Next steps from Throttle bodies??

1. Jimmy-Boy Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2006 Suffolk Posts: 7551 N/A 200bhp+ per ton 106 gti

   #1 17th November 2012, 22:00

   I have Jenvey throttle bodies, omex 600 ecu, piper 4-1, stainless 2.25 mani back.
   
   Ok the headgasket has started to leak around the edges so whilst its apart what more can i do to squeeze more power? or just in general what are the next steps and rough cost? i am not to fussed about the BHP figure just want plenty of smooth in gear power.
   
   The car has a gripper lsd, sports cluster with 4.9fd and i would like to hope is around 800kgs mark.
   
   All advice really welcome
   
   edit: main reason is its a 100% track only car, and struggling to get past higher powered cars on the straights. Not really looking to go boosted turbo/charger route.
2. user_57064 Established Member Joined: Jan 2012 south essex!! Posts: 2442 posi blue vtrs race car

   #2 17th November 2012, 22:03

   slipper pistons, higher lift cams, different map, sodium fillled valves, custom mani... now your talking money mate... its coin from here on in...
3. user_10176 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jun 2006 Ramsey st marys, peterborough Posts: 8288 Saxo's, Corsa (Daily)

   #3 17th November 2012, 22:23

   Depends on what you want for your money, for more power vs money your best going turbo/supercharger, but saw you don't want take that route, then is now finding a well rounded spec, and how deep your pockets are.
   
   Then also well balance chassis will give you a better car, but that too is expensive, all depending on how far you want to go, I have been changing my saxo with different spring ratings, camber setup,
   
   Also what have you do to get it to 800 kgs?
4. Jimmy-Boy Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2006 Suffolk Posts: 7551 N/A 200bhp+ per ton 106 gti

   #4 17th November 2012, 22:29

   mmm pockets getting much lighter, have decided to go for a suspension set up very simular to your andy, AST's with 22mm bars etc.
   
   standard shell as such, completly striped, no sunroof, dash heaters, 13" wheels, lights weight hispec brakes, to be fitted: slimline batt, polycarb windows, cut out the doors.. only thing thats been added - oil catch tank and roll cage.
   
   rough costs to see some gains ? or do you think i will be best off saving for something else ?
5. user_10176 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jun 2006 Ramsey st marys, peterborough Posts: 8288 Saxo's, Corsa (Daily)

   #5 17th November 2012, 22:39

   Well my saxo was 800 kgs with,non sun roof skin, fibre glass bonnet and boot, poly carb all round, full stripped out, everything bar the min for dash, 38 dia bar cage, hi spec's, removal of abs, pas, also had no front lights, I removed everything and just got to 800 kgs.
   
   Well depends if you think it worth it, It not always about more power, a well balance car will help,
   
   Well rear bar size depends on front spring rate, sandy does a good suspension write up on 106rr, but still it maybe have to try a few setups, I was on 225 lb front springs with 22 mm bars, and felt the balance was off abit, changed to 400 on some advice, but think that maybe bit too hard, so dropping that back down abit.
   
   Then that also depends on your own fell for the suspension.
6. Jimmy-Boy Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2006 Suffolk Posts: 7551 N/A 200bhp+ per ton 106 gti

   #6 17th November 2012, 22:56

   i like a slightly twitchy rear end, so was going to stay with 300lbs and 22rear bars, i have removed all the arch liners, drilled holes, removed everything that is not needed, 800kgs is a ball park and the spec sounds simular to your so i doubt i am far out.. its more power on the straights IMO where i am lacking due to m3 boys etc not letting off for me to go past even though on the "overall lap" i would be much faster. So figured if i can free up some more power that would be ideal. Not trying to be unrealistic either hands down top end a m3 is going to rape an 106.
7. welshpug Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2010 South Wales Posts: 3078 ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.

   #7 17th November 2012, 23:00

   if you look to build an engine, you need to look at well chosen set of components not just slap a load of off the shelf bits and hope it works, that in the main is why engines that the likes of Sandy Brown and JRE and many more cost a decent amount, the time and knowledge that goes into designing and calculating what works together, and often getting parts custom made.
8. Jimmy-Boy Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2006 Suffolk Posts: 7551 N/A 200bhp+ per ton 106 gti

   #8 17th November 2012, 23:07

   i know this, and how much labour and ££ goes into it, but was wondering if there are any more bolt ons i can add and another remap or longer trumpets, instead of a foam filter run something else? high comp pistons? but yeah no worrys just brain storming ideas and weighing up costs and options like im sure alot of people in a simular situation have done. Just wnat to hear like minded views
9. user_29491 Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2008 Lancs Posts: 4124 JP4S'd R.

   #9 17th November 2012, 23:52

   No uprated cams? If so there is a bit extra grunt for you.
10. JamesRm Forum Section Moderator Joined: Aug 2008 Liverpool Posts: 15517 Saxo VTR

    #10 17th November 2012, 23:55

    Head work?
11. tomnelson Frequent Poster Joined: Dec 2010 coalville Posts: 711 project flat arch

    #11 18th November 2012, 08:08

    Lightend flywheel ?
12. Jimmy-Boy Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2006 Suffolk Posts: 7551 N/A 200bhp+ per ton 106 gti

    #12 18th November 2012, 10:26

    have lightened flywheel, ph3 cams; with regards to headwork can you be more specific please ?
13. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #13 18th November 2012, 10:28

    Getting the chassis sorted will reap lower lap times. lighter overall shell, proper suspension and tyres will allow you to brake later, brake less, corner faster, exit faster and accelerate faster. It will make the whole car far more capable.
14. Jimmy-Boy Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2006 Suffolk Posts: 7551 N/A 200bhp+ per ton 106 gti

    #14 18th November 2012, 10:35

    i feel the car is pretty well set up for that though, on snetterton i am sailing past cars on the long corners. For me it's just the straights...
15. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #15 18th November 2012, 11:23

    what work has been done to the chassis, suspension and what tyres?
16. Jimmy-Boy Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2006 Suffolk Posts: 7551 N/A 200bhp+ per ton 106 gti

    #16 18th November 2012, 16:35

    full roll cage, hoping to get it seam welded ready for next year, bilstein atm again ast's from you when funds allow, have 22mm bars to be fitted, fully poly bushed all round, A048s, 13x7 direct fitament pro race 1.3's.
17. luthor1 Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802

    #17 18th November 2012, 16:52

    Lightweight flywheel, cam pulleys, crank pulley, alternator pulley
    Close Ratio Gearbox with your LSD
    Move battery to centre of car
    Get cylinder head exhaust port opened right up, easy power to get from there, and get head re-conditioned so re-spin the valves in, check tolerence on the guides, change stem seals and refit. Don't bother doing anything to the intake port and for gods sake don't touch the chamber.
    Fit the 0.7mm replacement steel headgasket available, and check valve to piston clearances on the best cam timing to increase you compression to the highest possible without going forged
    
    These things you can do at home if you have the tools, it's about getting the engine lighter to accellerate faster, pull shorter gears using the upper end of the rev-range, and allowing the head to breath a bit easier on the exhaust side which is a huge restriction on these heads once you have bodies and a decent manifold/exhaust system
    
    Good luck!
    Andy
18. Jimmy-Boy Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2006 Suffolk Posts: 7551 N/A 200bhp+ per ton 106 gti

    #18 18th November 2012, 17:04

    Have most of the above, where to buy: cam pulleys, crank pulley, alternator pulley ? would it be better to change to a JP4 head?
19. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #19 18th November 2012, 17:32

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jimmy-Boy full roll cage, hoping to get it seam welded ready for next year, bilstein atm again ast's from you when funds allow, have 22mm bars to be fitted, fully poly bushed all round, A048s, 13x7 direct fitament pro race 1.3's.

    I cannot see seam welding giving much benefit for a trackday car vs cost.
    To be honest the car is pretty well specced. It should not be slow. I think the suspension is too soft though. 22mm bars might be too soft too if you are significantly upgrading suspension.
    I'd be removing all the glass windows and running fibreglass bonnet, boot and doors.
    Realistically anything more is going to get expensive to make significant gains or you are going to have to look at each component on the car and work out whether you can run a lighter version.
    Running bigger diameter and wider tyres may allow you to run a softer tyre compound.

    1 user thanked this post: Jimmy-Boy
20. luthor1 Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802

    #20 18th November 2012, 18:02

    Go for over 300lb springs up front, DONT go for a JP4 head, not worth it even with the bigger intake valve, speak to KAM Racing and GMC Motorsport (probably Atspeed too) for alloy pulley parts

    1 user thanked this post: Jimmy-Boy
21. Boombang Infrequent Poster Joined: Jun 2012 Essex Posts: 208

    #21 18th November 2012, 18:10

    Without sounding like an arsehole, could it be your driving skill that makes you feel like you need more power? Got any on track videos? Bit of driver coaching normally makes a huge difference.

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22. Ryanp Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut

    #22 18th November 2012, 18:21

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Boombang Without sounding like an arsehole, could it be your driving skill that makes you feel like you need more power? Got any on track videos? Bit of driver coaching normally makes a huge difference.

    Depending on the track power is key.
    
    Especially when you go up against the big power barges- slow I'm the corners holding you up then gun it down the straights.
23. Boombang Infrequent Poster Joined: Jun 2012 Essex Posts: 208

    #23 18th November 2012, 18:42

    Some tracks favour power (Snetterton 300 for example) but I don't know anyone who hasn't gone substantially quicker everywhere after tuition. It's by far the most cost effective way of making you faster round a circuit.
24. luthor1 Established Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 1802

    #24 18th November 2012, 21:34

    Problem with tuition for amateur and track drivers is that it distills driving down to a mathematical equation, and a calm sequential set of inputs *yawn* which really makes you go much faster
    
    But frankly it's a LOT less fun.
    
    You can go much faster with tuition, but be careful, once you go in to it you'll lose some of the fun of it, all IMHO of course!
25. Jimmy-Boy Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2006 Suffolk Posts: 7551 N/A 200bhp+ per ton 106 gti

    #25 18th November 2012, 21:48

    Sorry guys maybe i am being less specific, and i think your right my car is fairly well specced and it is not my driving - i know its not competitive and i don't brag about my car at all... But there were 80 cars booked on yesterday i overtook around 40+ and was overtaken 3 times. I don't have an on board camera and have taken tution on a couple of venues which i agree with it's fantastic value for money and improves you a great deal. I should just be happy with my car and hope in future the bigger bhp boys let off when im trying to get past on the straights
    
    The sole purpose of this thread was merely to see if i am missing anything or can squeeze some more bhp out some how to have a bit more grunt on the straights. Thanks all for the re assuring positive comments though!
26. Ryanp Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut

    #26 18th November 2012, 21:55

    £ for £ for me the best value NA spec is the 734 spec which can see 180+ bhp and reasonable torque.
27. Jimmy-Boy Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2006 Suffolk Posts: 7551 N/A 200bhp+ per ton 106 gti

    #27 18th November 2012, 22:06

    sorry ryan i'm not that clued up on what 734 means, would you mind expanding
28. Ryanp Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut

    #28 18th November 2012, 22:07

    Catcam 734 or similar.
    
    Hydro lifters can still be used etc.. Gives good power for the £ imo.
29. AlexBp West Midlands Joined: Dec 2007 West mids Posts: 23149 Supra,civic GL

    #29 19th November 2012, 00:28

    basically 734s are higher than 708s but dont require forgies ect
    
    if going forged id go more toward ph4s wich are higher again but are a hydro spec i made 186 and 145 ft/lb forged on ph4s past that really solid lifters are required
30. Ryanp Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut

    #30 19th November 2012, 00:40

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AlexB basically 734s are higher than 708s but dont require forgies ect if going forged id go more toward ph4s wich are higher again but are a hydro spec i made 186 and 145 ft/lb forged on ph4s past that really solid lifters are required

    734s dont fit standard pistons and QEP got circa 195 out of them in dyno testing a few years ago. (albeit with headwork for that spec)
31. AlexBp West Midlands Joined: Dec 2007 West mids Posts: 23149 Supra,civic GL

    #31 19th November 2012, 00:44

    thought 734s did fit stock pistons
    
    my 186 was a pug1fluff engine as you know but made cosistent 180+ on a few rollers
    on a generous one i rekon i could see over 190
    but im not here to comment on peoples rollers ect
    
    thanks for correcting me ryan
    i could of sworn they didnt need pocketed pistons
32. Ryanp Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut

    #32 19th November 2012, 00:59

    708/715 were the most recommended for stock pistons.
    
    With the 708s being superseeded by the 743 or whatever its called these days.
    
    The 734 (or slight variation if in the JP4 head 737 iirc) were the spec which were similar to the ph4.
    
    Those figures from yours are from NMS iirc how much more generous do you want
33. AlexBp West Midlands Joined: Dec 2007 West mids Posts: 23149 Supra,civic GL

    #33 19th November 2012, 01:12

    been on more than nms rollers ryan
    
    and 743 might be where my confusions coming from lol
34. gazza808 Frequent Poster Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 591

    #34 19th November 2012, 08:52

    I found nms rollers to be quite tight in my opinion and read to with in 4bhp of what mine did at track and road who are well known for being tight.
35. user_10176 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jun 2006 Ramsey st marys, peterborough Posts: 8288 Saxo's, Corsa (Daily)

    #35 19th November 2012, 09:07

    I have been to three dynos NMS, atspeed, Tdf and all was in 4 bhp of each other on my engine, torque figures where also within two or three lbft, All about 136-140 atw, NMS and Tdf have same manufacturer dyno.
36. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #36 19th November 2012, 10:29

    The 734's will need stronger springs to be fitted. OE ones won't cut the mustard.
    What you want to make sure is you get a camshaft that does not kill the mid range.
    Do you use short trumpets?
    
    I still think the chassis and suspension will reap bigger rewards though. To get past a big bhp car you are going to need a good chunk more power to go head to head. The alternative is you need to be able to exit a corner with a lot more speed to get past the car early and also be able to brake significantly later.

    1 user thanked this post: Jimmy-Boy
37. Ryanp Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut

    #37 19th November 2012, 16:27

    See the rolling road graphs thread for 'friendly' rollings
    
    http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=409439

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