 19:09

is that 2 days full labour charge?

12th January 2011, 19:15

thats cost of it to be done over the 2day yer

....

12th January 2011, 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark1311

thats cost of it to be done over the 2day yer

....

you can fully clean up and seam weld a saxo in 2 days. if you can mate your fast. we got a scooby 2 door in work for seam welding and a age welding in and its taken my boss 2 days to clean off all seam sealer and not started welding yet.

p.s do you heat treat the welds after with heat cycles or do you just weld up and leave?

12th January 2011, 19:49

i take it you do plenty of geometry checks throughout?

12th January 2011, 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexy_gt

i take it you do plenty of geometry checks throughout?

when we do them at work they are on the car o liner all the time to check with the laser chassis alignment i cant see how you can do a propper job in 2 days at home in a garage.

12th January 2011, 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by bedford126

you can fully clean up and seam weld a saxo in 2 days. if you can mate your fast. we got a scooby 2 door in work for seam welding and a age welding in and its taken my boss 2 days to clean off all seam sealer and not started welding yet.

p.s do you heat treat the welds after with heat cycles or do you just weld up and leave?

we just do an inch at a time, let it cool off then do another pannel ect so its not reali needed,

depends how long you work for each day, and on saxo's there not to much seam sealer to remove, compared, done a couple in 2days in passed, maybe a 3rd day wud be ideal cut work few less hours then haha

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexy_gt

i take it you do plenty of geometry checks throughout?

yer mate, we check all time as we go, one them things though if you dont go hell for leather putting loads heat in one place at once then alow to cool off nicely we neva had a proplem,... i no of a place 1st time he did a full seam weld job, he preped all car, then just whent for it didt stop to let anything cool down at all,... say least there was "a little disortion" loll

12th January 2011, 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark1311

we just do an inch at a time, let it cool off then do another pannel ect so its not reali needed,depends how long you work for each day, and on saxo's there not to much seam sealer to remove, compared, done a couple in 2days in passed, maybe a 3rd day wud be ideal cut work few less hours then haha

if you seam weld anything without going through at least 1 heat cycle then the weld becomes the strong point and the metal around becomes weak the metal around the weld needs to be heated to the same temperature as the weld then cooled together to become molecular bonded "all the same strength". this has to be done on all WRC cars and all BTCC cars iirc.

12th January 2011, 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by bedford126

if you seam weld anything without going through at least 1 heat cycle then the weld becomes the strong point and the metal around becomes weak the metal around the weld needs to be heated to the same temperature as the weld then cooled together to become molecular bonded "all the same strength". this has to be done on all WRC cars and all BTCC cars iirc.

how do you go about heating up the area with a heat gun? and do you do it before/during or after

12th January 2011, 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by bedford126

if you seam weld anything without going through at least 1 heat cycle then the weld becomes the strong point and the metal around becomes weak the metal around the weld needs to be heated to the same temperature as the weld then cooled together to become molecular bonded "all the same strength". this has to be done on all WRC cars and all BTCC cars iirc.

wrc and btcc cars is hell lot different to saxo's been used on track days the price that i said was a very good quailty job, yet on budget as most ppl are on here, yer we can off this how your saying no proplems at all... but its going to put the price though the roof that people on here just wont pay, as would be more then there cars worth in some cases, when you think how crap a saxo if buit its defo going to add some seriour's strenth compared to the odd few spot welds that hold saxos together,...

what am saying is a good service at a very very good price,... its like differance between... say Perspex windows and lexan windows, both do the job just some more money and that bit better then others,....

who you work for btw?

12th January 2011, 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by rorz_vts

how do you go about heating up the area with a heat gun? and do you do it before/during or after

at work we use oxy acet to heat the panel upto cherry red before we weld it "about 6 inch at a time" then weld the panel join then leave to cool this keeps the weld pool nice and even and also allows a better weld then once its cool you heat the panel back up to cherry red and rapid cool it using a airline and your sorted.

the bloke who does it at my work and taught me how to do it rite worked at prodrive for 7 years welding roll cages in the wrc cars so he knows his stuff just welding the panel gaps will make you think the car is more solid but infact you have just doubled the weak spot at both sides of the weld.

12th January 2011, 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by bedford126

at work we use oxy acet to heat the panel upto cherry red before we weld it "about 6 inch at a time" then weld the panel join then leave to cool this keeps the weld pool nice and even and also allows a better weld then once its cool you heat the panel back up to cherry red and rapid cool it using a airline and your sorted.

the bloke who does it at my work and taught me how to do it rite worked at prodrive for 7 years welding roll cages in the wrc cars so he knows his stuff just welding the panel gaps will make you think the car is more solid but infact you have just doubled the weak spot at both sides of the weld.

so what your saying is its pointless to do unless you do it properly with the correct heating/cooling procedure

12th January 2011, 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by rorz_vts

so what your saying is its pointless to do unless you do it properly with the correct heating/cooling procedure

basically yes! im not saying that the chap above does a bad job but whilst your seam welding its just good practice to heat then cool as you go.

and i work for ARC Motor Sport Developments (ford) and no not the carting company.

12th January 2011, 20:41

i agree with you its good to do and we do often do it this way at work, but price aint cheap to do it that way...

you have to think though a saxo is held together with spot welds every 3 inch or so,... so a nice seam weld of couple inchs even though it may weaken the metal a little at both sides it has to be hell lot stronger then the shit spot welds?

12th January 2011, 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark1311

i agree with you its good to do and we do often do it this way at work, but price aint cheap to do it that way...

you have to think though a saxo is held together with spot welds every 3 inch or so,... so a nice seam weld of couple inchs even though it may weaken the metal a little at both sides it has to be hell lot stronger then the shit spot welds?

not entirely this is the reason they only use spot welds in the factory places like subaru and mitsubishi only use a 2 inch seam weld every 6 inches as a full seam weakens the metal and its not quick enough to do the heat cycle in there factory's i dont want to shit on any 1 i was just throwing some knowledge out there as i been welding since i was 15 and im fully qualified in mig arc gas and tig.

12th January 2011, 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by bedford126

basically yes! im not saying that the chap above does a bad job but whilst your seam welding its just good practice to heat then cool as you go.

and i work for ARC Motor Sport Developments (ford) and no not the carting company.

right i see where your coming from but i also see where marks coming from in the post below about how it must be stronger than the standard welds, i only use my car as a weekend runner and the odd track day so surely just spot welding would do the job to add abit of extra strenght

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark1311

i agree with you its good to do and we do often do it this way at work, but price aint cheap to do it that way...

you have to think though a saxo is held together with spot welds every 3 inch or so,... so a nice seam weld of couple inchs even though it may weaken the metal a little at both sides it has to be hell lot stronger then the shit spot welds?

12th January 2011, 21:05

am not talking about doing a full seam welded inside... how we do it is like this on the s2 trs rally car.

Welded up the holes on the floor.

12th January 2011, 21:08

ok mate looks good but if it was me whilst i was there i would full seam weld it mite as well whilst all the prep work is done seems silly to do it twice imo.

12th January 2011, 21:10

the main reason theyre not welded up fully in the manufacture process, is because it would take too long thus costing more, and would cost more before you put labour times into it because of the extra materials needed to weld it properly

bedford is right in what hes saying for the process involved, but those processes are for cars that will generally have alot better susp set ups and be alot more powerful taking more abuse then the average weekend track toy...... wrc and btcc etc as said, any sort of seam welding provided the welds are decent, will provide great benefits to most cars never mind track cars, will help take alot of the strains of a fast road set up and keep the car more rigid, even more so in a track toy

very good mod to do even in the lesser form

12th January 2011, 21:13

not my work in picture above stole example off here lol. yer i can fully under stand what your saying, and would love to do that but like said ebfor lots people on budgets so it offers them extra strenth for there budget. what kind of prices would you charge for full seam weld how your saying? bout 600/700?

12th January 2011, 21:15

the trs car was the 1 that i was looking at that sparked my interest at doing this, so would that type of seam welding be ok for a fastroad / weekend track car, i can see what bedford means about doing it properly whilst the prep works all been done but i wont have the correct tools / money to do it that way

12th January 2011, 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark1311

not my work in picture above stole example off here lol. yer i can fully under stand what your saying, and would love to do that but like said ebfor lots people on budgets so it offers them extra strenth for there budget. what kind of prices would you charge for full seam weld how your saying? bout 600/700?

to do my civic ek9 i was charged 400 and thats for fully welded cabin and engine bay and heat treated that was just for the labour of tim the prodrive bloke i had materials on top of that. for the subaru we have in work at the moment its 500 for the seam welding and paint and 600 for the cage fitting it will be show car quality when finished though.

although we did a mk1 clio not so long back and he was charged 400 inc paint for full cabin and engine bay. all depends on how you talk to the boss and how much seam sealer is in the panel joins.

12th January 2011, 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by rorz_vts

the trs car was the 1 that i was looking at that sparked my interest at doing this, so would that type of seam welding be ok for a fastroad / weekend track car, i can see what bedford means about doing it properly whilst the prep works all been done but i wont have the correct tools / money to do it that way

tbh mate, i very much doubt youd need to go that far, the way mark does it would be more then sufficient for most

12th January 2011, 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

tbh mate, i very much doubt youd need to go that far, the way mark does it would be more then sufficient for most

see i thought this as the trs cars going to be used for gravel rallying and mine wont take anywhere near as much abuse as that no doubt, would be nice to have it all done properly mind

12th January 2011, 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by rorz_vts

see i thought this as the trs cars going to be used for gravel rallying and mine wont take anywhere near as much abuse as that no doubt, would be nice to have it all done properly mind

tbh mate i would getit fully done for the extra work it takes before you paint it my ek9 is now so much nicer and stiff to drive its amazing but as said if you don't plan on ragging it then 2 inch of weld every 4 inch should be fine and take some stick.

12th January 2011, 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

the main reason theyre not welded up fully in the manufacture process, is because it would take too long thus costing more, and would cost more before you put labour times into it because of the extra materials needed to weld it properly

bedford is right in what hes saying for the process involved, but those processes are for cars that will generally have alot better susp set ups and be alot more powerful taking more abuse then the average weekend track toy...... wrc and btcc etc as said, any sort of seam welding provided the welds are decent, will provide great benefits to most cars never mind track cars, will help take alot of the strains of a fast road set up and keep the car more rigid, even more so in a track toy

very good mod to do even in the lesser form

That's exactly what I was going to reply with. Most "track" saxo's on here will only see 3 or 4 track days a year and the majority will run sub 200lb springs.

Mark will do an excellent job for whats required on a track saxo.