Standard 16v clutch bhp and torque rating

16th November 2011, 22:15

sorry to be a pain in the arse but an oe valeo 16v clutch how much bhp and torque can they handle before they poo themselves and exit via the box?

16th November 2011, 22:17

I heard around 180bhp is the limit

16th November 2011, 22:22

It's a strange one, because I would have thought it should be rated by torque loading. But I've heard 180 hp was the limit as well.

16th November 2011, 22:28

I know the clutches are strong for standar part, it's the thrust bearing whats rather shit. Mine wasnt even old and that shat itself on 8psi.

16th November 2011, 22:35

Torque is what kills it.

Mine ran fine on the std valeo and is more than 180.

16th November 2011, 22:38

good stuff that settles that then

16th November 2011, 22:39

I must of had a dud then, or a dodgy gbox. I've only ever heard positive things about the valeo clutches tbh.

17th November 2011, 11:36

BHP IS A CALCULATION OF TORQUE X RPM divided by 5250
so yes torque is way you rate a clutch and the higher the rpm for a given bhp ,the less torque there is .
so to get a real answer you need to know both the torque value and rpm max torque wil be at ,
a REAL 180 bhp is too much for a std clutch ,UNLESS ITS AT above 8K. and then its still too much really as with rpm the cntrifical effect on the cover will reduce its torque capcity
std clutch is designed for 120bhp --not +50%--
I think you will find the cars that run std clutch and are ok do not have 180 bhp--
just like the dutch guy a few months ago who was claiming 300bhp on his turbo car,usingstd internals and using a helix uprated pressed steel cover type clutch --If he had 300 bhp the clutch would be slipping on the dyno if its was fully loaded up and not just a "flash" bhp figure .
I have ripped the cover off the flywheel with that type of unit at lees power than that .
the saving grace on most road cars is that you will get wheelspin before you see a real 260+@wheels ,so that saves the clutch a bit
if its boosted and giving 180 bhp at around 5500-6500 --no way will std clutch last ,you can raise the capacity a little by making the step on the flywheel a little bigger ,but not much

17th November 2011, 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo1600

I know the clutches are strong for standar part, it's the thrust bearing whats rather shit. Mine wasnt even old and that shat itself on 8psi.

nothing wrong with std release brg --providing you have correct type for the clutch you are using --there have been 3 different shaped finger types on saxo covers ,over the years and you need correct bearing to match it .
the other usual failing is incorrect set-up of cable so bearing is running hard against the cover all the time .
the clutch pedal is NOT a foot rest
one of the above is your problem ,either that or the uprated clutch unit, I am guessing you were using for boost was not a good one and put toomuch strain on the bearing due to set-up height of the cover /flywheel /clutch arm

17th November 2011, 12:46

cant see a standard clutch coping with 140-150lbft imo

17th November 2011, 12:53

mine with 144ft/bl and 186 hp was slipping a valeo badly

it slips an ap 4 paddle in a standard cover for some reason though so im not sure wtf is going on with it

17th November 2011, 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

a REAL 180 bhp is too much for a std clutch ,UNLESS ITS AT above 8K. and then its still too much really as with rpm the cntrifical effect on the cover will reduce its torque capcity
std clutch is designed for 120bhp --not +50%--
I think you will find the cars that run std clutch and are ok do not have 180

3 different rolling roads all making over 180 bhp, including recently when I was told it wouldn't make more than 170 down at jkm in Portsmouth. I'd take that as a real figure tbh.

Mine makes peak power around 7600 and holds to 8300.

The previous owner actually killed expensive clutches quicker.

17th November 2011, 13:28

alex- heavy covers are due to the higher clamping force, this is what keeps your paddle plate from slipping, coupled with the better material on the paddle plate, by using a stock cover all your getting is a lil more grip through that material, your not really getting anything to clamp it down and make it bite, so your going to get slip if making good power

17th November 2011, 13:32

bit reluctant to go for a heavier cover due to seeing 2 clutch forks snap off due to them

17th November 2011, 13:55

just remember my last one coped with 145flb quite nicely

17th November 2011, 18:19

part and parcel really alex, could always convert to hydraulic and then you keep a soft peddle, or strenghten the arm, mines fine on a helix 4 paddle with helix cover, and takes 230lbft fine,

Gav at what rpm was it making that? As john sais that can have an effect too, if its at higher rpm you have reduced chance of slip

17th November 2011, 19:28

120bhp @4k and 145flb @4.5k

17th November 2011, 19:31

mine still propelled the car with around 200lb+ for a small amount of time. quite suprised how well it stood up to the abuse tbh.

17th November 2011, 19:49

think how long it lasts will ultimately depend on where the power comes in and the condition of your clutch in the first place, like on steve's set up, clutch probs had a bit wear, and id imagine the bearing gave up because it could not cope with all the extra heat from his clutch probably slipping alot, and the bearing gave out before the plate fried

but higher up the revs is alot less stressful on the clutch for your power coming in. but in most cases your prefer it to come in lower if you can put the power down to get the best form it

17th November 2011, 19:49

double post fail

17th November 2011, 19:59

But there is a double whammy effect here... low rpm at 180 hp means phat torque levels, friction between the plates can't sustain and bye bye clutch, but hypothetically you could have 180 hp from a super high revving engine so it produces bugger all torque. So how tolerant is the material to heat? The moment you dump 15 k rpm on to the input shaft at 0 k rpm you're going to be generating fusion levels of heat.

Edit: or it what blackie was saying and the material can cope but the bearing can't?

17th November 2011, 20:04

thats what i meant aswell mate, just without writing it all

on the bearing issue i was mainly referring to just steve's set up, i think the excess heat from his slipping would have fried his clutch anyway, as he was having major slip issues with it, but in his case i think the bearing just either give up first or melted due to this...

17th November 2011, 22:09

Well I think your spot on blackie, my clutch was slipping quite alot, the bearing was just a blob when I took the gbox off. The clutch looked un damaged but I replaced it with something stronger anyway. Those bearings must take some beating though, especially on stronger clutch plates I would of thought...l

22nd November 2011, 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

BHP IS A CALCULATION OF TORQUE X RPM divided by 5250
so yes torque is way you rate a clutch and the higher the rpm for a given bhp ,the less torque there is .
so to get a real answer you need to know both the torque value and rpm max torque wil be at ,
a REAL 180 bhp is too much for a std clutch ,UNLESS ITS AT above 8K. and then its still too much really as with rpm the cntrifical effect on the cover will reduce its torque capcity
std clutch is designed for 120bhp --not +50%--
I think you will find the cars that run std clutch and are ok do not have 180 bhp--
just like the dutch guy a few months ago who was claiming 300bhp on his turbo car,usingstd internals and using a helix uprated pressed steel cover type clutch --If he had 300 bhp the clutch would be slipping on the dyno if its was fully loaded up and not just a "flash" bhp figure .
I have ripped the cover off the flywheel with that type of unit at lees power than that .
the saving grace on most road cars is that you will get wheelspin before you see a real 260+@wheels ,so that saves the clutch a bit
if its boosted and giving 180 bhp at around 5500-6500 --no way will std clutch last ,you can raise the capacity a little by making the step on the flywheel a little bigger ,but not much

well its 410 bhp now, and trust me it has been tested for as far as i know the only true dyno in the netherlands.

22nd November 2011, 22:24

hmm, cant edit.
I am driving my 1.6 16v with my (50.000 km) old 1.4 clutch and i still have no problems
(1000km

).

23rd November 2011, 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickB4

well its 410 bhp now, and trust me it has been tested for as far as i know the only true dyno in the netherlands.

there is no way the uprated helix pressed steel cover type clutch can take 410bhp --ring up terry at helix and give him your figures and he,ll tel you --so something is not correct .
put a video up showing it holding 410bhp steady for only 5seconds --not a flash reading
even DP.s videos never show a dyno reading for more than 0.5 -1.0 secs,before the video stops - thats flash readings --not real power
the dyno run should take at least 12secs to go from say 2k -to your max bhp rpm --less than that and its not real bhp --just flash readings caused by inertia of rollers .
or get a dyno run done on a hub dyno and show a vid of it holding the bhp for a few sec --then i will believe you
how you can get 410bhp and not wheelspin on the rollers with normal size saxo tyres sizes --not possible

23rd November 2011, 12:01

I think it was done on a hub dyno (DP's) John. Wasn't this figure apparently at the hubs too? I'm not 100% sure but I believe it was also on a gt28 turbo also apparently which was my reservation.

23rd November 2011, 12:08

yep hub dyno

just a quick thought...

i too though these figures were suspect. but deans car made 372bhp ATW with the gt2871r so with E85 race fuel that i believe this car was mapped on, is 30'ish more hp not believable.
it sure as hell makes more sense than when i first saw the figures.

i know that E85 can make a MASSIVE difference on turbocharged cars.

23rd November 2011, 14:07

could still be a flash reading --hold at same rpm for a few seconds to get correct figure
e85 fuel is £4.00 a litre --hardly pump petrol--still don,t think it would make that difference

23rd November 2011, 14:37

are these figures still claimed on standard internals?

23rd November 2011, 14:53

yep-std internals and an uprated std type clutch cover + plate

23rd November 2011, 14:54

yes - standard internals on a decomp plate apparently.

And Danny - deans car apparently made 372 atw on atspeeds dyno... Where Brents car apparently made 301atw (on a 2860). Brents car was then taken to another dyno where it made 270 atw (on a 2871 at the same boost). Read into that what you will. I believe atspeeds dyno readings about as much as i believe in santa.

23rd November 2011, 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by RossDagley

yes - standard internals on a decomp plate apparently.

And Danny - deans car apparently made 372 atw on atspeeds dyno... Where Brents car apparently made 301atw (on a 2860). Brents car was then taken to another dyno where it made 270 atw (on a 2871 at the same boost). Read into that what you will. I believe atspeeds dyno readings about as much as i believe in santa.

not defending anyone here but theres a differential there. different turbo, different day etc. in no way am i saying it could substitute a 30hp difference but not directly comparible.

i dont 'believe' in any dyno, id use the same dyno on same temp day to get comparible figures ideally.

for example, i know of a friends car made 139@wheels on gmc rollers but made 117@wheels on someone else's. different day though so its hard to say if anything has contributed to the difference.

23rd November 2011, 17:06

It's a hub dyno:
http://www.dp-engineering.nl/EN/dyno...troduction.php

23rd November 2011, 20:06

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdbYRsrlRNs

I know this car, and this thing is scary. Is has done some trackdays and is still running.

The owner is still waiting on a person named Ross Dagley who is talking a lot and who should come to the Netherlands to DP-engineering to compare and see it for himself that this car make 400+ HP.
But Ross is not a man of his word apparently.

23rd November 2011, 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbomaniac

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdbYRsrlRNs

I know this car, and this thing is scary. Is has done some trackdays and is still running.

The owner is still waiting on a person named Ross Dagley who is talking a lot and who should come to the Netherlands to DP-engineering to compare and see it for himself that this car make 400+ HP.
But Ross is not a man of his word apparently.

No point going to Dp in Netherlands to use the same inaccurate dyno. I don't think anyone is doubting that it has made that indicated power but all it has done is make that number on a computer screen and is blatant bull. and as for the 600hp ones in Greece...well that a totally different story!

I have seen one of the main 106/saxo tuning companies on here claim ''a standard saxo has around 115 WHP on our rollers'' which is bonkers lol

23rd November 2011, 21:08

Nah, there are trackday movies that also shows this little 106 passing the faster audi's (S,RS), bmw's etc. on the track like they have a flinstone car.

23rd November 2011, 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickB4

Nah, there are trackday movies that also shows this little 106 passing the faster audi's (S,RS), bmw's etc. on the track like they have a flinstone car.

show us these videos.

23rd November 2011, 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickB4

Nah, there are trackday movies that also shows this little 106 passing the faster audi's (S,RS), bmw's etc. on the track like they have a flinstone car.

watch most boosted tin cans on track and they pass these other 'faster' cars. the higher spec boosted cars like colins for example actually make the other cars on track look like their reversing lol and he certainly doesnt have 400hp atw.

24th November 2011, 01:46

Ross didn't come Nils because he didnt have a mapped car when we went to Germany

I'd gladly put my car on any dyno anywhere as long as I believed the operator was being honest. I suspect the power figure I get anywhere else would be higher, not lower, than the actual power my regular dyno says... Let's see some of the other big power cars on ANY other dyno. Or even a dyno graph would be a good start...

Any decent boosted saxo/106 is going to shit on "faster cars" like audi RS's, R8's etc. Not sure that's even relevant?

Speaking of Colin - why make a point of going out and doing his videos in every novice session on track, regardless of being a self proclaimed racer in his teens and having countless track day / track session experience? Makes the car look faster i guess, even if you do get slagged off for driving like an utter twat...
http://www.trackscotland.co.uk/forum...pic.php?t=3240

FYI marty, I have a dyno printout from "a tuner" showing a just rebuilt JP4 engine running low compression pistons and everything else standard making 115 atw. Add on the tuners magic 20% for "transmission losses" and thats a low compression version of the standard engine spitting out 138bhp atf. Er...

I'll believe a figure from anyone when it's put on an engine dyno. All the time it comes from rollers, it's an approximation (and that includes my car). But take what you see with a pinch of salt - 337hp atf on standard head, standard cams, gt28rs (internal wastegate), standard inlet. Yeah. OK.

24th November 2011, 08:43

the clutch he is using tells the story --rated at aorund 220bhp --not 400--
and if its used on track I am betting it has multiple maps and not running anything like 400 on the track --I have already done that and its impossible to drive with that amount of bhp in a racing manner in a saxo with 2 wheel drive,even 300 is not for the faint hearted
what gearbox is this using ?std ??

24th November 2011, 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbomaniac

The owner is still waiting on a person named Ross Dagley who is talking a lot and who should come to the Netherlands to DP-engineering to compare and see it for himself that this car make 400+ HP.
But Ross is not a man of his word apparently.

just to say im keeping out of wether this cars making figures ect i dont care if it does its not my car lol

Ross car was running properly badly for our trip to germany he actually left the track early to stop any damage occuring to his engine after spending the night before totally rebuilding the car

Hes not a mincer when it comes to his words hell say it how he sees it

24th November 2011, 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by RossDagley

Any decent boosted saxo/106 is going to shit on "faster cars" like audi RS's, R8's etc. Not sure that's even relevant?

Don't know if this is aimed at me or what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RossDagley

Speaking of Colin - why make a point of going out and doing his videos in every novice session on track, regardless of being a self proclaimed racer in his teens and having countless track day / track session experience? Makes the car look faster i guess, even if you do get slagged off for driving like an utter twat...
http://www.trackscotland.co.uk/forum...pic.php?t=3240

Yes agreed, some outrageous driving, but the vids are awesome and I enjoy watching V much!

Quote:

Originally Posted by RossDagley

FYI marty, I have a dyno printout from "a tuner" showing a just rebuilt JP4 engine running low compression pistons and everything else standard making 115 atw. Add on the tuners magic 20% for "transmission losses" and thats a low compression version of the standard engine spitting out 138bhp atf. Er...

115 atw with low comps???Whats going on here? Is that your printout?