vtr turbo playing up!

1. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

   #1 19th June 2011, 22:39

   right might be a bit of a read but bet get the scene set!
   
   having some issues with the vtr turbo at present, advice/ideas needed
   
   the car has a slight "miss" occasioanally, which ive put down to ecu, now happens quite regular and everytime i start the car if i dont let it idle for about 5 mins plus as soon as i try to drive and hit a certain part of the rev range i misses, not worried me as i need a firmaware update i was hpoing would solve this
   
   now, last night i got the car up to 120mph and it just seemed to lose all power, nothing, like the boost had dis-appeared, let off, back on it seemed to even out
   
   tonight i went out and the car was very missy playing about, restrictive alot as above when acclerating, and doing what it did last night, to the point i was playing with a lad i know in a cupra, and it lost all power totally, hazards on etc, about 500yards later i played throttle a bit still in 5th it seemed to pull, dropped into 4th and back into 3rd as was doing about 40mph up hill by this point it seemed to pull well,
   
   nursed it a bit further along it seemed to be ok again, got a bit futher on and decicded to play a little more and see if it happened again, it did hesitate a little but not die
   
   parked up a while and then went to go home, tried it again and about 70ish harsh acceleartion it started playing up again,
   
   so i havea few ideas and would like opinions/thougts if you please, as more i think about it im not sure the "miss" is related to the running issues it has
   
   1) overboosting
   2) ecu issues
   3) dump valve is too weak/sticking open
   
   anything else? and does anyone know if the pred even has overboost fuel cut?
2. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

   #2 19th June 2011, 22:46

   right, established the pred does have overboost fuel cut... but is it overboosting
3. Sophia_Bush Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2007 Shropshire Posts: 9994 Moonstone Blue 106 GTi

   #3 19th June 2011, 22:48

   strange even when i upped mine a little it didn't miss never had the sudden brick wall effect your describing tho, I would get the firmware update done first and check/swap sensors if poss as yours is pretty much a hybrid of parts lol if it seems fine then only does it at certain points I would say sensor of some sort
   
   for overboosting you got gauge? if so does it hold boost or does it jump at a certain point suddenly
4. tweeqd Established Member Joined: Mar 2006 Farnham Surrey Posts: 1542 AX GT 16v turbo 6 speed with NOS 205 gti6 E 320

   #4 19th June 2011, 22:52

   what map sensor are you using?
5. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

   #5 19th June 2011, 22:54

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by Sophia_Bush strange even when i upped mine a little it didn't miss never had the sudden brick wall effect your describing tho, I would get the firmware update done first and check/swap sensors if poss as yours is pretty much a hybrid of parts lol if it seems fine then only does it at certain points I would say sensor of some sort for overboosting you got gauge? if so does it hold boost or does it jump at a certain point suddenly

   got gauge but dont know how accurate it is, stock actuator should be 10psi on that turbo, pred measures .7bar through MAP, which is about right, gauge reads 13psi on boost normally.. BUT ive not been able to notice the presure when the issues arise as ive been more concerned of the problem and where i could safley stop
   
   as for sensors it could well be on miss?, currently in contact with andy, going to get some data loggingdone tommorow night... try catch the probs and relay the info to Andy, see if he can fathom it out from whats on the system
6. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

   #6 19th June 2011, 22:55

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by tweeqd what map sensor are you using?

   pred has built in MAP sensor and ecu is configured to run this
7. Sophia_Bush Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2007 Shropshire Posts: 9994 Moonstone Blue 106 GTi

   #7 19th June 2011, 23:02

   weirdly you know the crank sensor the plug for it is shit and is known to break off snap wires or comes loose, I would just check it to rule it out. Need someone in car with you for a bit just to see what the gauge is doing when this problem happens
   
   iirc the inbuilt map sensor is good for about 2.5bar isn't?
8. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

   #8 19th June 2011, 23:04

   checked those wires and put a new sensor on when i put the engine in mate, pretty sure its 2.5 bar yeah... but if its a faulty sensor
9. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

   #9 19th June 2011, 23:16

   right, after having a quick look at my ecu map, andy sas there is no overboost fuel cut set on the map, so if it is overboosting, its not the fuel cut causing the power loss/problems, but it could still be the wastegate equalising the pressure iirc this is possible?
10. scot-ish Established Member Joined: Apr 2009 just aroon the corner Posts: 1509 Audi S5, Corsa, Defender 90 CSW

    #10 19th June 2011, 23:23

    do you have a FPR fitted? i would check your fuel filter/fuel lines. sounds like its not gettin fuel cut, but when there is a demand for fuel, its lacking power.
    
    where is this fuel cut come from? does the ecu have fuel cut? standard car doesn? and the Pred ecu should not allow a fuel cut unless its been mapped for it as you've said.
    
    when you say the car lost all power/hazards on. did you mean lost all electrical power??
11. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #11 19th June 2011, 23:30

    car is running stock FPR, the pred does have an overboost fuel cut protector, but it isnt set, so shoudnt/wont have cut the fuel, when i was acclelerating ard the car just lost all power, i had to stick the hazards on as i thought the engine had popped
    
    it took a few second but id lost massive momentum by then, and was still in 5th, so mayeb didnt realise the "re-power"straight off, no lights were on the dash, so ignition doesnt seem to have been lost in terms of the full ignition system, but either the fuel/boost/ingition wasnt there at that point for whatever reason
    
    i dont see any way it can be engine related, as it still runs as it did, and if not driving hard doesnt drive any different, still the occasional light miss but has done that since a day or two after mapping
    
    so it has to be ecu/sensor/turbo/fuel related
12. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #12 19th June 2011, 23:33

    what has concerned me is the "miss", it does the same miss when your burn written data to the ecu during mapping, like the ecu forget to run the engine while you burn it
    
    this is the same miss its done since the mapping, which is what makes me thinkis it the miss cutting car while driving hard? and causing the massive loss in power?
13. scot-ish Established Member Joined: Apr 2009 just aroon the corner Posts: 1509 Audi S5, Corsa, Defender 90 CSW

    #13 19th June 2011, 23:37

    are you running an uprated fuel pump? which way are you fueling? 5th injector?
    
    does it happen everytime you boost to a certain level?
    
    its hard to gues over a forum without sitting in the car.
    
    i would check actuator arm, pull on it, there should be plenty of tension in it, if not, this is first problem, could be a cracked wastegate seat, if your internal?
    
    i wouldnt try to boost again, my guess is fuel is to lean when you overbost, this will cause alot of problems if done too many times.
14. Sophia_Bush Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2007 Shropshire Posts: 9994 Moonstone Blue 106 GTi

    #14 20th June 2011, 00:04

    give the mapper a buzz?
15. tom_lloyd_4 Regular Poster Joined: Nov 2010 alton hampshire Posts: 348 97 mk1 vtr 85 LR 90

    #15 20th June 2011, 01:06

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by scot-ish are you running an uprated fuel pump? which way are you fueling? 5th injector? does it happen everytime you boost to a certain level? its hard to gues over a forum without sitting in the car. i would check actuator arm, pull on it, there should be plenty of tension in it, if not, this is first problem, could be a cracked wastegate seat, if your internal? i wouldnt try to boost again, my guess is fuel is to lean when you overbost, this will cause alot of problems if done too many times.

    wot dus this do don't think ive seen a used turbo that dosnt have a hairline crack in the wastegate?
16. maddison_vts Established Member Joined: Sep 2008 Torbay Posts: 1565 2000 phase 2 Saxo VTS Turbo 2000 Nissan 200sx S14a

    #16 20th June 2011, 03:28

    it sounds like a fuel pump problem to me but here are a few suggestions...
    
    crank position sensor caused mine to stutter a lot, i changed it for the different one and it sorted it.
    
    fuel surge? run it with more than half a tank of fuel then see how it goes.
    
    check your fuel pump it sounds pretty much identical issues a friend of mine had in his 106 gti, it turned out to be a screwed fuel pump. He tried everything before eventually checking the pump!
    
    hope you sort it bud
17. maddison_vts Established Member Joined: Sep 2008 Torbay Posts: 1565 2000 phase 2 Saxo VTS Turbo 2000 Nissan 200sx S14a

    #17 20th June 2011, 03:37

    also, if it was over boosting you would here it pinking before you lose power and tbf if you lost power through over boosting it would be a miracle to not melt something and if you did that would be obvious immediately and you say its running fine?
    
    my actuator pipe split completely once allowing it to boost to whatever it wanted. it pinked loudly and i saw the boost guage had shot up pretty dam quickly. i didn't get any loss of power. i backed off immediately and sorted the pipe out and i was lucky i had no damage. if you were overboosting repeatedly i'd say its a safe bet that something would have let go by now.
18. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #18 20th June 2011, 19:10

    cheers for the input so far ppl, going to try gwet the firmware updated tommorow night and go out and try some data logging, work and back today the car seemed fine other thenit usual miss on start up, couldnt really try opening it up a little as it barely gets warm i live so close
    
    but cheer maddison, have considered it could have been fuelling, fuel surge could well have been it, in totall from all the above happening i was only driving about 35 mins or so, and on the way home the fuel light came on, also alot of the playing was up hill, but this doesnt explain why it did it the night before when i had a fair wahck more fuel in.. however this was also up a quite steep hill
    
    once ive got some data logging done we may be a little closer to seeing whats happening, as for the pinking ive not heard it and as you rightly pointed out, on a boosted car for it to pink it be a miracle it didnt bend a rod or melt a piston/valve, but theres no saying it definatley would be pining on overboost either
19. Sophia_Bush Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2007 Shropshire Posts: 9994 Moonstone Blue 106 GTi

    #19 20th June 2011, 20:44

    now you mention the low fuel thing when mine used to be low on fuel it didn't feel as fast still went but was lacking a tiny bit.
20. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #20 20th June 2011, 20:55

    im hoping its something as simple as this lots of juice>update>data logging, hopefully will return some usefull info
21. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #21 21st June 2011, 21:04

    right, just done a quick logging session... yet to see the results, but never got it to do the same again
    
    it did missfire twice during driving, so maybe abe to get to the bottom of that, if it doesnt do it any more its looking more then likely it was a fuel surge/lack of fuel
    
    narrowband did put out some random AFR's at certain point only for split seconds.. thik it even got a 17 when i let off on the way up a slip road
    
    but can say it didnt appear to overboost at any point tonight... but there again i never encountered the same prob
    
    also burned a type R
22. scot-ish Established Member Joined: Apr 2009 just aroon the corner Posts: 1509 Audi S5, Corsa, Defender 90 CSW

    #22 21st June 2011, 21:19

    narrowband isny worth reading mate, you need wideband to have any idea of whats going on.
23. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #23 21st June 2011, 21:25

    i know theyre pretty useless mate,shouldnt really be any issues but well have to see, i THINK the injector duty is running about 75% at most, but still not seen the logging session so is just what i noticed on driving, so its looking like ill need bigger injctors to up the boost, as even if i up the FP im not gonne get enough to safely run 15psi from being on 10 now
24. scot-ish Established Member Joined: Apr 2009 just aroon the corner Posts: 1509 Audi S5, Corsa, Defender 90 CSW

    #24 22nd June 2011, 23:32

    think clio 182 injectors fit in there? not sure what cc they are though.
25. Mathias Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2008 Pembrokeshire Posts: 5598

    #25 22nd June 2011, 23:41

    i'll have some 490cc injectors for sale in a few weeks - straight fit
26. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #26 23rd June 2011, 09:16

    the 182 injectors are smaller then my current ones m8, how much andy?
27. luthor1 Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802

    #27 23rd June 2011, 09:31

    Your car ran up to the around 85% on the duty cycle at just shy of 7,000rpm and 174kPA (0.74bar of boost, 10.73psi).
    
    What FPR and Injector size are you using?

    1 user thanked this post: blackie_2k5
28. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #28 23rd June 2011, 18:13

    stock FPR on vtr is 3.5 iirc? or is it 4bar? cant remember now? but its stock so ive got room for movement there anyway
    
    theyre 337cc/min but im pretty sure thats at a higher FP then im running, theyre bosch 804's
    
    you notice anything out of the ordinary on the data logs andy?
    
    EDIT- that shows a little overboost from what it "should" be running, but id imagine its been like that since mapping...or maybe was slightly overboosting as expected when being quick with the throttle???