708 cam + remap gains??

1. tarzan Frequent Poster Joined: Apr 2010 Lurgan Posts: 767 2001 black saxo furio 2001 black saxo vts

   #1 11th January 2012, 13:57

   hi all. a mate of mine has a 106 gti. he has a raceland induction kit and a backbox (not sure of make) he has had it on the RR a couple of times and it was putting out 136-7 bhp every time and he still hasnt put an aftermarket ex manifold on it.
   
   im currently rebuilding a vts engine for a conversion and im in the process of getting catcam 708's and looking for an ECU. but i have read on here that the mods i aam goin to be doin plus the cams and a remap will only get me around 141bhp which would be 5bhp more than my mate 106 with standard cams?
2. user_51379 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Mar 2011 plymouth Posts: 2921 mk2 VTS

   #2 11th January 2012, 14:00

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by tarzan hi all. a mate of mine has a 106 gti. he has a raceland induction kit and a backbox (not sure of make) he has had it on the RR a couple of times and it was putting out 136-7 bhp every time and he still hasnt put an aftermarket ex manifold on it. im currently rebuilding a vts engine for a conversion and im in the process of getting catcam 708's and looking for an ECU. but i have read on here that the mods i aam goin to be doin plus the cams and a remap will only get me around 141bhp which would be 5bhp more than my mate 106 with standard cams?

   he must have other mods to get 136-7 bhp a raceland induction kit and a back box wont increase it that much
3. AlexBp West Midlands Joined: Dec 2007 West mids Posts: 23149 Supra,civic GL

   #3 11th January 2012, 14:13

   Depends on what rollers what temps and allsorts tbh
   
   Seen standard vts run same figures as my old red breathing modded gti at 137 for both
   A well looked after engine will do very well for itself tbh
   
   141 is low for cams and if its toms flatty iirc that wasnt mapped when 141 was run
   
   also seen figures in the 160s from just cams no 2 engines are the same but average youll see high 140 to low 150 figures
4. tarzan Frequent Poster Joined: Apr 2010 Lurgan Posts: 767 2001 black saxo furio 2001 black saxo vts

   #4 11th January 2012, 14:17

   i was looking at those graphs from the catcam 743's which also had the 708's on the same graph.
   
   i knew there was something to cause the low figure. no mapping
   
   thanks for the input guys
5. user_32315 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2009 Uppingham, Rutland Posts: 9569 mk1 JP4'd VTR, '16 Fabia Monte Carlo

   #5 11th January 2012, 14:45

   he got an increase of 0.3bhp after the remap iirc he got 141.5bhp, that graph does show the post map runs however the rolling road is supposed to be really harsh, another vts with 708's and bodies only made like 150bhp
   
   he then got 144bhp on the 743's
   
   and then got 149bhp on 743's at northampton motorsport
   
   and then got 151bhp with the polished t/b
   
   I'm just hoping my car makes more than 151bhp when i finally get it mapped otherwise im going to have to hang my head in shame and have in gloating at me
6. Tom5190 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 Someones Bumhole Posts: 5721 Mk2 16v Desire

   #6 11th January 2012, 16:12

   Yea just to clear up all of them figures on mine were after a map matey.
   
   I used RS tuning rolling road, you cant really compare two rolling roads, we use northampton for our power figures mainly which is why i went there with them to see what the score was and so i could compare with other vts/gti's we have done. i have a graph here of my car and a car on 708's with KMS management and eveything was else pretty identical between the two, However it is a different car. Sam was right with the above figures i made 5bhp more on northampton road than the rs tuning one so then your looking around the 145bhp mark for the 708s at northampton which adds up with this graph. But thats obviously just assumption.
   
   
   
   Ive seen people give RR print outs of 160 with 708's it depends on what road your using. I have a print out of my car with 140bhp with just breathing mods from a RR up north (obviously its not correct the rolling road i used was reading really high)
7. stupotvtr Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2007 EDINBURGH Posts: 3143 BMW e36 328i sport

   #7 11th January 2012, 17:05

   RS tuning rollers are well respected in the Renault world they use dyno dynamics, k-tec binned there dyno dynamics because it gave an " under reading"
8. Barry123 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2005 Aycliffe Posts: 32205 Saxo VTS

   #8 11th January 2012, 17:11

   Mine made something ridiculous like 138 hp on a rolling road. That was with just a manifold and backbox as the only mods from standard. The wheel figure of 105 hp, however was more believable.
   
   I'd like to see wheel figures for cars with 708's to see what the real difference is.
9. Tom5190 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 Someones Bumhole Posts: 5721 Mk2 16v Desire

   #9 11th January 2012, 17:18

   heres the Rs tuning graph's. As said above they are well known for renaults and the lads there are spot on. You just cant compare two different rolling roads really.
   
   
   
10. user_4681 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Dec 2004 Grimsby United Kingdom (England) Posts: 5489 SUPERCHARGED saxo vts

    #10 11th January 2012, 17:27

    ive an 03 plate vts standard bar a sportcat and cheap ind kit made 136.7 bhp
    
    this was on the same rollers same day i made only 151 bhp on my other vts with 708, pred ecu, 330 injectors and at throtle bodies.
    
    my bodied car made 130bhp mapped with the cams set at standard marks. with cam time adjusted and no further remap i made 151.
    
    id like to see the cars map adjusted but its unlikely i ever will since im building a supercharged engine now.
    
    in my case i wanted to say it was the cam timing that made a large change.
11. craig180p Yorkshire Joined: Dec 2005 West Yorkshire Posts: 31079 1989 Golf GTi Clipper

    #11 11th January 2012, 17:44

    My 2000vts ran 152 with 708s and a remap.
    
    When I put it back on standard cams and ecu it ran 141bhp but that was with headwork, 4-1, Decat and Green open filter. In November.
12. Tom5190 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 Someones Bumhole Posts: 5721 Mk2 16v Desire

    #12 11th January 2012, 19:41

    which road did you two use?
13. craig180p Yorkshire Joined: Dec 2005 West Yorkshire Posts: 31079 1989 Golf GTi Clipper

    #13 11th January 2012, 19:50

    Mine ran on cams at Well Lane Turbo Centre and the non cammed runs were at Mikeanics and Well Lane and both roads showed 141bhp
14. ers10weys91 L-plater Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 89

    #14 11th January 2012, 19:51

    Hi
    708 cam and remaps
    How much horsepower can get?
    the site says you can get up to 160 HP? its true
15. craig180p Yorkshire Joined: Dec 2005 West Yorkshire Posts: 31079 1989 Golf GTi Clipper

    #15 11th January 2012, 19:52

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ers10weys91 Hi 708 cam and remaps How much horsepower can get? the site says you can get up to 160 HP? its true

    Realistically around 150-155, but I'm sure 160 has been achieved on several roads
16. ers10weys91 L-plater Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 89

    #16 11th January 2012, 19:56

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by saxo180 Realistically around 150-155, but I'm sure 160 has been achieved on several roads

    708 @ flywheel writing
    this flywheel=Do you want to say a light flywheel?
17. tarzan Frequent Poster Joined: Apr 2010 Lurgan Posts: 767 2001 black saxo furio 2001 black saxo vts

    #17 11th January 2012, 20:21

    i hear also that the standard ECU can be remapped but doesnt give as good a result as an aftermarket management. if im getting 708's what is the best management i can use and because i live in Northern Ireland there is no specialists here. how good a result can i get if i just send the ECU to the likes of chipwizards etc.
    
    also im not getting throttle bodies just good air filter, and raceland 421 on the fully rebuilt engine. what bhp would i expect?
18. user_4681 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Dec 2004 Grimsby United Kingdom (England) Posts: 5489 SUPERCHARGED saxo vts

    #18 11th January 2012, 20:23

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tom5190 which road did you two use?

    corten miller garage lincolnshire
    
    dyno dynamics
19. Tom5190 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 Someones Bumhole Posts: 5721 Mk2 16v Desire

    #19 11th January 2012, 20:41

    Intresting what different road's make, we should have a sticky or something with certain mods on different road's. The dyno dynamics at RS is the 4 wheel version it seemed a good road like but we had abit of trouble with the 205 slipping off the rear twin roller. Northampton's is a single roller set up.
20. unreal106 Established Member Joined: Apr 2008 Dudley Posts: 1634 106 GTI

    #20 14th January 2012, 21:32

    typical price people usually pay for a standard ecu remap?
21. Tom5190 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 Someones Bumhole Posts: 5721 Mk2 16v Desire

    #21 14th January 2012, 21:36

    we do it for £295+ vat....
22. unreal106 Established Member Joined: Apr 2008 Dudley Posts: 1634 106 GTI

    #22 14th January 2012, 21:37

    thank you for the information :-)
23. Tsaxovts Frequent Poster Joined: Dec 2010 Basingstoke Posts: 735 Cammed Mk 1 Vts

    #23 16th January 2012, 00:06

    if you go to some rolling roads they give you extra horsepower for having stickers
24. mariostomas Newbie Joined: Dec 2010 Posts: 6

    #24 23rd January 2012, 10:15

    I have cat cams 708 on my vts (stock pistons, default timings) + AEM wideband meter. Also I have stock ECU and I am programming the ECU by myself. I use also a switch and a bigger EPROM to run two different programs on this stock ECU for testing purposes. The results are : with a modified stock program you are not taking all the advantages of these cams , because lambda sensor always tries to correct the air fuel back to 14,7/1 ratio , no matter how much fuel you add to the ECU .
    The best results for stock ECU with 708 cams can be achieved with a modified Peugeot Sport program which is working always in open loop mode without lambda sensor .Then the air fuel ratio is 12 , 13 , etc . and the torque is rising . So
    The cheap way 1: Stock ECU + programmed = average results. Low emissions, existence of catalyt , high mileage driving.
    The cheap way 2tock ECU + programmed with a (modified Peugeot Sport program) = good results but with high emissions , no catalytic converter , low mileage driving.
    The expensive way : Aftermarket ECU = the same good results as previous with the capability to fine tuning to optimum and high emissions and no catalytic , low mileage driving .With these you can achieve up to 160 hp flywheel , in addition with forged pistons to play a little bit with the timing .

    1 user thanked this post: craig180p
25. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #25 23rd January 2012, 20:31

    forget the bhp bragging figure. Timed correctly the cat cam 1321708 or 1321743 will give significant gains. Basically these are as lairy as you can get without major upgrading of other parts