Brakes upgrade to stop my vtr ??

10th May 2011, 22:18

Right guys. I have been thinking about upgrading my brakes for quite awhile now. I'm waiting on insurance to get back to me to get something else however the main reason I want the saxo gone is the brakes scared me. And no I don't drive like w clueless twat but just when you have to emergency stop they lock and slide.

What's the best upgrade do to improve the brakes to work bait quicker without spending £££££ on 4pots brembros etc.

I have 16" wheels spaced by 20mil all round

All thanks in advance

No stupid spamming wank answers please

10th May 2011, 22:20

If they are locking and sliding then it will still do that with bigger brakes.
You need to control weight transfer better - ie better suspension and fit better tyres with a superior friction co-efficient so theres better traction with the road surface.

10th May 2011, 22:21

266mm from what I have read is the best brake upgrade to go for, in terms of compromise between performance and cost. Bigger setup, with less unsprung weight compared to the gti6 set up. Get them running with a good pad + disc combo, and from what I read they are really good. Plus they still fit under 14's if you ever wanted to go back to that route, hence my decision to get them.

10th May 2011, 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

If they are locking and sliding then it will still do that with bigger brakes.
You need to control weight transfer better - ie better suspension and fit better tyres with a superior friction co-efficient so theres better traction with the road surface.

O yeah I know lol I run very wide wheels etc which doesn't help but the brakes are crap in general I just want something to give me a better stoping distance

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanielT92

266mm from what I have read is the best brake upgrade to go for, in terms of compromise between performance and cost. Bigger setup, with less unsprung weight compared to the gti6 set up. Get them running with a good pad + disc combo, and from what I read they are really good. Plus they still fit under 14's if you ever wanted to go back to that route, hence my decision to get them.

Ok mate what car do they normally run on ?? Cheers

10th May 2011, 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ-K

Ok mate what car do they normally run on ?? Cheers

Either lower spec 306's or berlingo vans.

10th May 2011, 22:43

Post I found a while back off this thread, which was very helpful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by db_sax

I asked this question ages ago and now had experience of both.

You probs know some of what il say but for poeple that dont..

266mm bosche calipers are the ones to get with better pads and wider discs. You can also get lucas and theyre perfectly fine too tbh.

283 GTI6 and GTI180 are both heavy setups, and belive me the GTI180 are stoooopidly heavy and therefore more rotational mass which isnt really worth the penalty for having the larger 283 setup over the 266.

266 are the better setup on the saxo with a great improvment over the standard without being too heavy.

Either setup id run with the 23mm MC. Im running GTI180s with standard (well was before it came off the road) and it was fine, took abit of getting used to...abit like when you brake on a bike and you keep moving because the brakes dont work lol. But when they do bite theyre hench!

Only advantage of the 283 setups in my mind is if you're going to be doing high speeds or regulary braking from a high speed.

My verdict would be the 266mm Bosche Calipers off the later models - Standard saxo brakes were a waste of time being fitted when they could have fitted 266mm as said before the standard saxo size brakes are false economics.

10th May 2011, 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ-K

O yeah I know lol I run very wide wheels etc which doesn't help but the brakes are crap in general I just want something to give me a better stoping distance

well then you need to understand what the problem is. Its not your brakes. You are locking up which means your brakes are more capable than other parts of your car. People will mindlessly tell you to just buy larger discs and some different calipers but they will only change the effort at the pedal end. We are not having an issue with heat capacity either.

Kev

10th May 2011, 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

well then you need to understand what the problem is. Its not your brakes. You are locking up which means your brakes are more capable than other parts of your car. People will mindlessly tell you to just buy larger discs and some different calipers but they will only change the effort at the pedal end. We are not having an issue with heat capacity either.

Kev

Surely it is still worth the upgrade to a bigger caliper and disc? Out of interest, how would you counteract the problem of locking up that AJ-K is having? Would it just be a case of having better tyres and suspension set up like you posted in your previous post?

10th May 2011, 23:04

as said the brakes dont sound like the problem. Get some better tyres which have a better grip on the road. sliding out can be a number of things aswell. ie. tyre pressure, bias valve, weight distribution, suspension

and tbh if you had a 266mm setup, i doubt the insurers will even notice

10th May 2011, 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanielT92

Surely it is still worth the upgrade to a bigger caliper and disc? Out of interest, how would you counteract the problem of locking up that AJ-K is having? Would it just be a case of having better tyres and suspension set up like you posted in your previous post?

I was always told to stop a car fast the brakes should be the last thing to look at.
Get the car lighter, making it easier to slow its inertia, get the suspension sorted to stop weight transfer moving forward under braking and over loading the front tyres or under utilising the rear. Get the tyres sorted. What ultimately stops the car is the friction between the road and the tyre. A softer compound will have a higher friction level and stop the car quicker. Its why stopping distance will increase when it rains..
Big brakes are primarily about heat capacity. A larger disc can absorb more heat, keeping the pads at a more optimum temperature. Larger pads allow them to cool quicker. 4 pot calipers will give better pedal feel etc.
If you can get the friction co-efficient high enough (like with slicks) then the original brakes may not be able to provide enough pressure to lock the brakes. Thats really when a drastically different brake setup is needed.
Things like performance brake pads can help improve things slightly but we are talking more about the compounds providing that maximum effort before the brakes lock as traction is overcome.
Changing all the master cylinders, calipers and discs can alter how far you press your foot on the pedal etc, but its going to be a marginal gain whatever unless the heat capacity of the standard brake setup is overcome.

Hope this makes sense as its rather late to get my thoughts straight with all this.
Kev

11th May 2011, 07:51

I can totally understand what's being said but I'm not able to change the car that much. Im just after something to stop me bait quicker without having to jump on the pedal lol
Thinking bigger discs and calipers would do that for me but what setup should I go for and should I / need to upgrade the master cylinder??

11th May 2011, 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanielT92

266mm from what I have read is the best brake upgrade to go for, in terms of compromise between performance and cost. Bigger setup, with less unsprung weight compared to the gti6 set up. Get them running with a good pad + disc combo, and from what I read they are really good. Plus they still fit under 14's if you ever wanted to go back to that route, hence my decision to get them.

How much did you pick yours up for Daniel?

11th May 2011, 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ-K

I can totally understand what's being said but I'm not able to change the car that much. Im just after something to stop me bait quicker without having to jump on the pedal lol
Thinking bigger discs and calipers would do that for me but what setup should I go for and should I / need to upgrade the master cylinder??

You've completely ignored what (IMO) one of the top 5 most knowledgeable members on the whole forum said to you...

If youre locking the brakes, it's not the brakes that are the problem. if the brakes didnt slow / lock then you'd have a problem...

tyres can make a MASSIVE difference with braking, in some cases, the distance between good and bad tyres will be over 10 meters from the same speed!

i'd assume you've not got ABS if theyre locking and sliding? if not, then install ABS (not sure if it's easy to do?!)

maybe adjust your driving style? slamming on will obviously cause the brakes to lock easily...

if youre that concerned about the actual brakes, just put some good pads, discs and fluid in there, that will give you more confidence in the brakes and the performance of them will improve

but ultimately, as kev/graham said; the brakes aren't the problem, and bigger brakes won't stop them locking...

11th May 2011, 10:04

I think really he wants the justification to buy bigger brakes.

Your brakes are locking, meaning maximum braking force has been applied. You cannot increase it further without changing the chassis, tyres or the road surface

11th May 2011, 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashleyp

i'd assume you've not got ABS if theyre locking and sliding? if not, then install ABS (not sure if it's easy to do?!)

ABS increases braking distance but gives you steering control so maybe not what he is looking for

11th May 2011, 22:39

Dunno about anyone else but the brakes on my vtr are more than capable... thats with standard vtr wheels and budget pads! Ive had them stinking and they still stopped, need a timg bit of heat to them for best effect but thats normal. If youre locking the wheels, then your tyres are shite. Ive had mine throwing me through the window without a sign of lockup!

If you had problems with them fading, then better compounds or a bigger setup is needed. As kamracing said, its all down to the tyres

11th May 2011, 22:50

same tbh, some decent pads discs and fluid on my standard 8v and theyve never failed on me

11th May 2011, 22:56

have a full brembo setup for sale??

11th May 2011, 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

I was always told to stop a car fast the brakes should be the last thing to look at.
Get the car lighter, making it easier to slow its inertia, get the suspension sorted to stop weight transfer moving forward under braking and over loading the front tyres or under utilising the rear. Get the tyres sorted. What ultimately stops the car is the friction between the road and the tyre. A softer compound will have a higher friction level and stop the car quicker. Its why stopping distance will increase when it rains..
Big brakes are primarily about heat capacity. A larger disc can absorb more heat, keeping the pads at a more optimum temperature. Larger pads allow them to cool quicker. 4 pot calipers will give better pedal feel etc.
If you can get the friction co-efficient high enough (like with slicks) then the original brakes may not be able to provide enough pressure to lock the brakes. Thats really when a drastically different brake setup is needed.
Things like performance brake pads can help improve things slightly but we are talking more about the compounds providing that maximum effort before the brakes lock as traction is overcome.
Changing all the master cylinders, calipers and discs can alter how far you press your foot on the pedal etc, but its going to be a marginal gain whatever unless the heat capacity of the standard brake setup is overcome.

Hope this makes sense as its rather late to get my thoughts straight with all this.
Kev

Interesting read, I always look forward to post's of knowledgeable members, like Ashley P said. Plus half the stuff I guess people just by pass thinking about problems of locking up, myself included. So it's always handy to read and learn

11th May 2011, 22:59

ive got some evo 5 brembo calipers and discs no idea if they will fit a saxo but they will stop you dead ,but youll need 17 inch wheels as they wont fit otherwise

11th May 2011, 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by SimbaVTR

How much did you pick yours up for Daniel?

I payed £30 delivered for my 266's. They are not fitted yet as they are in need of a refurb. I suggest you PM Mikol if your after some 266's

11th May 2011, 23:55

Out of interest people, i've got VTS wheels wrapped in Yoko S drives, and I had mine locking up and sliding to the left when I slammed on for an ambulance round a blind corner, whats the problem here?

12th May 2011, 01:22

8ive got 300 bhp, struggle to get power down so you know what, iam going to tune me engine to 350bhp, that should do it.

12th May 2011, 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by AL3X_

Out of interest people, i've got VTS wheels wrapped in Yoko S drives, and I had mine locking up and sliding to the left when I slammed on for an ambulance round a blind corner, whats the problem here?

I dont know anything about the tyres, but road camber, surface condition and the balance of the car are all massive contributors to how a car reacts under braking, as well as the driver imputs...

12th May 2011, 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by AL3X_

Out of interest people, i've got VTS wheels wrapped in Yoko S drives, and I had mine locking up and sliding to the left when I slammed on for an ambulance round a blind corner, whats the problem here?

because you were turning. i've had mine almost sideways when a van wandered into my lane on a corner!

12th May 2011, 15:43

your all overlooking one massive influence here, the rear brake compensator! if the cars lowered or the compensators seized the rear brake bias will be more than wanted! it will unbalance the car on turn in then the back will wander and thats when you shit your pants.
most track cars of low weight run very very little rear braking!!!!!

12th May 2011, 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by tillygti6

your all overlooking one massive influence here, the rear brake compensator! if the cars lowered or the compensators seized the rear brake bias will be more than wanted! it will unbalance the car on turn in then the back will wander and thats when you shit your pants.
most track cars of low weight run very very little rear braking!!!!!

IIRC the standard balance is only about 20% braking force to the back, but thats a waste.

Rear brakes are pretty much (certainly drum brakes) purly for the hand brake

12th May 2011, 16:51

its generally 60-40 split, but as the cars are lowered the valve thinks the car has more people in hence greater pressure. and seldom are they cleaned/serviced.
my moneys on the rear compensator, but then what do i know.......

12th May 2011, 17:44

^ brake bias valve? or is that something completely different?

I think when mine was done the lad adjusted it so it was less influence over the rear brakes.

12th May 2011, 17:56

same thing different name basiclly, however the bias valves generally only deal with a single line and the compensators often self regulate one or more lines. they should be adjusted and kept an eye on. a couple of circuits i play on would always catch the brakes out, causing the rears to lock at an inopertune moment, gforce camber and entry speed all effect the standard job.

8th June 2011, 23:42

This sounds like it may be my problem, as tonight slamming on in the wet the car slid towards the side of the road, whilst my steering was straight, my car is lowered 60mm on the back with a sub in the boot, what do I need to do to the bias valve to sort the problem so if it does lock up it at least goes in a straight line?

Cheers

9th June 2011, 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

I was always told to stop a car fast the brakes should be the last thing to look at.
Get the car lighter, making it easier to slow its inertia, get the suspension sorted to stop weight transfer moving forward under braking and over loading the front tyres or under utilising the rear. Get the tyres sorted. What ultimately stops the car is the friction between the road and the tyre. A softer compound will have a higher friction level and stop the car quicker. Its why stopping distance will increase when it rains..
Big brakes are primarily about heat capacity. A larger disc can absorb more heat, keeping the pads at a more optimum temperature. Larger pads allow them to cool quicker. 4 pot calipers will give better pedal feel etc.
If you can get the friction co-efficient high enough (like with slicks) then the original brakes may not be able to provide enough pressure to lock the brakes. Thats really when a drastically different brake setup is needed.
Things like performance brake pads can help improve things slightly but we are talking more about the compounds providing that maximum effort before the brakes lock as traction is overcome.
Changing all the master cylinders, calipers and discs can alter how far you press your foot on the pedal etc, but its going to be a marginal gain whatever unless the heat capacity of the standard brake setup is overcome.

Hope this makes sense as its rather late to get my thoughts straight with all this.
Kev

very interesting that

thanks.