vtr engine tappety? UPDATE:22/03

13th March 2011, 00:36

Firstly...my new vtr has done just under 60k, with mostly full service history, although it seems to sound a bit rattly/tappety...its not very loud at all...and doesn't seem to do it on idle...although when revving it it does a little....is this just because its an 8v(my old 16v mazda didnt really do this) or could it need something? If so...are they hydraulic tappets and could i use some HLA treatment when changing oil?(when i first got the mazda it did it a little on startup occasionally...one treatment of this and it did it like once or twice in the two years i owned it.)

Secondly...what oil is best for vtr engines and would a thicker grade help the ticking? On the history there is a pre delivery inspection report thing showing 10w40 oil used, then on the 12k service it was ticked as 5w30 being used, im not too sure whats in it now but what is recommended? I was tempted to use 5w40 as its meant to be thinner when cold and thicker when warm...would this be okay?

Cheers

13th March 2011, 00:43

8vs saxos have adjustable tappets, they become noisey through abuse, usually ragging the car when cold, they can be adjusted to reduce the noise but after a certain point adustment makes no diff, 10w40 should be fine, what do you use the car for?

13th March 2011, 09:58

hmm really? Im sure this saxo was well looked after, its a members on here...it may just be me but it does sound a little tappety.

As for car use...i use it for mostly town driving, not much motorway driving and just driving about lol, i do always warm it up before setting off and when i come back i give them a minute to cool down...i know its not turbo or anything but i like to look after them

13th March 2011, 10:41

ive read the guide on how to adjust the tappets...but i have a couple of questions...when turning the engine over...how do you know when for example no.3 is fully open? Also...how to you actually adjust the tappet/valve clearance?

What i dont understand is why it doesnt seme to do it on idle but is noticable when revving?

13th March 2011, 20:16

If not, does anybody know a rough estimate for getting a garage to do it?

13th March 2011, 21:23

30 pounds

13th March 2011, 22:38

Ah thats not bad then, I'm guessing thats what you'd charge? If only I was from nearby, it was me who was gonna drop by for the parts on saturday but I never realised you closed at 12 :/

13th March 2011, 23:01

you checked the spark-plugs? mine was slightly loose, and sounded tapetty, so i assumed tappits.. but was wrong.

14th March 2011, 10:33

ahh...i'll check that when i get back mate...thanks

14th March 2011, 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by AL3X_

ive read the guide on how to adjust the tappets...but i have a couple of questions...when turning the engine over...how do you know when for example no.3 is fully open? Also...how to you actually adjust the tappet/valve clearance?

What i dont understand is why it doesnt seme to do it on idle but is noticable when revving?

Its fun to do it yourself. You can tell if a tappet is fully open as you can rock it with your fingers. Haynes descibe quite well how to do it although their manuals are carp.

What I do is undo the tappet, put the feeler blade in, then tighten the tappet lightly until it traps the feeler blade. Then lock tappet without altering the screw, then remove the blade, it should pull out with some resistance but not tight.

15th March 2011, 00:19

Ah brill, ive spoke to my mechanic hes gonna come up to mine and do it for me....i prosume I can watch so will get an idea how to do it then

thanks for the info, one thing though...could a thicker oil sort this problem as it seems to do it when the engine is warm more than cold?

15th March 2011, 10:18

you can run a thicker engine oil but its not recommended, i used to have an old fiesta which sounded like a bag of nails even after being adjusted, i put thicker oil in and it did help a bit

15th March 2011, 13:13

Sorry I didn't explain. The previous owner isn't too sure which oil rating was last used, I think the recommended oil for a vtr is 10w40? Theres a chance that 5w30 may have been used as it ticks when warm, so I was going to drain it out and put either 5w40 or 10w40 in, this should be better for the car anyway shouldnt it...and maybe make it tickk less?

15th March 2011, 16:46

10w40 is the right oil. The 40 is thickness when hot and the 10 is thickess when cold, thinner cold is supposed to be better because the oil gets to where its needed quicker when you start up

15th March 2011, 22:54

Ahh cool mate, maybe i'll try 5w-40 then, best of both worlds?

My mechanic came up and had a go at adjusting the tappets today, although when he looked at this guide:

Quote:

No.1 exaust valve fully open - adjust No.3 inlet and No.4 exhaust.

No.3 exhaust vale fully open - adjust No4 inlet and No2 exhaust.

No4 exhaust open- adjust No2 inlet and No1 exhaust.

No2 exhaust open - adjust No1 inlet and No3 exhaust.

Is this correct? Just checking you see before i start taking things apart.

Also is it easy to do? I have all the tools and moderate knowledge and a brother with more knowledge

He found that the suggested one to adjust for when one is open, the rocker arm didnt move around and the feeler guage wouldnt go into it, so he attempted it his own way that he knew.

Basically I think he did it so that when the furthest left valve on the top(intake manifold side) was down at the bottom(he said this meant the valve was fully open) then he adjusted the one down(exhaust manifold side) and to the right, as thats when the rocker arms lifted enough to get the feeler guage in...

Is this okay as it seems different to the guide to me, but i'm not that clued up on the workings of engines?

And could somebody explain which ones are exhaust and which ones are inlet tappets/valves, and which is no1,2,3,4, etc?

After he did this and we put it together it definately seemed quiter...although there was a slight similar noise still there, he had a listen and said it was coming from that rectangular box on top of the intake manifold, just behind the coilpack...he said it sounded like a valve in there? What could this be?

Is it normal for the vtr engine to be a bit ticky....i mean it definately sounds moreso than my old 16v mazda...but my mechanic says its deffo not a tappet?

Cheers

16th March 2011, 14:56

Sounds like a carp mechanic [as usual]. That box is part of the inlet manifold its just for gas flow, nowt in it. If the engine is still noisy he's not done it right or it might be a noisy injector.

Setting tappets there a 'rule of 9' for instance No1 is fully down so you set No8, for 2 down you set No7 etc. not quite sure how you number the tappets. I think you start at the left [timing belt side] 1 is inlet 2 is exhaust, then work along the cylinders, but you should be able to work it out by looking

16th March 2011, 15:02

Yep i wouldnt let that man touch your car again!

Looking at your engine from the front, the ones closest are exhaust and the ones furthest away are inlet. Left hand side where timing belt is is number one then count right.

16th March 2011, 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jungle

Yep i wouldnt let that man touch your car again!

Looking at your engine from the front, the ones closest are exhaust and the ones furthest away are inlet. Left hand side where timing belt is is number one then count right.

Why do you say this?

As for the location, so no1 is an inlet valve, then no2 is an exhaust(down and to the right) no. 3 is an inlet....al the way to 8?

Or is it the furthest 1 to 4 are inlet and the closest 1 to 4 are 1,2,3,4 exhaust valves?

And so could someone explain...if say no.1 inlet is down, what do i adjust?

And no1 exhaust is down what do i adjust? for each one please.

And as per the guide...if an exhaust valve is fully open, does that mean that the rocker arm is down as far as it will go?

Finally...am i right in thinking, when im adjusting a particular one, i should be able to push the feeler guage in and out but feel it toucing/scraping the tappet and valve its between?

17th March 2011, 12:34

Right, an update...

I've had another go today at adjusting them myself, i followed the guide and when the furthest left and closest to the slam panel rocker arm was fully down, i checked(and adjusted if need be) the one on the row furthest away from the slam panel, closest to the right except one(0.2mm), and the one on the row closest to the slam panel...furthest to the right(0.4mm)...and so on for the rest...

Is this the correct way? I did it after leaving the car overnight...so was definately cold....after doing it i started the car and from cold it seemed poerfect...no ticking what so ever, once warmed up and I went for a drive however it was there...its not exactly loud...can only hear if revving at a standstil with head out of the window...when driving along though it isnt noticable over the induction kit/exhaust..

So...what is the problem?
-I haven't done it correctly(im sure I followed the guide fine.)
-Do VTRs have a slight ticking naturally? It deffo does sound to come from by the intake manifold but it could be resonating from the tappets?
-Maybe the oil in it is too thin?

I'm gonna have another go at them in the morning when the engines cold but I cant think what I have done wrong...

17th March 2011, 22:12

I was just speaking to another mechanic, who told me on these engines, number one is on the right hand side?

He also said something about if your adjusting no1 inlet, no2 exhaust has to be up or something like that?

Any clarification as I cant understand why its still doing it after following the guide?

20th March 2011, 22:45

Any ideas people?

Maybe I should adjust them to what a member on here said, 0.2 inlet and 0.3 exhaust when warm rather than 0.2 and 0.4 when cold?

Either that or am I doing it in the wrong order or something :/

20th March 2011, 22:54

Cylinder 1 is at the gearbox end of the engine. 0.20mm and 0.40mm with a cold engine should be fine - they are the clearances stated in the Haynes (there's a good guide in there for adjusting the tappets).

There is a knack to doing them imo - I tried a few times with my VTR and couldn't get them right. In the end, a garage charged me ~£35 to adjust them - they were spot on then.

20th March 2011, 23:21

Ah really? So no.1 exhaust valve is on the gearbox side? I have been working it as the other way...although if you think about it it still works out like you are adjusting the correct ones if you count the cylinder nearest the cambelt as no. 1

As for knack to doing it, I did get a mechanic to do it first time round, although he did say he hadn't done them in years :/

I may have another attempt at it tuesday, and start from the opposite side...although I don't think it will make any difference?
Am I right in thinking exhaust valves are closes tot slam panel/exhaust manifold and inlet valves are closest to windscreen/inlet mani?

21st March 2011, 23:25

This as much of a mystery to you lot as it is me lol?

22nd March 2011, 19:04

Right I have checkled and double checked them, but there is still a ticking noise?

I have done it the order mentioned but I assuyme it all works out the same whether you start from left or right?

I have read a couple of posts on here saying that they have adjusted theirs to below spec, or that another method is adjusting them to 02 inlet 0.3 exhaust when warm. I could try this but how do I know if the gaps are too small?

The noise itself is either coming from the tappets or the inlet box behind or around there, I have checked the spark plugs which are all tight, do the VTRs have quite loudly ticking injectors anyway or could these have a problem?
Cheers

23rd March 2011, 23:59

might be the big end bearings, i fucked them on my focus was quiet at tick over but started rattling at 3.5k rpm or higher, unlikely though if you havent let it get low on oil.

24th March 2011, 00:01

I doubt it mate, well I hope not anyway...I think the mechanic would have picked that up nah?

I've adjusted them to the 0.2 0.3 when warm spec and they seem quiter, not perfect but may need some slight tweaking?

24th March 2011, 01:20

hey AL3X_ do you have facebook, ive recently done my valve clearances and could talk you through it if you like?

24th March 2011, 01:27

the exhaust valves are the 4 at the most frontal point on the engine (exhaust manifold side) and the inlet valves are the 4 on the opposite side (inlet manifold side)

most citroen and peugeot engines including all saxo's and 106's have the exact same engine layout...obviously slightly different for 16v

in your engine however piston 1 is the piston on the flywheel side (right side when looking head on..side where the battery is) and piston 4 is the opposite side (side where the ECU is)

you should probably get a haynes manual for the order as at first sight it seems a bit random..
when cranking the engine by hand you should be looking for the pistons to be at bottom dead centre..so keep cranking until they reach the lowest point..they should remain there for a few mm of cranking so its pretty easy to tell.

then obviously you must alter the clearance on one exhaust valve and one inlet valve.

to adjust the clearance like a previous poster said you will need a very small socket (unsure on the exact size) and a spanner (again unsure on the size) then you need to loosen off the locking nut and adjust the clearance using the socket...when the correct clearance is achieved (using the filer gauges to measure) lock the locking nut back up

hope this helps..i apologise if my advice is too late lol!

24th March 2011, 01:28

oh and also it might be worth checking if the vehicle has a standard or aftermarket camshaft as the aftermarket ones will require different valve clearances.

24th March 2011, 10:28

Thats very helpful mate, thankyou.

whats different to the way i've done it is i used cylinder one as being nearest the ecu and 4 as being nearest the battery, will this make a difference as if you work it out its still the same valves you adjust together?

Cheers

24th March 2011, 10:40

glad i could help

do you know if you have the standard cams in your car?

erm the only difference is really that if you do it in the correct it takes a lot less time as your'e cranking the engine in its firing order..whereas if you do it the other way round you've got to crank the engine 3 times for every set of clearances you do..in order to get the correct piston to BDC

did you manage to get it done alright?

24th March 2011, 11:00

i was just reading back over this post and if number one piston is at BDC then you wont be adjusting the clearance on number 1 inlet and exhaust valve...it'll be something like 3 inlet and 4 exhaust..obviously the valves also work effectively backwards (1 at battery side and 4 at ECU side)

27th March 2011, 23:23

how do you mean mate?

The way i did it was when no1 exhaust rocker arm was fully down i adjusted number 3 inlet and 4 exhaust if that makes sense?

But the way i did it was treating number 1 at ecu side? So when the exhaust one closest to the ecu was down i adjusted the inlet valve second closest to the battery and exhaust valve closest to the battery? I think thats the opposite u but urely it works as that would work out to your method as when number 4 exhaust is down id be adjusting 2 inlet and 1 exhaust which is right no?

And yeah i've got standard cams as far as im aware mate.

28th March 2011, 16:20

boring...my 2000 1.4 engine was tappy, put a 2002 1.6 in and thats tappy aswell, dosent bother me tho lol

28th March 2011, 21:17

wats boring lol? Thats the thing mate, its something that really irritates me it just sounts a bit tinny, like I say i've done them to the spec apparently recommended by GMC of 0.2 0.3 when warm and they do seem quiter now, I just dunno why the Haynes manual recommends different?

29th March 2011, 12:39

fair enough, i would probably take it to a better known garage and get them to do it for you maybe, then if it still does it then your going to have to live with it unfortunately

3rd April 2011, 21:08

Like I say mate its pretty much quiet now, its just I wanna be sure theyre okay at gmcs spec.

3rd April 2011, 23:13

are you using the correct grade of oil? as this can help stop the tapping getting worse... when was it last serviced/oil change? as a clogged oil filter will reduce oil pressure to cause wear on the tappets/camshaft lobs.

on an old (p-reg) rover 214si that we had it was tapping like mad, the tappets were slightly worn, so when it came to service time flushed the engine and then filled it with slightly thicker oil for diesels(petrol engine) and it helped quieten it down..

also on my old 1985 golf one of the tappets had got stuck and made a loud ticking noise and down on power, after an oil and filter change and switch to a mineral based oil then semi-syntec based oil, it still sounded the same so took it for a spirited drive and it worked and running fine.

3rd April 2011, 23:15

Mine does the same thing, tappets are fine, slight ticking noise, try some ZX-1, maby will help the engine, did wonders for mine.

4th April 2011, 00:41

Yeah i'm using 5w-40 mate, only just changed it as well.

Cheers Thrush, like I say its pretty much quiet, I just wanna ensure the spec for the clearances is fine.