Rallye head on mk2 VTR bottom end - Experience

  1. Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 Somewhere between Bedford and Brixworth Posts: 2373 106 XS 16v Driveway Ornament
    #1
    Hi guys,

    I am looking for people with hands-on experience of the S1 head on the mk2 bottom end. People who have been there, done it and ideally, have ran an aftermarket cam instead of the J cam.

    If anyone wants to own up and doesn't mind a quick chat it would be grand.

    Mike
  2. Frequent Poster Joined: Apr 2012 Bradford/Leeds Posts: 775 03 R53 Mini Cooper S with a little extra going on
    #2
    Talk to blackie_2K he sold me mine that I sold before doing it.
  3. Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 Somewhere between Bedford and Brixworth Posts: 2373 106 XS 16v Driveway Ornament
    #3
    Alternatively if anyone knows the piston-valve clearance for the later mk2 block with JP4-stamped pistons that'll help as well.
  4. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2007 Shropshire Posts: 9994 Moonstone Blue 106 GTi
    #4
    guy on moaners did it to good effect sudds, went pretty well think he had a mild cam in there aswell mk2 bottom end iirc had the flat top or very slightly raised dish pistons so c/r bit higher
  5. Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 Somewhere between Bedford and Brixworth Posts: 2373 106 XS 16v Driveway Ornament
    #5
    Yeah Gav that's what I'm looking at. The JP4 pistons in the JP4 and late mk2 are the raised ones - but obviously want to play safe and make sure there's no clearance issues with a higher-lift cam.

    But the best bet is someone who's done it hands-on in case there are any issues with detonation or anything like that. I know the XSi runs 10.2 CR as standard and the JP4 pistons will add another ~0.5 so just trying to do my research before I build it and it knocks itself to death.

    On the other hand lord knows how many miles my J2 block has done. I'll see if Sudds can help me out
  6. Regular Poster Joined: Jan 2012 hemel Hempstead Posts: 413 l200 worrior saxo vtr stock hatch Seat leon 20v
    #6
    There is two types of late pistons
    long skirt raised 0.75 mm stamped 062 11
    Short skirt raised 0.75 mm stamped 390 15
    the short skirt have less resistance

    manic
  7. Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 Somewhere between Bedford and Brixworth Posts: 2373 106 XS 16v Driveway Ornament
    #7
    Awesome manic - good to know
  8. Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 Somewhere between Bedford and Brixworth Posts: 2373 106 XS 16v Driveway Ornament
    #8
    Quick bump in search of advice?
  9. Established Member Joined: Jan 2012 south essex!! Posts: 2442 posi blue vtrs race car
    #9
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by manic View Post
    There is two types of late pistons
    long skirt raised 0.75 mm stamped 062 11
    Short skirt raised 0.75 mm stamped 390 15
    the short skirt have less resistance

    manic
    Slutty pistons new are like rocking horse shit now... Mahle do a version of the slutty piston... Forged and everything... I dont know the valve clearances but an 11mm lift cam dont touch the piston... If its not 11 its 10.6mm... One or the other...

    Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
  10. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B
    #10
    i never ran it tbh

    mine was turbo set up that wasnt running right and only done 6 miles..so cant really comment

    you meaning the 3 plug bottom end? as mine was the 90bhp as well..CR is diff irrc?

    ppl have run decent set ups with those heads/cam and the 1.6 bottom end

    EDIT- from what ive seen though..no point in changing the cam from the J cam as gains seem to be similar to a ph3 spec with similar mods
  11. Established Member Joined: Jan 2012 south essex!! Posts: 2442 posi blue vtrs race car
    #11
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by blackie_2k5 View Post
    i never ran it tbh

    mine was turbo set up that wasnt running right and only done 6 miles..so cant really comment

    you meaning the 3 plug bottom end? as mine was the 90bhp as well..CR is diff irrc?

    ppl have run decent set ups with those heads/cam and the 1.6 bottom end
    The crank throw is the same irrc but the head combustion chamber is different please correct me if im wong but the later 98bhp had a more flat face head upping the cr...

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  12. Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 Somewhere between Bedford and Brixworth Posts: 2373 106 XS 16v Driveway Ornament
    #12
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by greyjasper51 View Post
    The crank throw is the same irrc but the head combustion chamber is different please correct me if im wong but the later 98bhp had a more flat face head upping the cr...

    Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
    That's correct, and the primary reason I'm looking into this.

    90bhp TU5JP bottom ends are basically identical to the TU5J2 Rallye ones. The pistons have different markings but both have about a roughly .5mm dish.

    Gav, seen Sudds made a post on owners saying his one was fine, so that's a green light. Have PM'd him for more details though
  13. Established Member Joined: Jan 2012 south essex!! Posts: 2442 posi blue vtrs race car
    #13
    As far as i know most fast road/track or rally cams dont need cut out pistons, only when you start having idling problems on a savage rally cam is when you need a cut away piston... What cam you looking at?

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  14. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B
    #14
    that's why ive always strayed away from boosting the newer engines...the older ones are proven to be strong and last...the newer ones are proven to have a weaker top end
  15. Established Member Joined: Jan 2012 south essex!! Posts: 2442 posi blue vtrs race car
    #15
    Yeah tbh for n/a the newer topend with fixed rockers is the future however me personally cant run it im in need of a 106 rallye big valve (and port if im correct) head... Un molested :-)

    Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
  16. Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 Somewhere between Bedford and Brixworth Posts: 2373 106 XS 16v Driveway Ornament
    #16
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by greyjasper51 View Post
    As far as i know most fast road/track or rally cams dont need cut out pistons, only when you start having idling problems on a savage rally cam is when you need a cut away piston... What cam you looking at?

    Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
    At the moment just the Rallye head, standard J cam with the mk2 bottom end.

    I have the Rallye head on a XSi 1600 bottom end running nicely at the moment, just looking for a lower-miles end with the bonus of extra compression.

    I might look into a Newman Ph2 or similar later on.

    Anyway, for the moment I'm looking for people who have been there and done it as far as the S1 head/mk2 bottom end is concerned, so I can be sure of the clearance issue. In the kindest way, general engine discussion isn't really helpful at this point in time.
  17. Established Member Joined: Jan 2012 south essex!! Posts: 2442 posi blue vtrs race car
    #17
    Stock hatch lads run the rallye head with the kc750 cam off the limit weekend in and weekend out no problem on the standard piston if you go to kent cams and look at the lift on the kc750 cam that runs good on std flat top pistons and with std intake and exhaust manifold runs 120ish bhp

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  18. Infrequent Poster Joined: May 2012 Posts: 195
    #18
    I'll let you know how I get on when I get my furio running with the rallye head haha, only bought the head for the J cam so it's stayed and engine turns over fine by hand. Turning out to be a right pain in the arse as I've had to change loads of different things that I didn't realise before. Hopefully it runs when I'm done tho, getting worried now that I've done all this work and it's gonna run like shit.
  19. Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 Somewhere between Bedford and Brixworth Posts: 2373 106 XS 16v Driveway Ornament
    #19
    Spoonal, are you running the 1.3 loom and ECU?

    It'll run on that with the 1.4 bottom end. But will be lower comp than the 1.3 despite the extra cc so don't expect anything more than 100bhp peak.
  20. Infrequent Poster Joined: May 2012 Posts: 195
    #20
    Tbh I wasn't even expecting 100. Was hoping it would run on my ecu as it's a single plug and I've swopped my sensors for the ones on my throttle body etc. Don't know what my throttle body is though as it doesn't look the same as other pics I've seen with s1 intakes. Only thing I'm not sure on is the injectors, the wiring it came with had a different connector so I swopped it over with the wiring from my old injectors so don't know if that will work on not and then have a dastek so sort out timing etc. Just need a decent exhaust mani.
  21. Regular Poster Joined: Sep 2015 Posts: 269 106 Rallye
    #21
    Ever get any more information on this @Mikol?
  22. Established Member Joined: Jun 2008 Somewhere between Bedford and Brixworth Posts: 2373 106 XS 16v Driveway Ornament
    #22
    Woah, blast from the past.

    I actually went on the build this. I ran the 1.6 8v head & 1.3 inlet on a 1.6 bottom end from a TU5JP4 16v. I ran it with a 1.4-1.6mm head gasket and never had any issues with clearances.

    It ran fine... until it didn't. It eventually blew a small chunk out of the cylinder liner on cylinder 4 (or 1 if you're PSA). This led to an intermittent misfire and I stripped it.

    I've since re-homed the bottom end running gear into another block. Rather coincidentally, I only scrapped the chipped block yesterday.

    It was a fun little project.
  23. Regular Poster Joined: Sep 2015 Posts: 269 106 Rallye
    #23
    that's what I want to hear.

    My TU2J2 (1.3 8v) needs rings and a headgasket, both of which are either impossible to get or stupidly expensive. I've managed to pick up a silvertop VTR engine for less than the cost of the 1.3 headgasket and was going to swap out the bottom ends.

    So it would be:

    1.3 Head (faces skimmed), Inlet, 4-2-1 manifold, sensors, ECU & wiring loom
    1.6 VTR block
    1.6mm MLS head gasket.

    This should all work pretty easily, right?

    Cheers for replying.
  24. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2003 Scotland Posts: 3380
    #24
    CORRECT ADVICE IS TO DO A DRY BUILD WITH CLAY ON TOP OF PISTON
    turn over by hand 2 turns then lift head and see how thick clay has been squished byvalves --then you will know what gasket you can fit --maybe you can fit thinner gasket ?--
  25. Regular Poster Joined: Sep 2015 Posts: 269 106 Rallye
    #25
    That was my plan before starting it! I'm sending the head of to a local shop to get faced and the valve seats replaced, last thing I want is to bend valves afterward.

    I think the 1.6 VTR pistons are domed and there's a 1.6mm MLS gasket with the engine. I think once the heads had a skim and the 1.6mm gasket goes on the valve/piston clearance will be minimal as it is.

    Should there be any issues with wiring? I'm pretty sure my oil pressure/temp gauge wont work on the dash but hopefully the water temp sensor etc will all just plug in to the rallye loom.
  26. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2003 Scotland Posts: 3380
    #26
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Synister View Post
    That was my plan before starting it! I'm sending the head of to a local shop to get faced and the valve seats replaced, last thing I want is to bend valves afterward.

    I think the 1.6 VTR pistons are domed and there's a 1.6mm MLS gasket with the engine. I think once the heads had a skim and the 1.6mm gasket goes on the valve/piston clearance will be minimal as it is.

    Should there be any issues with wiring? I'm pretty sure my oil pressure/temp gauge wont work on the dash but hopefully the water temp sensor etc will all just plug in to the rallye loom.
    you do it using old h/gasket +just tighten bolts down --no need for torqueing --only a 30min job --so worth doing to be sure 2mm is sensible clearance for normal springs(green ones)-not later whit ones , --maybe you will then want to make "eybrows" in pistons so you can use thinner gasket --compression is everything on an 8v
    vtr pistons are not what i would call domed -they are nearly flat on later engine and early are flat
    we used to whack 2 mm off heads as a starting point on 8v,s with big lumpy pistons and eyebrow cuts in pistons
  27. Regular Poster Joined: Sep 2015 Posts: 269 106 Rallye
    #27
    Thanks for the info John, It's much appreciated.

    I think notching the pistons is beyond my level of mechanical prowess. I know the theory and practice behind it, I just don't think I would trust myself.

    I was only taking a mild skim off the faces off the head to make them all true again so 2mm would be far too much. That said, I don't know how many times the head has been skimmed in the past.

    I'm not doing this to gain any sort of power. It's just a stopgap until I get the TU2J2 built up again (Although, that'll probably take me 6-12 months to do)
  28. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2003 Scotland Posts: 3380
    #28
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Synister View Post
    Thanks for the info John, It's much appreciated.

    I think notching the pistons is beyond my level of mechanical prowess. I know the theory and practice behind it, I just don't think I would trust myself.

    I was only taking a mild skim off the faces off the head to make them all true again so 2mm would be far too much. That said, I don't know how many times the head has been skimmed in the past.

    I'm not doing this to gain any sort of power. It's just a stopgap until I get the TU2J2 built up again (Although, that'll probably take me 6-12 months to do)
    std head starts at 111mm -so you can check how much is off it --chances are it will only be the inlet side --depending on your cam choice at thislevel of tune -worth a check anyway
    when you go that far --still got my 8v piston jig --all i need you to do is tell me how deep and use old valve made into a centre punch and mark centre on pistons by dropping down guide when you do your next engine
  29. Regular Poster Joined: Sep 2015 Posts: 269 106 Rallye
    #29
    It's the standard 1.3 'J' cam. I've seen people notching pistons before but I just know I'd balls it up and the TU2 would be near impossible to get pistons for without spending a fortune and buying omegas (etc.)

    I'll speak to the company that are doing my machine work on the head and see what they think about notching the pistons. Shame I wasn't in Scotland or I would have brought it over to you, not a lot of people over here know their way around the TU's (apart from S Gault of course.)