TU5JP4S, cams - what fits?

1. welshpug Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2010 South Wales Posts: 3078 ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.

   #1 17th October 2012, 15:56

   Pretty simple question really, what will the standard JP4S C2 VTS valvetrain tolerate, and also how much space is there at TDC?
   
   A friend has a C2 Code (LTD ed VTS) and wants to make it go faster
   
   So please suggest a Newman, piper or Kent profile that'd be suitable for him.
   
   Newman list:
   
   PH1, 256 deg, 8.68 max lift, 0.87 @ TDC, 18-58 opening/closing and 110 deg peak.
   
   PH3, 264 deg, 9.01 max lift, 1.55 @ TDC, 22-62 opening/closing and 110 deg peak.
   
   £300 the pair which is a lot less than I'm used to seeing, coming form Knowing XU's.
   
   Edit, Piper dont list any.
   
   Kent only list a VERY mild one for the JP4, which would only take it up to standard JP4S power level, 240 degree, 8.53 peak lift, 0.53 @ tdc inlet, 0.35 exhaust. 10-50 degree opening, measured at 0.1mm.
2. welshpug Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2010 South Wales Posts: 3078 ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.

   #2 18th October 2012, 13:32

   anyone?!
3. Bobo0907 Frequent Poster Joined: May 2010 North East Scotland Posts: 686 Inferno 182, S2 Indigo Rallye

   #3 18th October 2012, 16:42

   Catcams make the 705's which are made for the JP4. Not sure on specs though? Worth finding out?
4. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

   #4 18th October 2012, 17:01

   There are a few issues with the C2 VTS. Firstly the springs are weak, limiting cam profiles as you get valve bounce at high rpm. Also the throttle is fly by wire so has a fit when anything half decent is used.
   
   The Cat Cams 1323703 is about the limit you can run on a standard engine and ecu.
   To compare this is INTAKE 248° , EXHAUST 240°, with 9.5mm inlet valve lift and 9.15mm exhaust
   
   I'm not convinced Newman has ever tested their camshaft profile to get it running on a standard ecu.
   
   Kev
5. welshpug Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2010 South Wales Posts: 3078 ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.

   #5 18th October 2012, 18:33

   but they're different springs to the VTR JP4 engine, is it still the case they are weaker than the J4 106/saxo engine?
   
   not wanting to use cat tbh.
6. xsi16v Regular Poster Joined: Jan 2006 Ilkeston, Derbyshire Posts: 469 374 bhp Supercharged 205 GTI, Passat Estate

   #6 18th October 2012, 18:43

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by welshpug but they're different springs to the VTR JP4 engine, is it still the case they are weaker than the J4 106/saxo engine? not wanting to use cat tbh.

   I'd guess so. Even though the lift is slightly more on the JP4s cams to the J4's, C2 VTS's dont rev as high. That'll be the reason for the weaker springs.
7. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

   #7 20th October 2012, 19:00

   They are certainly not as strong as the saxo ones so the same issue applies as the VTR. To be honest the main issue is the ecu and fly by wire. This is limiting what the engine can do first...
8. consvts Frequent Poster Joined: Jul 2012 mayo Posts: 564 92 honda civic eg 4 99 Citroen saxo vts

   #8 20th October 2012, 19:08

   i was thinking of a jp4 conversion after reading this would best thing to do be replace the springs with uprated ones?
9. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

   #9 20th October 2012, 19:13

   depends on what cam you want to run. You can use saxo springs as a cheap upgrade.
10. consvts Frequent Poster Joined: Jul 2012 mayo Posts: 564 92 honda civic eg 4 99 Citroen saxo vts

    #10 20th October 2012, 19:16

    would they hold a turbo on top tho?your kam racing springs would work wouldnlt they?
11. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #11 20th October 2012, 19:44

    We are talking engine valvetrain right? The springs that control the valves..
12. consvts Frequent Poster Joined: Jul 2012 mayo Posts: 564 92 honda civic eg 4 99 Citroen saxo vts

    #12 20th October 2012, 19:45

    ya i was thinking of rebuilding the hold head any way with racing valves aswell
13. user_29491 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2008 Lancs Posts: 4124 JP4S'd R.

    #13 20th October 2012, 19:46

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by xsi16v I'd guess so. Even though the lift is slightly more on the JP4s cams to the J4's, C2 VTS's dont rev as high. That'll be the reason for the weaker springs.

    Standard C2 VTS limiter is 7200, C2 VTR limiter 6500
    
    I believe i have the VTS engine but haven't checked, Either way it gets rev'd to 7k often. Even hit the limiter by accident in the heat of action a few times (7600rpm) no tapping / problems
14. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #14 20th October 2012, 19:59

    The standard camshaft is relatively short duration compared to the newman camshaft profiles. This is where issues will occur. The standard engine can cope with its internals.
15. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #15 20th October 2012, 20:39

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by saxova Standard C2 VTS limiter is 7200, C2 VTR limiter 6500 I believe i have the VTS engine but haven't checked, Either way it gets rev'd to 7k often. Even hit the limiter by accident in the heat of action a few times (7600rpm) no tapping / problems

    just a case of as and when not every time mate
    
    my vtr ran fine for ages with the shitty silvertop springs..hit the limiter a few times when playing with other cars and had no issues
    
    then one day got valve bounce and clattered piston number 3 with an inlet valve
    
    
16. user_32315 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2009 Uppingham, Rutland Posts: 9569 mk1 JP4'd VTR, '16 Fabia Monte Carlo

    #16 21st October 2012, 09:55

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Bobo0907 Catcams make the 705's which are made for the JP4. Not sure on specs though? Worth finding out?

    they have the same lift and duration as the saxo 708 cam, i think im right in thinking they are the same except that the cams are offset to sit over the jp4 followers correctly however these do need the saxo j4 followers, retainers and valve springs as well as an aftermarket ecu
17. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #17 21st October 2012, 10:12

    the Cat Cams 1322705 is not for use with standard C2 valve springs or standard throttlebody/ECU.
    
    It does work well on the saxo where you can swap the springs and run a saxo inlet / ecu
18. user_32315 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2009 Uppingham, Rutland Posts: 9569 mk1 JP4'd VTR, '16 Fabia Monte Carlo

    #18 21st October 2012, 10:34

    Isn't that what i just said? lol
19. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #19 21st October 2012, 12:02

    i just wanted to reiterate to make the point well and truly clear
20. welshpug Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2010 South Wales Posts: 3078 ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.

    #20 21st October 2012, 12:14

    so what if I don't want Cat?
21. user_32315 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2009 Uppingham, Rutland Posts: 9569 mk1 JP4'd VTR, '16 Fabia Monte Carlo

    #21 21st October 2012, 12:38

    you have to use cat to be a saxp baws
22. welshpug Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2010 South Wales Posts: 3078 ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.

    #22 21st October 2012, 12:42

    a what?
23. user_32315 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2009 Uppingham, Rutland Posts: 9569 mk1 JP4'd VTR, '16 Fabia Monte Carlo

    #23 21st October 2012, 12:42

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=baws
24. welshpug Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2010 South Wales Posts: 3078 ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.

    #24 21st October 2012, 12:53

    well I'm not African American, or Scottish.
25. user_32315 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2009 Uppingham, Rutland Posts: 9569 mk1 JP4'd VTR, '16 Fabia Monte Carlo

    #25 21st October 2012, 13:56

    ah i see well im afraid you cant use cat then..
26. welshpug Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2010 South Wales Posts: 3078 ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.

    #26 21st October 2012, 14:10

    that's fine with me, I don't want to :lol:
27. user_32315 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2009 Uppingham, Rutland Posts: 9569 mk1 JP4'd VTR, '16 Fabia Monte Carlo

    #27 21st October 2012, 14:21

    lol just out of interest, why not?
28. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #28 21st October 2012, 19:24

    Schrick don't make one, Kent cams don't make one, Estas will copy an existing camshaft but won't test or know whether it will work, Newmans don't make one that will fit a road engine, Cat Cams are not wanted.. You are running out of manufacturers!
    
    Therefore turbo it instead
29. welshpug Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2010 South Wales Posts: 3078 ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.

    #29 21st October 2012, 19:36

    He'll have to just get some made up through Sandy then
30. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #30 22nd October 2012, 10:11

    Sounds more expensive for no gain...
    
    What are you trying to achieve that you cannot get from the Cat Cams?
31. welshpug Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2010 South Wales Posts: 3078 ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.

    #31 22nd October 2012, 17:33

    an engine that doesn't wear its top end out!
32. xsi16v Regular Poster Joined: Jan 2006 Ilkeston, Derbyshire Posts: 469 374 bhp Supercharged 205 GTI, Passat Estate

    #32 22nd October 2012, 18:08

    I have had no issues with my catcams in the 180 engine, and there is far more work in these cams than TU's with it having VVT.
    
    I wont touch on the subject of catcam pulleys though

    1 user thanked this post: blackie_2k5
33. blackie_2k5 Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B

    #33 22nd October 2012, 20:46

    Catcam pulleys are gay.. I had one ages ago
    
    My mapper said he'd never deal with catcams again after a 2 hour phone call to get some timing specs for a custom grind cam they had made for one of his customers, not only could they not provide, they couldn't tell him what was custom about it and how they'd came to reccomend/spec that can for his engine lol
34. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #34 23rd October 2012, 11:10

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by welshpug an engine that doesn't wear its top end out!

    can you explain? You've had premature camshaft wear or valve train wear?
35. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #35 23rd October 2012, 11:15

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by blackie_2k5 Catcam pulleys are gay.. I had one ages ago My mapper said he'd never deal with catcams again after a 2 hour phone call to get some timing specs for a custom grind cam they had made for one of his customers, not only could they not provide, they couldn't tell him what was custom about it and how they'd came to reccomend/spec that can for his engine lol

    There certainly was an issue with some of the peugeot pulley's not being true. Sandy had lots of issues. Not sure if they changed the design/CNC programme to sort this.
    
    With the issue of the custom camshaft..its going to depend on who designed it as to what information there is available. I could spec a camshaft and get them to make it and they would not take any interest in timing etc.
    The worrying thing is the customer was completely clueless to what camshaft he had. I've got a custom VW camshaft sitting on my desk ready to be installed and its not going anywhere near a car until I have the detailed specs of the final design!
36. bigezz Infrequent Poster Joined: Jul 2012 perth Posts: 224 106 gti cheery red, 106 rallye phase 2 blaca white

    #36 23rd October 2012, 11:35

    this is a pretty pointless thread clearly cat is your best option
37. welshpug Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2010 South Wales Posts: 3078 ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.

    #37 23rd October 2012, 18:57

    why is asking what clearance an engine has pointless?
    
    I spoke to an engine builder and he wouldn't use Cat unless the customer had bought them due to the issues with how they make their profiles and stuff wearing.
38. axsaxoman Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2003 Scotland Posts: 3380

    #38 24th October 2012, 15:56

    never seen a saxo top end wear out with any make of cam --pinto,s vauxhalls ,fiats yes --not tu engines
    must be some other reason
    yes it is a bit of a pointless thread as if you fit anything much wilder than std the fly by wire will not like it at all on the c2 .
    and as the ecu has full adaptive mapping its hard to do anything with it anyway .
    any engine bulder or cam maker will not warranty piston clearance on aftermarket cams --thats up to you as the fitter to check and make mods as required.
    early c2 engines had slight piston cut outs --then later ones do not --so its not something i would do without having the head off and using clay on pistons =dry build and turn over the ngien -remove head and see how thick the clay is --that will tell you how much clearance you have