VTS Engine into a 1.1?

27th December 2012, 15:31

Hi,
My 1.1 Engine has gone kaput basically, and I have a spare VTS mot failure, so I was thinking rather than forking out loads to fix the 1.1 just dropping the VTS block into the 1.1?

Would that be a big job as I don't know alot about engines I know i have the 3 plug ECU or something? but would things like the rear beam need changing for the brakes and stuff? as the VTS i have has buggered trailing arms so i can't use that one

. Or would it be a straight swap? or just a complete death trap?

Cheers, Dom

27th December 2012, 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe

If the cars are the same years its easy to swap the engines,
But I would definatly sort the brakes out, disc beam and bigger front brakes

Cheers, Is there anyway of just using the vts front breaks from the one I have or transferring the rear ones? or is it easier just to buy a whole new rear beam ?

27th December 2012, 16:05

Yeah you could swap the engines over no problem, the only upgrade you'll need for the 1.1 if you want is stiffer ARB.

upgrading the front brakes on the 1.1 is an absolute must imo! so fit the VTS brakes to it, you don't need to upgrade the Master Cylinder.

I think you can swap the clocks straight over too

Looms from the same year should be plug and play with the interior loom.

27th December 2012, 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

Yeah you could swap the engines over no problem, the only upgrade you'll need for the 1.1 if you want is stiffer ARB.

upgrading the front brakes on the 1.1 is an absolute must imo! so fit the VTS brakes to it, you don't need to upgrade the Master Cylinder.

I think you can swap the clocks straight over too

Looms from the same year should be plug and play with the interior loom.

Cheers mate, so i literally can take one out and put one in or do i need other bits, read somewhere about a fuel return ? and are the brakes just a straight swap too?

27th December 2012, 16:13

Oh I forgot about the fuelling side

don't know, should be easy to work out

As for the brakes, yes they are a striaght swap over. even at the rear, swapping the stubs pins is easy too, get something heavy like a 4lb hammer and they come out easily, the back plate is held on by 4, T50 bolts. they come out easily too as they rarely get rusty threads.

as mentioned, if your 1.1 is 4 stud, put the VTS arb in the back as well to tighten up the rear, and get some new VTS springs for the 1.1. softer poverty spec arb at the front helps you turn in tighter anyway

27th December 2012, 16:23

VTS is 51 and 1.1 is 52. The VTS failed mot on both trailing arms is this anything to do with the ARB, sorry i'm useless at all this haha

27th December 2012, 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

Oh I forgot about the fuelling side

don't know, should be easy to work out

As for the brakes, yes they are a striaght swap over. even at the rear, swapping the stubs pins is easy too, get something heavy like a 4lb hammer and they come out easily, the back plate is held on by 4, T50 bolts. they come out easily too as they rarely get rusty threads.

as mentioned, if your 1.1 is 4 stud, put the VTS arb in the back as well to tighten up the rear, and get some new VTS springs for the 1.1. softer poverty spec arb at the front helps you turn in tighter anyway

I take it for the rear i'd have to run the hoses to the calipers, would this come straight out the 1.1 master cylinder or something ?

27th December 2012, 16:25

Nah, the ARB's will swap if the 1.1 is 4 stud model. as the 3 stud's have different trailing arms and no ARB at the rear

the failure is the axle bearings no doubt. the ARB can't fail unless the bolts shear.

27th December 2012, 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domm

I take it for the rear i'd have to run the hoses to the calipers, would this come straight out the 1.1 master cylinder or something ?

Noooooo

Just alter the path of the solid brake line after the flexi on the trialing arm, and go straight into the caliper. it doesn't have to move much.

27th December 2012, 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

Nah, the ARB's will swap if the 1.1 is 4 stud model. as the 3 stud's have different trailing arms and no ARB at the rear

the failure is the axle bearings no doubt. the ARB can't fail unless the bolts shear.

So I can swap the ARB without the trailing arms? do they just bolt on i'm guessing?

27th December 2012, 16:29

the ARB at the rear runs through the main tube of the axle.

It could be seized if the seals have perished an allowed water in but generally they are well greased. You remove 2 13mm head bolts and drive an M12*1.75 bolt into one end, it pushes the bar out.

27th December 2012, 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

the ARB at the rear runs through the main tube of the axle.

It could be seized if the seals have perished an allowed water in but generally they are well greased. You remove 2 13mm head bolts and drive an M12*1.75 bolt into one end, it pushes the bar out.

Ok cheers mate!

So I drop the engine in, do the fuel return, swap the brake calipers over, change the path of the rear brake line and swap the ARB?

27th December 2012, 16:34

Yup.

I've probably missed something there on the rear ARB side of things, but I'm sure someone else will pipe up!

27th December 2012, 16:36

cheers for all the help buddy!

27th December 2012, 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe

Remember to unlock the vts Ecu first, start the car and remove the black box under the fuse box inside, about the size of a packet of fags, then that should unlock it.
I'm pretty sure but someone may correct me, but your loom should match the engine loom from the vts, if not then you could reloom the whole car with all the vts looms.

Ok cheers mate, i'll get on it tomorrow in the light, found someone to swap the engines so hopefully it should be done quick!

Just again on the brakes though, on the front i just swap the calipers? and on the back i just change the calipers and re position the brake lines?

Thanks

27th December 2012, 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domm

Ok cheers mate, i'll get on it tomorrow in the light, found someone to swap the engines so hopefully it should be done quick!

Just again on the brakes though, on the front i just swap the calipers? and on the back i just change the calipers and re position the brake lines?

Thanks

On the back you'll need to swap the stubs, I think the drum and disc ones are different lengths, and 3 stud is a different diameter, you'll need to hammer them out and swap them.

apart from that, yes

27th December 2012, 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

On the back you'll need to swap the stubs, I think the drum and disc ones are different lengths, and 3 stud is a different diameter, you'll need to hammer them out and swap them.

apart from that, yes

There both 4 stub, so hammer out, hammer in?

27th December 2012, 16:49

Ya, fucking HAMMER though, don't tap it. man hammer it.

27th December 2012, 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe

I'm pretty sure you won't swap to stub pins on a beam on your drive using every day tools, I don't mind being proven wrong, but everyone I have seen do them use a pretty substantial hydraulic press

Noooooooo

not the bearing stubs

the wheel hub stubs. they hammer in.

Mikol showed me

and I can show you too if you want pics?

27th December 2012, 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

Noooooooo

not the bearing stubs

the wheel hub stubs. they hammer in.

Mikol showed me

and I can show you too if you want pics?

A few pics never hurt if you fancy putting them on

27th December 2012, 17:12

You need thors hammer

Here you see a suspension beam! your is still on the car though, simply hammer the hell out of the stub towards the middle, you will need to remove the back plate incase you miss and bend it

Then hit the remainder and out and you'll be left with this, I used a bit of heat because I'm lazy

you will be left with that, do this on the other beam.

The stubs simply hammer back in.

27th December 2012, 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

You need thors hammer

Here you see a suspension beam! your is still on the car though, simply hammer the hell out of the stub towards the middle, you will need to remove the back plate incase you miss and bend it

Then hit the remainder and out and you'll be left with this, I used a bit of heat because I'm lazy

you will be left with that, do this on the other beam.

The stubs simply hammer back in.

Sweet, nice one, do they only hammer in a certain amount or do i have to measure a certain amount?

27th December 2012, 17:16

No, they hammer against a stop mate

It'll be obvious when you have a closer look, I don't have a picture of the stubs on their own. oddly enough lol

27th December 2012, 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

No, they hammer against a stop mate

It'll be obvious when you have a closer look, I don't have a picture of the stubs on their own. oddly enough lol

Ok cheers

, i'll get the engine swapped and have a proper look soon!

27th December 2012, 17:21

You can leave the axle as is, the rear brakes don't do much anyway.

front brakes are the important ones!

27th December 2012, 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

You can leave the axle as is, the rear brakes don't do much anyway.

front brakes are the important ones!

Ok i'll get the front brakes and engine done first then, then do the others later!

27th December 2012, 20:52

If the VTS you've got has only failed on the rear axle, you'll find it easier and quicker to fix / swap the rear beam than undertake an engine conversion IMO, then use the VTS.

27th December 2012, 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

You can leave the axle as is, the rear brakes don't do much anyway.

front brakes are the important ones!

bollocks back brakes dont do much are you mad ! ohh ill tell you what ill build a 250mph bugatti but have decent brakes on the front but drum brakes on the back lol

27th December 2012, 23:36

27th December 2012, 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by burgin2011

bollocks back brakes dont do much are you mad ! ohh ill tell you what ill build a 250mph bugatti but have decent brakes on the front but drum brakes on the back lol

This best way to test see if you can do 60 in second.

27th December 2012, 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by burgin2011

bollocks back brakes dont do much are you mad ! ohh ill tell you what ill build a 250mph bugatti but have decent brakes on the front but drum brakes on the back lol

Did you really just compare a Bugatti and a saxo!?

A well set up drum beam on a 120bhp saxo IS plenty of stopping power, especially if the front brakes are decent.

27th December 2012, 23:45

[QUOTE=mlawlan69;6188183]Did you really just compare a Bugatti and a saxo!?

yep i just did ? its only like saying a well set up bugatti drum can handle the stopping power its made to cope with its no different it will work but shit compared to discs ! it would be waste of time it wont last long and if you had discs you would stop 2 times better quicker than you would with drums! do 120mph in a vts with discs on front and drums on back and ill do 120mph in my vts with discs on back and front i bet i stop quicker and

27th December 2012, 23:46

Oh dear. I think I know where this is going...

27th December 2012, 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

Oh dear. I think I know where this is going...

so do i , i am not even going to bother posting again tbh cant be bovarddddddd !

28th December 2012, 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

Oh dear. I think I know where this is going...

Nowhere that's where lol.

A decent drum set up is as effective as stopping as a disk set up on the rear for all the braking the rears actually do. its mostly about your front set up that counts.

I actually looked in to it as when I do my conversion I wasnt sure if to go disk beam on the back, I didn't want to get rid of my beam as its mint and sure its been changed before.

Time and again people were saying for the hassle it wasn't worth it and as long as it was set up well enough would provide me with ample stopping power.

I don't want to descend into an argument or anything, but I cannot see the correlation between a veyron and a saxo :/

28th December 2012, 00:48

[QUOTE=burgin2011;6188189]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlawlan69

Did you really just compare a Bugatti and a saxo!?

yep i just did ? its only like saying a well set up bugatti drum can handle the stopping power its made to cope with its no different it will work but shit compared to discs ! it would be waste of time it wont last long and if you had discs you would stop 2 times better quicker than you would with drums! do 120mph in a vts with discs on front and drums on back and ill do 120mph in my vts with discs on back and front i bet i stop quicker and

Actually, drum brakes provide BETTER braking because they have larger braked surface area

The reason they are poor in terms of performance is simply cooling, it's very very hard to cool drums so they get hot and fade very very fast and there's no way around that. (You can buy vented and finned drums for minis for example)

Plus, drums are more complicated and more expensive to manufacture and harder to maintain.

28th December 2012, 00:58

woops, I've buggered up the syntax

28th December 2012, 01:02

I had a 160bhp vvc metro with well serviced drums on the back. They worked just fine, even on track couple with decent front pads

28th December 2012, 02:20

Is there a certain way to set up drums well then? or just buy good ones?

28th December 2012, 08:12

The veyron also weighs twice as much as the saxo, with a lot of that weight over the rear axle...

The veyrons tyres cost $25,000 a set for example. It's a little retarded to attempt to compare braking effort on a saxo to a veyron.

28th December 2012, 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

The veyron also weighs twice as much as the saxo, with a lot of that weight over the rear axle...

The veyrons tyres cost $25,000 a set for example. It's a little retarded to attempt to compare braking effort on a saxo to a veyron.

60-0 in 3.2 seconds y0!

S1 Rallye's and some furios have drums

29th December 2012, 19:59

I've piped up because Martin credited me with some actually not-shit mechanical work. Awesome - thanks. Although I will admit I stole the idea from Jonny-R though, so credit where credit's due.

However this whole thread has gone south very quickly, and a lot of things regarding the discussion of brakes (or more specifically one being better than the other) have made me angry.

I'm going to count to ten and have a sit down.

29th December 2012, 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikol

I've piped up because Martin credited me with some actually not-shit mechanical work. Awesome - thanks. Although I will admit I stole the idea from Jonny-R though, so credit where credit's due.

However this whole thread has gone south very quickly, and a lot of things regarding the discussion of brakes (or more specifically one being better than the other) have made me angry.

I'm going to count to ten and have a sit down.

Do you know what the brake bias is, Mike? I know a few people who take 106's on the track (both disc and drum type) and with the standard braking systems they really struggle to get any heat build up.

30th December 2012, 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

Do you know what the brake bias is, Mike? I know a few people who take 106's on the track (both disc and drum type) and with the standard braking systems they really struggle to get any heat build up.

For drums, or discs?

One is easy, the other I'd need to do some reading for.

30th December 2012, 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikol

For drums, or discs?

One is easy, the other I'd need to do some reading for.

Drums

Discs vary depending on the height of the rear axle no? or is that just ABS models?

30th December 2012, 13:32

Even the drums do as well, in their own way. The cylinders are supposedly 'self-compensating', though how it works I don't know.

If you were going to work out the bias you'd have to make some assumptions, or just work on a ratio basis, which would be easier. For example fitting 266s up front increases your front bias by about 35%, where here I've defined bias as the braking torque per unit brake line pressure.

Drums are a whole other kettle of fish, I'm sure if you look around there are some nice empirical models of how to relate cylinder size/drum diameter and braking force in the literature, but I haven't had cause to before.