need help from turbo people

7th July 2011, 12:12

i have just started to fit all my turbo stuff,on to my vts and i have come to a problem my car now idles like it is camed here is some vids just to show you sorry but no sound please help

i havent fitted the 5th injector and mf2 yet would this be causing the problem

7th July 2011, 12:15

no sound is no good,

check for air leaks, youve fitted alot of extra pipe, remove and clean the icv, check the crank shaft sensor and wiring

how long since it last run? has it had an egine rebuild? did it have issues before?

youve not given us much info, not being funny but i dont see how ppl expect help with these type of threads when youve told us nothing about the car/build

7th July 2011, 12:18

there is sound...thats a very precise miss youve got...

remove and clean the crankshaft sensor and check all the wires around it

7th July 2011, 12:26

the head had been taken off for the double gasket and every thing was reseald up.there are no air leaks and i have taken the icv out and cleaned i havent done the crank sensor yet though. the engine was running fine befor i put all the turbo stuff on

7th July 2011, 12:32

are you sure your not a tooth out on the timing of one of the cams? thats a very precise miss...it repeats in sync evrytime

are the cams still marked to standard timing?

7th July 2011, 12:36

one cam pully broke when getting it off but i had another set spare so i put on on do you think it could be that

7th July 2011, 12:38

were the pulleys standard ones? and where they adjusted to the standard marks, on the pulley itself?

7th July 2011, 12:40

yea they are standard both seats i have.and wasnt ajusted at all,i just used the locking pin on it

7th July 2011, 12:45

hmmmm very odd that one

7th July 2011, 12:49

how do i know if the pullys are in there standard position, as i will check make sure the person befor hasnt tuched the pullys.

7th July 2011, 13:03

the pulleys have 3 bolts on them,

behind the bolts on the rear piece of the pulley is a "slot", the bolt heads id have thought should be pretty much in the middle of the "slot" looking straight at them, if its in standard timing, then you can advance or retard as your timing dictates

but ive not had much experience on the 16v so im not 100% on their position as standard,but thats pretty much how it should be really? may be best waiting for confirmation from another member

BUT, you could alway remove the cam cover and take a phot of both pulleys and post it in here, that should help some what, for lumpy idle its normally the exhaust cam iirc?

7th July 2011, 13:08

sounds identical to my motor when the map sensor wire broke, isee you have got an 8v map sensor on there,
id check that out,

7th July 2011, 13:12

yeah^^ id get that checkd ASAP, driving a turbo car with no MAP mean bang instantly

and youll need a boost MAP sensor for the mf2...or again BOOM

7th July 2011, 13:15

also, any chance of some more pics of the install please, ive got the same manifold, just alot less space.......

7th July 2011, 13:26

i just went and had a look and all the bolts on the pullys are in the middle of the hole

7th July 2011, 13:31

i have a 3 bar map sensor on it thats what it is pluged in to

7th July 2011, 13:35

sure youve got it wired up correctly?

7th July 2011, 13:38

yea all the colous match

7th July 2011, 13:41

unplug it and i bet it will still be the same.dont rev it though.

7th July 2011, 13:41

its really frustrating me

7th July 2011, 13:42

i unpluged it and the engine was still running.wear normaly if i did it the engine would die

7th July 2011, 13:51

thats because the sensor your using isnt either recognised by the ecu, of the wires broken further down the loom or because the ecu just doesnt understand boost???

i havnt done my conversion yet so im certainly not qualified to give a detailed explanation but one way or another the map is your problem/ or part of it.

7th July 2011, 14:49

right just went and clened the crank sensor and i took the chock block out of the map sensor and solderd it up properly,i have changed the coil pack and plugs to but still nothing

7th July 2011, 14:51

have you checked the loom further back as mine was broken under the heatwrap stuff from the factory. if its still hunting then the ecu isnt getting a signal, or a signal it understands.

7th July 2011, 14:53

but it was all good befor i put all the turbo stuff on it there was nothing wrong with the car

7th July 2011, 15:03

what is it off? colours matching dont really make much diff as dif cars use diff colours

7th July 2011, 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by karenv

but it was all good befor i put all the turbo stuff on it there was nothing wrong with the car

yes but the MAP sensor is what dictate how much air/vacuum is in the manifold to help determine how much fuel is injected to keep/make the car run

if its not working or getting a signal as tillygti6 sais, its not going to run right

7th July 2011, 15:11

it is off this loom

7th July 2011, 15:11

but its brand new and newver used till i put it on

7th July 2011, 15:21

??? you said it was 3 bar? saxos dont come with 3 bar MAP sensors? they only read vacuum, not positive pressure?

7th July 2011, 15:44

you have to get a upgraded map sensor dont you as you cant use the standard one. i have just put the original one on and the car runs fine

7th July 2011, 15:46

sorted then, couldnt mistake that hunting. it caused me a good week of headache!
cant advise a solution though for another sensor though.......

7th July 2011, 15:49

that has really pi** me off cos it cost me a fortune £70 and it dont work

7th July 2011, 15:52

well the sensor probably works fine, just not with your setup.

ive got a predator ecu, with built in map for boost. not sure actually how the sensor is actually different though,

7th July 2011, 15:56

yea i wont have the money for a preditor till december can i drive it on the standard map

7th July 2011, 15:58

i doubt it will run very well, if atall? i imagine it will go slightly mental when it comes on boost?
personally id be inclined to get the 5th injector and mf2 sorted asap,to save potential damage.

7th July 2011, 16:08

dont run it on stock map itll blow up, it wont read the bost and so wont get anymore fuel

it may just be the way youve wired it up

most ppl use similar to this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-5-bar-MAP-Se...item20bab62f1f

7th July 2011, 17:04

how can i test it the map sensor.this is the one i got

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWNX:IT

7th July 2011, 17:09

dont know how youd test it, but thats a copy of the exact one ppl use, but they use the magnetti marrelli part it replaces.... that looks like a cheap copy so its more then possible it doesnt work

but id try making sure youve got the correct wires on the correct pins first

7th July 2011, 17:12

from my old rallye motors and xsi lumps although the map sensors are similar they wont run each others engine, although the plugs are the same........

7th July 2011, 17:14

mf2 you need to run 2 map sensors anyway, you need to keep the standard one for the ecu so it doesn't spack out and you use the boost map sensor for the mf2 need to the 2 in tandem

7th July 2011, 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophia_Bush

mf2 you need to run 2 map sensors anyway, you need to keep the standard one for the ecu so it doesn't spack out and you use the boost map sensor for the mf2 need to the 2 in tandem

ahhhh i never realised this, makes total sense now!

you now have your answer!

7th July 2011, 20:53

so do i run the same wires to the other map sensor then

7th July 2011, 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophia_Bush

mf2 you need to run 2 map sensors anyway, you need to keep the standard one for the ecu so it doesn't spack out and you use the boost map sensor for the mf2 need to the 2 in tandem

i have been led t belive this wont work as unless you have your foot flat the ecu will read the lamber sensor as an over fuel and decrece the standerd fueling hence why the sig con was made i have a sigcon 2 if you want one and a mf2 if you dont allredy have one hope this makes sense Tom

7th July 2011, 21:23

need 2 map sensors for a simple reason you can not expect the standard ecu to use a boost map sensor and read the right signals for the standard fueling and to feed the mf2 for boost. You keep the standard map sensor in place so the ecu reads everything as normal then you have the mf2 and the boost map sensor.

MF2 uses the boost map sensor on a seperate raw signal basis this won't effect the standard ecu as when you set the mf2 up you have to clamp the voltages using the potentiometers within the mf2 unit so when boost comes on the mf2 send signals back to the standard ecu saying everything is normal here thats when the mf2 switches over to the raw signal of the boost map sensor to inject the extra fuel.

It's pretty much what I did 4 years or so ago before I went dastek which tbh is what I'd go for if budget boosting

7th July 2011, 21:23

sorry to hijack thread, does this apply to a vtr turbo aswell by using two map sensor? leaving the standard 1 in the inlet and adding another 1 for the mf2 controller

im confsed now! i really want to drive my car :-(

7th July 2011, 21:34

in the mf2 manual i have the map sensor only has one wire going to it

7th July 2011, 21:38

could some one draw me up a quick sketch of the mf2 wiring

7th July 2011, 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophia_Bush

need 2 map sensors for a simple reason you can not expect the standard ecu to use a boost map sensor and read the right signals for the standard fueling and to feed the mf2 for boost. You keep the standard map sensor in place so the ecu reads everything as normal then you have the mf2 and the boost map sensor.

MF2 uses the boost map sensor on a seperate raw signal basis this won't effect the standard ecu as when you set the mf2 up you have to clamp the voltages using the potentiometers within the mf2 unit so when boost comes on the mf2 send signals back to the standard ecu saying everything is normal here thats when the mf2 switches over to the raw signal of the boost map sensor to inject the extra fuel.

It's pretty much what I did 4 years or so ago before I went dastek which tbh is what I'd go for if budget boosting

mate wot your saying is allmost word for word the set up for a sig con the mf onley controls the extra fuel side of things not the map signal

7th July 2011, 22:03

it's how I ran it and it is pretty much how steveo1600 with his vtr turbo runs it without sigcon without a problem. With the mf2 you have to clamp the voltage when it comes on boost so the unit knows when to start using the raw signal from the boost map sensor to fire the extra injector(s) at x rpm.

As said you can not use just 1 boost map sensor and leave it at that and expect the car to even work properly the standard ecu won't know whats going on when it comes on boost plus if you do it that way the mf2 will be just chucking fuel in.

Standard map sensor stays were it is so the ecu knows whats going on normally, boost map sensor with its raw signal for mf2 only the way its wired in you have a wire from the oe map sensor to the mf2 this basically works in tandem so when mf2 sees boost it reads a certain voltage so this is then clamped so the signal going through the oe map is what the normal reading should be.

I'll get steve to reply to this aswell as he is running his vtr turbo on just mf2 with no sigcon no problems

7th July 2011, 22:21

i'm not saying you cant do it with out as you say its been dun but the sigcon simplifys it and disables lamber fueling when on boost

8th July 2011, 12:28

OK then.

to clear a few things up.

you DO NOT need a Sigcon unit to run a boosted saxo, it does help to smooth things out though IF you can get it to work as it is very tricky.

YOU DO need to use two map sensors, original and a 2bar+ one. they must run together.

The mf2 unit controls how much petrol to fire in via the 5th injector. it does this by reading a raw signal from a 2/3 bar map sensor, when the map sensor sees boost, the mf2 will go oh shit squirt petrol now and will stop the car leaning out and going bang.

now below is how to run it on its own.

Right, you need the following.

2 map sensors, your original sensor, one 2 bar or 3 bar map sensor.
some electrical wire
some more vaccum hose
t-peice to suit your desired vaccum hose.

the way you connect the NEW map sensor up is vital.

you need to cut your original map sensor vaccum feed hose and T in the new sensor.so you will have 2 sensors running in the same hose to the inlet.

next you need to POWER the new map sensor, you do this by using the mf2,s ORANGE AND WHITE wires. the orange is the +5v supply, the 0v is the white. but be careful as the mf2 uses 2 white wires, one is the earth the other is the 0v you can get these mixed up as i did and nothing worked.

the blue wire on the mf2 wiring needs to be connected to the new map sensors RAW signal. so the sensor can tell the mf2 when pressure is being read. simple enough to do.

you can even make a plug if you wanted to connect the new sensor up, all i did was use small spade connectors to each pin (theirs 3 on the map sensor) then taped it up with electrical tape, then wiring harness tape so it looks tidy.

then obviously make sure mf2 is wired in as normal, the yellow goes to the diagnostic port, theirs a grey wire with a number 425 or 426 on their. connect to that.

So to recap, the original map sensor is untouched runs as normal, but the new map sensor has to be wire/plumbed in alongside the mf2.

hope that helps.

8th July 2011, 15:00

thanks stevo1600 that has helped alot but there is one thing you say you need to cut your original map sensor vaccum feed hose and T in the new sensor.so you will have 2 sensors running in the same hose to the inlet. but the original map sensor is attached to the inlet and doesnt have a hose will it be ok to use the charcol canister inlet for the other map sensor as thats where i have mine attached to.

8th July 2011, 15:13

well either tap a new hole into the inlet and run the 2 bar sensor directly to it, or put the original sensor on some vaccum hose, then t in the 2 bar sensor then hose to inlet.

aslong as both are working/wired in and can take a pressure reading from the inlet plenum then it will work fine.

8th July 2011, 15:25

just use the take off from the inlet by the throttle body on the 16v t piece off that

8th July 2011, 17:01

i have had to make the loom my self this is what i used

and i only have one wight wire

8th July 2011, 17:45

you will need to add a second wire to the white one and fit the fit the orange hope this helps

8th July 2011, 18:11

so the wight wire goes to the ground

8th July 2011, 19:16

yea you need a second white wire then mate.

excellent diagram tom

8th July 2011, 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by karenv

so the wight wire goes to the ground

one white goes to ground along with the black wire.

the other wire goes to the 0v pin on the 2/3bar map sensor.

8th July 2011, 19:23

wot boost you runing now Steve?

8th July 2011, 19:29

i was running 8 psi, and it was quick for the little pressure it was running. but i didnt use locking nuts on my manifold to turbo, so the gaskets popped and its a big job to change it. to tight to tighten the two back nuts up aswell which is gay.

so im running zero pressure atm now as its massively leaking boost. hopefully if weathers nice tomorrow ill strip it down and fix the god thing.

8th July 2011, 20:33

Thanks you very much for all your help it is all wired in now so hope she works

9th July 2011, 00:59

keep us up dated you shud start a progress thred

[edit] do you have an AFR wide band guage to keep an eye on fueling

9th July 2011, 09:58

yea i got this

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWNX:IT

9th July 2011, 20:44

thanks to every one that helped me my car is up and running and she is quick

9th July 2011, 23:21

vids and progress thread needed

9th July 2011, 23:33

as above.

10th July 2011, 13:14

top gauge that.

good luck and keep us updated mate

10th July 2011, 16:24

ok insted of making a new thread thought i would use this one been out in the car today and on tick over the afr reads 15-16 and while driving it is about 14 is this ok

13th July 2011, 14:56

just wired my 2.5bar map sensor up and plumbed it into vacume hose like above ^ using mf2

but the 5th injector is firing fuel out soon as u turn the ignition on

have i done something wrong?