Bore wash -updated

19th July 2012, 21:43

right..if you dont have experience please dont post

as some may know im having issues with smoke on the over run after a top end rebuild due to a dropped valve

when i first got it back together and running there was no smoke but i knew the fueling was bad

after about 100 miles or so im getting smoke on the over run..at first i thought turbo but then dismissed this as its only on high vacuum it happens

then thought stem seals/guides or an oil ring..but its a rebuilt head that had no issues before..and rings were fine before

i havent actually done much yet as im at a cross roads at where the probs lie and whether to just replace the engine

when i put it back together it would not idle as id fixed all the inlet leaks i had..andy tried to sort my idle over the net..think he richened it up a bit lower down to get it to idle (i have no WB on at present so he was doing what he could over the net)

BUT...the car is massively over fuelling..its been running rich a while up top(4k or above)..but seems ALOT worse since the rebuild (it last got remapped with a hole in the boost pipe i was unaware of so when it was replaced it was a mile out) plan was remap asap soon as the engine was sorted again, but my clutch cable snapped 5 mins into the mapping session two weeks ago

i then realised the extent it was over fuelling the other day when i done a compression test.. all cylinders were about 180-190psi within 5 cranks so comp seems good!!

but the plugs were blacker then ive EVER seen a set..and had so much carbon build up i was surprised it was running at all!! ive only done about 500 miles since the rebuild at which point the plugs where fine

so where my current thinking is...

the oil im using is quite thin anyway (5/40) this was just temp to flush with a new filter after a few hundred miles till i developed the smoke!

(dont get smoke till car is warm) but is running so rich at the min it splutters like fuck till its warm... thinking the oil is being diluted to fuck and the vacuum is either pulling it past the stems or the rings??

the longer i drive it..the worse the smoke gets??

long read but id like some thoughts on the matter so a good back ground is needed

think this is my prob? im reluctant to waste a mapping session while the car is smoking the way it is..but dont wanna have to buy/sort an engine if it doesnt need one

19th July 2012, 22:22

probably np use to you at all but i had a nice bit of bore wash when my car was unmapped, drove it far too much and its destroyed my rings, my catch tank fills up reptty quickly and if i drive high in the rev range the oil comes out the dip stick and covers the botom of the bonent in oil

hoping to get a new bottom end as soon as i get paid then i can fianlly stop buying oil and having to stop cleaning my engine bay lol

dose your oil system pressurise?

19th July 2012, 22:28

i think it is mate..bore wash normally causes it

thats why im thinking this is my prob..it normally pushes the oil out of everywhere it can..my bottom end never used to breath well before but now i seem to have melted the plastic top on my dipstick..probs the hot fuel/oil vapour rotting it away with the crank case pressure..looks like it may be squirting vapours out of my oil fller cap as well..as there seems to be some oilly residue and dust stuck all round it

i think i may be ok if i get it mapped ASAP and run some thicker oil

thats what you should do for time being mate..thicker oil helps cars with worn rings

20th July 2012, 04:39

On my vtr it was well over fueling and diluting the oil and then also fill my catch tank too. my mechanic said this and that it will glaze the bores so you wont get a good seal resulting in more fuel going in the oil and oil being sucked past the rings.
the way to sort this is to fit new rings and hone the bore to roughen it up a bit.
hope this is not the case as its loads of work
does the car sit about for long periods of time. as the bores are slighly tapered the rings can get stuck in and this can also cause a slight slackness again resulting in oil being sucked past

manic

20th July 2012, 08:26

what you describe is typical of bore wash
I am guessing oil smells of petrol which makes the oil go thin
10-40 semi synthetic is correct oil for tu5 --not fully synthetic and not thinner
you can run thicker it will not cause a problem and will help with oil consumption
the reasons for using very thin oils is to cut down friction -- If you are boosted so that isn,t a measurable amount of extra drag ,you won,t even be revving very high with a turbo + extra pressure in cylinder from the boost will increase any "blow -by " dramatically
-

have you done a cylinder leakge test ?--not a compression test --
have you fitted plastic cam box covers to a j4 head?
that will show everything you need to know
perfect engine 2-4% leakage
anything over 15% will start to be a problem
running engine too cold will also not help as forged pistons are made with more clearance ,so they will always expand more than std cast type ,hence sometimes rattly or slight smoke when engine cold and it heals up as engine warms up
you could build an engine to run at 75 c ,but all clearances would need to be different

I am guessing you are not running an AFR gauge ,as you would have seen it over fuelling

running a w/b with gauge may seem like a waste of money but it gives you a check on whats happening and also allows you to check if the mapper got the fuellng right
the money for a w./b gauge would have saved you alot more money than it has and will cost you to fix the problem

20th July 2012, 13:10

Thank John, just the reply I needed

It's an 8valve so no just running Stock size cam breather with correct sized piping

I've not done a leakage test... iwill get on it, the oil I'm running was just temp for a few hundred miles so I could flush the system and put a new filter on, before putting some decent oil in

It's not forged, currently double h/g.. The oil seems pretty thin and the whole car stinks of fuel

I did have wide band but I decided I was selling up not long ago and it was one of the first things that went, not yet replaced it.. But I will be looking at an aem w/b kit ASAP

So I think my next plan is to get it booked in for a map ASAP and flush the oil and filters and bang some fresh plugs in

20th July 2012, 13:12

Blackie are you using a decomp plate?

20th July 2012, 13:44

No not any more

Just been and checked the oil again.. It's like water after a short drive, do looks Like I've found my prob

Whether or not it's too late is a diff matter, see what happens after a map

21st July 2012, 18:23

i've seen a few cars massively overfuel with poor quality aftermarket fuel regulators....
but when you get the car map that will flag up very quickly if its the case.

21st July 2012, 23:02

Not got after market reg on mate

It's basically as the map is so far out, the intitial map was done but I had a rather large hole in my boost pipe

I fixed that and It ran rich after 3-4k onwards

I also had a few other leaks, have since fixed these and now it's ridiculously out, just hoping its not too far gone

22nd July 2012, 00:03

Prolonged bore wash :

22nd July 2012, 09:52

That your car Ross? I'm hoping it's ok as its only been smoking about 350 miles

Only doing short necessary journeys at the min.. Son fingers crossed

22nd July 2012, 13:47

Yes mate was my car at one point!

This is it now mind you... machine honed, not hand "deglazed"...

23rd July 2012, 19:31

my guess is its too late --the rings will need changing at least and bores will need glaze busting + honed.
presuming of course the bores are still within tolerance to suit the pistons you have fitted.
I did the same thing on my race car --over 20years ago --running it in on the road ,light throttle cruise in the winter ,but i forgot that the water temp correction had not been set and it was running cold ,around 65c--,just 100 miles was enough to wreck the rings totally
i now alwaysset water temp correction to zero above 50c water temp.as its combustion temp not water temp thats important and tat gets up to temp alot quicker than water temp.
If you had been running your w/b ,ideally in closed loop with the ecu ,then it would have stopped that happening or at least you would have seen the over richness on the gauge ,

ROSS
i think the marks on the bore is actually a waterer mark from the engine being stopped for a long time and getting corroded between piton and bore where engine was stopped or after a h/gasket blow and being stood for sometime .
a cylinder leqakge test will show it all

23rd July 2012, 19:39

its just a standard lump with double head gasket so ill just fit another if its too far gone

not got the time at the min so ill get it mapped and see how it goes..if nothing else it last long enough to get another engine ready to drop

john...my car seems to idle quite high after its warmed up fully and you knock it then off, and start driving again..doesnt always do it..but generally if ive got it up to temp..got out, then back in..itll idle quite high untill its been driven a while..or even for the full length of a journey

think this is down to warm up enrichment? not seeing that its already up to temp? ive had two diff temp sensors in so i know its not the sensors...but possibly the enrichment or a fault with the ecu???

23rd July 2012, 21:58

to be fair your kind off asking for problems running that many miles on such a bad map and is it worth mapping a car with a posibly damaged bottom end to replace it and be in the exact same position you are now?

24th July 2012, 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

ROSS
i think the marks on the bore is actually a waterer mark from the engine being stopped for a long time and getting corroded between piton and bore where engine was stopped or after a h/gasket blow and being stood for sometime .
a cylinder leqakge test will show it all

I was posting to show the mirror like finish on the bores. Not so worried about the marks, but the glaze is horrific!

24th July 2012, 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigezz

to be fair your kind off asking for problems running that many miles on such a bad map and is it worth mapping a car with a posibly damaged bottom end to replace it and be in the exact same position you are now?

Not really..

I only have one car at the min, so I haven't other options, my mapper is busy

On good terms so the maps only cost me £80-130 dependant on how long it takes

If I pay the map and it's too far gone.. I'll have a very close map for the new engine, that will only need minor tweaks once it's fitted..

So if I have to wait a week or two before I can get the new engine map tweaked..then the new engine isn't going to suffer the same fate in the mean tine

24th July 2012, 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by RossDagley

I was posting to show the mirror like finish on the bores. Not so worried about the marks, but the glaze is horrific!

Yes i understand thats why you posted it ,but i didn,t want people to think that mark on the bore was "bore wash"
your other picture is good showing how rough a proper hone looks to the eye

19th August 2012, 00:20

update time

thought id be helpful since no one follows up problem threads!

i dropped the oil..it stunk of fuel..which cemented the rings being cooked theory. So i changed the oil to thicker in the hope it would give me a few more weeks/month to sort the engine..it didnt lol

i bought a new dailly and pulled the engine out..after two weeks of no driving and moving it across the carpark i was greeted with this:

doesnt seem to be any major scoring but the rings are goosed..it was smoking like a locomotive when i last used it..block is totally ruined as well. There was no hint of wear 1k ago..now the block has a speed bump at TDC

so in short... mapping is essential

wide bands can save you alot of money..

19th August 2012, 06:53

I wouldn't use a lc1 wide band...... Mine always over heat/shut down. But now it stop altogether.

19th August 2012, 20:16

I won't be mate cheers for the heads up

Will be getting an aem one as they're self calibrating and get good press, seem to hear nothing but complaints about the innovates this last year

20th August 2012, 18:55

there may be a newer version of the ECU firmware I can load onto your ECU for you, which can improve idle massively, and has a few other tricks going on, also I can set your idle fuelling and part throttle without a wideband if that helps you at all?

Andy

20th August 2012, 19:18

Was that not what you changed last time?

20th August 2012, 19:34

that was a long time ago now!!

Let me get back on it and have another look

20th August 2012, 20:52

With the LC1 wideband I was having major issues, A firmware upgrade on the LC1 Controller sorts it, With mines I kept getting Error 8's, Mines was originally on firmware 1.10, Upgrade to 1.20 and replace the sensor itself and all your problems like mines should disappear,

You can also downgrade to 1.00 and this also fixes the problem but an upgrade is recommended as once you downgrade you cannot upgrade,

And can't recommend Andy and his ECU's enough, Top Guy!!

20th August 2012, 21:09

Andy how would I find out what firmware mine is on?

20th August 2012, 21:12

The LC-1 has its own software on the CD, or you can download it. Then when you run the software you can see the firmware

20th August 2012, 21:29

As Andy said but I used the Innovate LC1 forums and website, Downloaded the latest firmware and software

The 1.20 firmware isnt listed on the website you need to contact support for it or search for a thread on the forums with it

also sorry for the thread Hijack.

20th August 2012, 21:33

LC-1 is directly relevent to bore-wash as it's a tool which will show the signs of it very clearly if configured and used correctly, so not thread hijack at all!!

20th August 2012, 21:53

On another note,

My lc-1 and xd-16 Gauge worked as well as the day I bought them after 30k,

On the same sensor,

Dunno how people have hassle or so many fail maybe I bought a random good one lol?

But I also have an aem one now as I have the lc-1 setup to check other people's setups

21st August 2012, 07:31

Could be your Wideband controller has firmware 1.00 or 1.20 as when I was on the innovate forums the people that were having problems all had 1.10 on they're controller like mines,

Once they released the updated firmware I replaced the sensor and updated the firmware, Not had a problem since, If you look on the innovate forums there is loads of threads on this issue.

28th August 2012, 22:41

Back together

New bottom end.. Soon as it was up to temp it was exactly the same as it was previous to stripping it

So it wasn't the rings

28th August 2012, 23:23

thats gutting mate

but when you said to me that your compression was 170-180 across the lot a short while back i thought it seemed a bit strange

any other ideas on the situation? Does it still boost as it should?

28th August 2012, 23:26

What's exhaust side of turbo like? Haven't got any oil in one of the exhaust boxes have you?

28th August 2012, 23:34

my thinking is back to valve stems tbh..i dont think its the turbo..

looking back at the pics on page 1..cylinders 1..3..4 are carbon'd up due to the rich running..and cylinder 2 is full of oil..

no smoke on idle..lots of blip of throttle..overrun..

i think one of the new seals i fitted was fucked and ive been convinced it was rings

28th August 2012, 23:37

Oh Blackie, good old Saxos

29th August 2012, 00:50

A valve stem problem would tend to constantly allow oil into the bore. And usually smokes as soon as u start the car not so much when warm.

29th August 2012, 00:59

basically this :

but not as bad as that yet..on vacuum..i get clouds..once warmed up when the oil is thin

going back to page one..looks like cylinder 2

29th August 2012, 01:04

Ive just had the same issue. It turned out to be the ring gaps.
But wen i had valve stem problem. Oil leeks through over night into the bore.
And smokes alot on first start up. U can see oil on the valve stems through the exhaust or inlet ports before u strip head off if it comes to that. Might atleast save u a gasket and bolts???

29th August 2012, 01:12

well its got a new bottom end so i know its not that lol

i know what your saying buddy...normally cracked old stems do that..these were fitted new when i rebuilt the head..but do remember one of the springs fired off and had to refit it

alot of times once the oil is up to temp and thinned down..the high vacuum sucks the oil past the stem seals..which i think is whats happening

it could still be the turbo..but i have a spare here anyway to try..i just think its the stems tbh

29th August 2012, 01:23

I know how ur feelin dude. I was at a loss for months and it was emvarressing putting my foot down with all the smoke lol. Hope it gets figured out sokn m8. Dont give up

29th August 2012, 07:33

Said smoke... Is ten times worse when driving a let foot off and back on
Edit- upload failed

29th August 2012, 08:07

Doesn't add up,

I've seen engines run with no stem seals that only smoked the tiniest amount,
I think something else is at fault.

29th August 2012, 08:17

I have a spare turbo

I'll try it

New bottom end.. Can't be a venting issue as it ran fine for a year with same set up

29th August 2012, 11:01

To add another small update to this.. Car failed mot this morning.. No surprises there

When driving it it smokes.. If you pull over and blip the throttle it smokes..

When left on the ramps running for a while it doesn't smoke at all.. And can be revved with no appearance smoke :/

29th August 2012, 19:11

fuck me what an absolute head twist...... ive kind of run out of ideas, but do you reckon theres a small chance youve bought a fucked bottom end? if its been left running for a while and then revved with no smoke then id say its a good chance its a stem seal..... on the old bottom end did the smoking ever get worse or did it stay at a constant level?

Do you think you could just be burning off the old oil left in the exhaust system from the previous engine?

edit: just realized ive just asked near enough the same questions as whats been asked in your progress thread

30th August 2012, 00:03

indeed mate...well ive got the old turbo off..still not convinced this is my prob..looking at the EX turbing its all black soot..but behind it i can see fresh oil..this means nothing as if it IS stems..it will still come through that way..however wobbling the turbine shaft does indicate lots of play..and squelches with every movement lol

this was this morn outside test centre:

this was a bit later when i went back for restest but the cunt was shut :/

this was when i got back to work:

30th August 2012, 00:06

(Tappets havent been adjusted yet hence noise)

30th August 2012, 08:39

you need to strip it find the problem -broken rings? rings seized in piastons due to lack of good oil (thinned down by over fuelling )
get it stripped .
looks alot more srious than just rings not sealing

do a clinder leakge test before stripping that will tell you if it is piston/bore problems and nor something else confusing the diagnosis.
If its a 16v and you have swopped cam covers to plastic type and or have used a jp4 head with alloy covers then it could be the cam breather holes don,t line up --causing crankcase to pressurize.
do you have lots of breathing from crankcase breather pipe on the back cam cover breather?

30th August 2012, 11:19

It's a totall new bottom end John

Same head, same turbo, head was rebuilt prior to fitting to old block, done 60 miles and started smoking, over a few weeks it got to the
The stage it is in the vids

So I put a new bottom end in it.. Started up.. Soon as it warmed up that's what happened ^^^^

It's an 8v running standard rocker breather with no crank breather.. Ran this way for a year with no problems.. So don't see why all of a sudden it should change.. Nothing is blocked

30th August 2012, 11:44

Dont mean to be a broken record but still smacks of exhaust side oil coming from turbo

can you remove the turbo put stock
Manifold on and warm it up?

30th August 2012, 12:53

I have the turbo off, will be replacing it later

There is a small amount of fresh oil behind the turbine on the ex side.. But even if it were coming out of the engine it would have to be there

30th August 2012, 13:11

Fresh oil from the engine wont be in the exhaust, the combustion would have burnt it, fresh oil in the turbo exhaust side would only be from the turbo

30th August 2012, 13:43

Not at the rate it's leaking mate lol

When I pulled the head off the old engine there was a few pools of oil on the cylinders.. Still have no explanation of how this came to be here if I still have smoke

30th August 2012, 13:50

What if the old engine had died, *and* the turbo was in poor condition? Now you replaced the bottom end but the turbo is now showing up?

The only real test is to fit a stock manifold back and block the oil feed to the turbo, and run her up

Is that a test you can perform easily enough?

30th August 2012, 14:09

No mate I don't have a manifold or an ecu I can run it on.. Can't see it running at all on the turbo map

I'll try the other turbo on Monday, was gonna do it tonight but I have lots to do before Trax and the Saxo 100% won't be there so I'll have a few days off and it might calm me down a bit

Spent most of my week off working on it and fee like I've been totally robbed tbf

30th August 2012, 14:15

The 7psi turbo map should run if perfectly, that's no problem as it should know how much air is going in, and if not I can remote in and sort that no problem!

30th August 2012, 14:19

I'll try the new turbo and see what happens, it's pretty much ready to bolt on now

Will move from there afterwards

31st August 2012, 15:21

gutted for you matey, if i was home i would of been over to lend a pair of hands. im back on wednesday night and dont go on my jollies until the 10th, so if you need a hand over a few days feel free to give me a shout on facebook, wont be a problem ;D. i know whatits like, feels like you constantly banging your head of a wall lol. helping out wont be a problem, only down the road ;D.

31st August 2012, 15:24

Cheers mate, I'll probs be cracking on with it over next weekend like

If so I'll gve you a shout if your not to busy

31st August 2012, 15:34

i wont be to busy, only got to pack my bags for going away on the jollies, but im an expert at packing, i do it every other week 30mins before i leave for the train to aberdeen ;D

not a problem, during the day or a late one, ne bother ;D
might spur me on to get cracking with mine ;D lol