Ph3 cam advice needed ,8v silvertop

11th April 2012, 18:38

Ok so I'm thinking about cramming my vtr but need to know a few things first,

Most post say there's no need to remap but for best gains it advisable, so will it idle like a bag o turd or will it be liveable I wll get it mapped at some point

Do I need a vernier pully ? I'm guessing not

How are the pulleys located on the shaft, pin/slot? and will I need an impact gun to fit the pully To the shaft

Also what do I need to replace when removing the head ? So far I can see that I need head bolts, head gasket , cam shaft seal, any thing else ? I'm doing the cam belt and water pump at the same time

Any and all info would be good

11th April 2012, 18:49

Camming a vtr isn't worth it

11th April 2012, 18:51

hi pal...... i have a ph2 in blacktop form which is equivalent to ph3 silvertop and it will run without map; however i will say now that it wont run very well unless its timed up correctly on a vernier pulley.

no need for anything to the extremes of a power gun to get the pulley on..... torqueing it to oe settings is more than suffice

as for the head rebuild.... i would repalce EVERYTHING, except valves and casted head, so as you stated above you will need to change head bolts, headgasket, cam seal, valve stem seal, check the themostat housing see if that requires re sealing and check the water hose onto the housing as they can perish and finally i would also recommend a rocker cover seal..... that should see you with a nice fresh head

any more Q's feel free to ask

11th April 2012, 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by barwell1992

Ok so I'm thinking about cramming my vtr but need to know a few things first,

Most post say there's no need to remap but for best gains it advisable, so will it idle like a bag o turd or will it be liveable I wll get it mapped at some point

Do I need a vernier pully ? I'm guessing not

How are the pulleys located on the shaft, pin/slot? and will I need an impact gun to fit the pully To the shaft

Also what do I need to replace when removing the head ? So far I can see that I need head bolts, head gasket , cam shaft seal, any thing else ? I'm doing the cam belt and water pump at the same time

Any and all info would be good

Unmapped (depending on which cam): Probably stall now and again, not nice to drive round town.

Mapped: More power from the ignition firing and injectors opening when they should! Will Idle slightly better.

Cylinder head doesn't need to be removed, however you can do it for a piece of mind knowing all gasket are in good working order below, may save you a double job!

Vernier pulley is advised for best set-up

11th April 2012, 19:37

If you want to "self refurb head" you can replace:

Headgasket, Head bolts, Valve stem oil seals, thermostat housing gasket, rocker cover gasket, exhaust manifold gasket, inlet manifold gasket.

You may want the head skimmed.

Valves to be re-seated.

Personally I wouldn't go as far as valve guides, and you need to take them to a shop to get them replaced.

Clean exhaust ports.

11th April 2012, 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

Camming a vtr isn't worth it

Well set-up cammed vtr would give a vts a run for its money

11th April 2012, 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by B205GTT

Well set-up cammed vtr would give a vts a run for its money

Blackies vtr WOULD have beat most vts, if it wasn't now in pieces

Op, I cammed my old vtr, personal opinion is it wasn't worth the effort/cost! If you do want to do it that's ultimately your choice though mate

11th April 2012, 19:51

i have a cammed vtr, piper 285 piper pulley, skimmed head a touch, new bolts hgasket. it runs fine timed on pulley no dodgey idle alot more fun, probably not worth the effort, but yes will give a breathed 16v a run for its money :d

11th April 2012, 20:05

Cheers all, so you don't need to remove the head to replace the cam on a vtr ?

And I kinda know it's not worth cramming a vtr but still fancy doing it, done a few bike engines including a formula BMW k1300 port and polish but never a car engine so fancy giving it ago

Ps I'm swapping back to the vtr from an 185bhp turbo abarth so wanting more horses I will vts at some point but not yet as I'm just about to buy a bike

So in short i need cam and pulley timing marks from some one else or set up on rr and cam cover gasket and cam seals for the pikey way of doing things without going all out on a head strip ?

11th April 2012, 20:20

if your going to vts it in future i really wouldnt waste the money on camming it now again its not my car though.
Mine is standard timing then 2degrees retarded in the pulley, and i have no complaints with running, head off job really, i thing ive read that you can undo engine mounts jack up engine enough to slide cam out, but i dont know if you actually can :s

11th April 2012, 20:25

My advice is don't bother. There's a good reason why people don't bother camming these engines - really poor value for money. I went down the "let's do something different" route with my VTR a few years ago - did the usual breathing mods, then fitted a Kent PT40 (which is pretty similar to the PH3).

After having the timing adjusted on the rollers, it made 118bhp ATF. If I'm totally honest, I couldn't tell the difference at all and probably only gained <10bhp. Moved onto a VTS afterwards and found the 16V a lot more urgent, just need to keep it on the boil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by barwell1992

Cheers all, so you don't need to remove the head to replace the cam on a vtr ?

The head needs to come off, so you'll need to replace the head gasket and head bolts too.

A PH3 will run fine without a remap - doubt you'll even notice it's in there. Personally, I'd fit the cam to standard timing using the original pulley, fit a vernier pulley, and have the timing adjusted on the rollers. I know someone on here had problems getting through an emissions test with one fitted though, worth bearing in mind.

11th April 2012, 20:29

sorry to jump into your thread but is there any way of telling if an engine is cammed ?? got a vtr lump ready to go ito my car and was told when bought it that its 127bhp

am waiting to see the proof of this tho lol

11th April 2012, 20:33

Very well said Liam

I cammed my vtr, it wasn't worth it

And yes the head does need to come off

Also, my car is not yet in bits

It's still together and still running, and will still rape most vts' unless they're turbo or have stupid amounts of money on the engine

11th April 2012, 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by knightyVTR

sorry to jump into your thread but is there any way of telling if an engine is cammed ?? got a vtr lump ready to go ito my car and was told when bought it that its 127bhp

am waiting to see the proof of this tho lol

I would take that figure with a pinch of salt.

If you remove the cam belt cover, a vernier pulley would be a tell-tale sign. Failing that, if you remove the cam pulley, there may be a code stamped on the end of the camshaft.

11th April 2012, 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by knightyVTR

sorry to jump into your thread but is there any way of telling if an engine is cammed ?? got a vtr lump ready to go ito my car and was told when bought it that its 127bhp

am waiting to see the proof of this tho lol

You can remove the rocker cover, cam pulley, and cover on right side of head to check for any writting on the camshaft

What cams is it alleged to have?

Newman stamp there's on the pulley side iirc? Of the camshaft end

11th April 2012, 20:38

Lol, Liam to the rescue again

11th April 2012, 20:39

I know I always say this but why not fit a rallye/xsi head? 270 degree J cam and a better design of head its a no brainer for decent gains and not much outlay. Easy enough to fit on a mk1/crossover, mk2 shouldnt be too difficult

11th April 2012, 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

Lol, Liam to the rescue again

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

Newman stamp there's on the pulley side iirc? Of the camshaft end

Pretty sure my Kent cam was too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandi699

I know I always say this but why not fit a rallye/xsi head? 270 degree J cam and a better design of head its a no brainer for decent gains and not much outlay. Easy enough to fit on a mk1/crossover, mk2 shouldnt be too difficult

There any issues with piston to valve clearance though? As I seem to remember the non-roller rocker heads run quite a bit more lift?

My advice would be: if you want more out of the VTR lump and don't want to be disappointed, boost it.

11th April 2012, 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liam_

I would take that figure with a pinch of salt.

If you remove the cam belt cover, a vernier pulley would be a tell-tale sign. Failing that, if you remove the cam pulley, there may be a code stamped on the end of the camshaft.

am not expecting that figure as the rr print out has "BEEN LOST" hasnt got vernier pulley will have to look into it abit more

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

You can remove the rocker cover, cam pulley, and cover on right side of head to check for any writting on the camshaft

What cams is it alleged to have?

Newman stamp there's on the pulley side iirc? Of the camshaft end

not alleged to have any cam as far as i no but if WAS 127hp would have to have had a fair bit done if wasnt cammed??.

is prob aload of bull**** but didnt pay any extra because of the "claimed figure" lol

11th April 2012, 20:49

I have a fully rebuilt rallye head with j cam for sale, its done 6 mile since the rebuild

11th April 2012, 20:56

Cheers all maybe I won't bother just strip every last bit out of it and fit a 4-1 mani then get a custom made centre section with 200cel cat

maybe I'll go boost instead of a vts swap or vts and boost

11th April 2012, 20:58

I also have a turbo conversion for sale

11th April 2012, 21:01

price ?

(i will have some cash to spare .... whether i want to spend it or not though..)

11th April 2012, 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liam_

Pretty sure my Kent cam was too.

There any issues with piston to valve clearance though? As I seem to remember the non-roller rocker heads run quite a bit more lift?

My advice would be: if you want more out of the VTR lump and don't want to be disappointed, boost it.

Shouldnt be if you swap the whole head over. 1.6 xsis had domed pistons and used that head with no issues, vtrs have flat ones so I dont think there should be any problems

11th April 2012, 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

I have a fully rebuilt rallye head with j cam for sale, its done 6 mile since the rebuild

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

I also have a turbo conversion for sale

how much? very interested mate in either or both lol

11th April 2012, 21:29

head is £100 delivered,

turbo kit im tempted to let go for £1100 delivered to shift it, full custom made stainless set up, t25 turbo, full 2.5" turbo back stainless exhaust, decompression plate, boost pipes and i/c, boost controller, ..made 218bhp/230lbft on my vtr

11th April 2012, 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

head is £100 delivered,

turbo kit im tempted to let go for £1100 delivered to shift it, full custom made stainless set up, t25 turbo, full 2.5" turbo back stainless exhaust, decompression plate, boost pipes and i/c, boost controller, ..made 218bhp/230lbft on my vtr

is the head a good way to go on a vtr? or cams? am new to the sax stuff like wat heads and bits on what etc..

would love to have turbo kit but wifes lookin very unhappy at that msg and will prob end in divorce

...but on other hand would have a wicked lil sax

11th April 2012, 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

head is £100 delivered,

turbo kit im tempted to let go for £1100 delivered to shift it, full custom made stainless set up, t25 turbo, full 2.5" turbo back stainless exhaust, decompression plate, boost pipes and i/c, boost controller, ..made 218bhp/230lbft on my vtr

oo can afford that (both) but think i will leave it (sax needs new rear axel)

bet both will sell quick

11th April 2012, 23:49

To be fair you'll sell the head again easy enough if you get bored of 8v, they are in demand on the right forums at least

12th April 2012, 17:55

I disagree lads, I fitted piper 285, to my silvertop and has been great fun, done it all myself and that made it even better I think( cheaper) , all I will say is that when you have the head off have it skimmed the min clean the ports out/ get rid off bits of sloppy cast, lap the valves in after you clean them, and will be much sharper, done 3000 mile not mapped or even timed to piper spec, never had a prob, runs perfect, if doing yourself won't cost more then 400, I think tho all engines differ in performance even as standard