Yet Another Turbo Thread

24th February 2013, 00:05

First let me start with sorry for another turbo thread.

Iv decided to turbo my 106

and have some questions, (i have done a lot of searching and cant seem to fine the answer to them)

I have read through the following links and more:
http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=240847
http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=558
http://www.saxosportsclub.com/index.php?topic=42292.0
http://205gtidrivers.com/articles/e2-5thinjector.html
http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=429993

So its a VTR 1.6 8V that im planning on turboing

I plan on using a garret T25 off a saab 2000

Ill either make or buy a manifold

Intercooler small as possible but not too small - easy mounting less lag

2x 1.5mm decomp plate to prevent pre-ignition

control side i want to use MF2 so ill need a 2 Bar Map sensor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Im planning to use MF2 and Sig-Con system at first - which brings me to my first question

Do i actually need to buy a sig-con, as both the lambda sensors on my car have been disconnected since its been de-catted (car runs perfectly) and all sigcon does is disable lambda fueling on boost but seen as my lambda's arent plug in there is no need?

Next is seen as it will be running on the fifth injector system i wont have to change the standard injectors?

Looking to get about 160 - 180 BHP what sort of psi am i looking at running?

How do i work out what Injector to use as the 5th one ?

24th February 2013, 01:48

Question 1 - don't know
Question 2 - no, you use the standard injectors
Question 3 - about 10psi on a t25 to reach your aim
Question 4 - The 5th injector and elbow should come with the mf2 kit you buy

24th February 2013, 11:13

thanks mate really helpful just need to know whether i need the sig-con or not now so i can price things up

25th February 2013, 00:06

anyone know if i need a sig-con or not

25th February 2013, 06:27

if you need a sigcon i have one sigcon 2/3

25th February 2013, 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by craigyt

if you need a sigcon i have one sigcon 2/3

Thanks i dont know yet , do you have a MF2 thats what i really need first

25th February 2013, 11:12

If not does anyone know where i can buy a MF2 with injector and 2 bar map sensor

25th February 2013, 19:59

I sold that a month or so ago but still have the sigcon!!

26th February 2013, 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by craigyt

I sold that a month or so ago but still have the sigcon!!

I think your the same person i was speaking to on eBay lol ?

26th February 2013, 09:24

Have been speaking with a company on ebay and they have told me the Aquamist MF2 has been discontinued. Is this correct?

""Hi Andy

No they don't act the same - but Aquamist have a nasty habit of discontinuing products (which doesn't help you much)

HFS3: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...e=STRK:MESE:IT

DDS3: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...e=STRK:MESE:IT

More info available through google or Aquamist's website

Many thanks

Lewis ""

The dds3 and hsf3 dont work as a fifth injector system just water injection.

Dont know where i can by one

26th February 2013, 09:39

hi
first dont confuse size of intercooler as the cause of turbo lag, your intercooler should be sized correctly to the CFM's you want to flow at over a PSI range

lag is how long a turbo takes to spool, ie garret gt30/71 for instance on a 1.6 motor wont make boost until 4500 rpm full boost at 6000 so useless stick a gt25rs on and itll make boost a 2500 rpm full at 3500

mf2/sigcon.... BANDAID tuning, you'll never really see the full benefit of the cars abilities and by the time youve spent your money, drove around turning dials on both units at each rpm zone and trying set it up, then realising you need 2 hours on a rolling road and a tuner ..... you might as well have gone with a standalone unit and got it done right first time
map sensor, you need a 3 bar min, pref 4 bar, 2 bar is a waste of time....

2x1.5mm decomp plates? WHY? do you even understand calculating compression ratio, and what your actually trying to achieve. plus again cost, 2 x 1.5 plates at what £90 each, plus 3x gaskets to seal ( yes i know theres 2 schools of thought on gasket use with decomps) at £40 each and then realising youve just created a 5-7mm spacer depending on gasket thickness, and reduced your compression to just guessing here but id say 6:1 ( you planning on running nitromethane, alcohol? )

can i ask without sounding rude or anything, but do you actually know what your planning to do, or are you just guessing because it says so in other threads......

sorry if i sound a bit harsh, but i really do believe in doing it right first time, its cheaper in the long run and saves you alot of heart break when things dont work or go BANG

26th February 2013, 09:48

sorry

Found it !!!

http://www.aquamist-direct.com/806-6...jector-driver/

26th February 2013, 09:55

so £312 for the MF2, then the sigcon, seriously go the ECU route

26th February 2013, 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by K567

hi
first dont confuse size of intercooler as the cause of turbo lag, your intercooler should be sized correctly to the CFM's you want to flow at over a PSI range

lag is how long a turbo takes to spool, ie garret gt30/71 for instance on a 1.6 motor wont make boost until 4500 rpm full boost at 6000 so useless stick a gt25rs on and itll make boost a 2500 rpm full at 3500

mf2/sigcon.... BANDAID tuning, you'll never really see the full benefit of the cars abilities and by the time youve spent your money, drove around turning dials on both units at each rpm zone and trying set it up, then realising you need 2 hours on a rolling road and a tuner ..... you might as well have gone with a standalone unit and got it done right first time
map sensor, you need a 3 bar min, pref 4 bar, 2 bar is a waste of time....

2x1.5mm decomp plates? WHY? do you even understand calculating compression ratio, and what your actually trying to achieve. plus again cost, 2 x 1.5 plates at what £90 each, plus 3x gaskets to seal ( yes i know theres 2 schools of thought on gasket use with decomps) at £40 each and then realising youve just created a 5-7mm spacer depending on gasket thickness, and reduced your compression to just guessing here but id say 6:1 ( you planning on running nitromethane, alcohol? )

can i ask without sounding rude or anything, but do you actually know what your planning to do, or are you just guessing because it says so in other threads......

sorry if i sound a bit harsh, but i really do believe in doing it right first time, its cheaper in the long run and saves you alot of heart break when things dont work or go BANG

Mate dont worry dont see it as being harsh am greatful for all the help i can get have never turbo'ed a car before and know nothing other than what i have read in other threads , I know what lag is i didn't think it was just to do with inter cooler size but thanks for clearing it up a bit.

As to do with the the decomp was just because thats what i saw other people with t25 were running, please explain more on this so i can work out what i need.

As to the MF2 I would like to run this first then move onto a standalone system later, I can always sell the MF2 system when i decide to go standalone.

Any help will be greatly appreciated

26th February 2013, 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by K567

so £312 for the MF2, then the sigcon, seriously go the ECU route

What do i need for ecu set up

Standalone and bigger injectors?

26th February 2013, 10:13

standalone

Predator = injectors only, clio 182's

dta, omex, megasquirt, kms, pretty much all other ecu's = loom, injectors

and thats just the basics to run other stuff will depend on where you want to go eventually

theres alot of choice out there, alot will be down to budget

but for certain the end result will be worth it

dont get me wrong, alot of people have had success with the mf2 and sigcon im just not a fan

26th February 2013, 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by K567

standalone

Predator = injectors only, clio 182's

dta, omex, megasquirt, kms, pretty much all other ecu's = loom, injectors

and thats just the basics to run other stuff will depend on where you want to go eventually

theres alot of choice out there, alot will be down to budget

but for certain the end result will be worth it

dont get me wrong, alot of people have had success with the mf2 and sigcon im just not a fan

Not a massive fan my self cause of unequal spread of fuel, not adjusting to temperature etc but theres one big thing i like about it which is once i strapped the turbo on the car will run

Will have a look at the cost of predator, wont i need a loom with Predator?

how about megasquirt like:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Megasquirt...item43b922794b

26th February 2013, 11:50

Also how to i work out what Decomp plates i need or if i just need a couple of headgaskets

26th February 2013, 13:02

What is your END goal (not "I want X but in 12 months I want Y - what is Y) regarding power or use (ie, 500bhp drag use only, 200 fun road car, 300hp full track car etc).

That will dictate some options for you.

Forget decomp plates regardless imo - two MLS headgaskets are frequently enough for lower boost applications. Higher boost and you want to think about going forged. Remember you are ONLY lowering compression to reduce the risk of det - good mapping removes the possibility of det also, so to a point standard compression is OK too. Just mapped really well.

Just to clarify something Darren touched on also - the intercooler and pipe sizes do directly affect "lag" (technically response time). Smaller = better. You want the smallest intercooler and pipe size that are capable of doing the job for your required use. Too large and it will start to affect spool up times. Too small, and it (the intercooler) cannot dissipate the heat you're asking it to.

Come back when you've got some specific questions and we'll try and help

26th February 2013, 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

What is your END goal (not "I want X but in 12 months I want Y - what is Y) regarding power or use (ie, 500bhp drag use only, 200 fun road car, 300hp full track car etc).

That will dictate some options for you.

Forget decomp plates regardless imo - two MLS headgaskets are frequently enough for lower boost applications. Higher boost and you want to think about going forged. Remember you are ONLY lowering compression to reduce the risk of det - good mapping removes the possibility of det also, so to a point standard compression is OK too. Just mapped really well.

Just to clarify something Darren touched on also - the intercooler and pipe sizes do directly affect "lag" (technically response time). Smaller = better. You want the smallest intercooler and pipe size that are capable of doing the job for your required use. Too large and it will start to affect spool up times. Too small, and it (the intercooler) cannot dissipate the heat you're asking it to.

Come back when you've got some specific questions and we'll try and help

Hi thanks for your response, Iv seen and read about your car on other threads and its immense!

As said above I'm looking for about 180BHP using a garret T25 which is as above running approx 10PSI on a VTR engine. For a "fun road car"

I understand why decompression is important for pre-detonation i just didn't know how much i needed so i guessed (very badly).

So just to get this clear I will just need to use two head gaskets for low pressure 10PSI?

Is there any way to work out what size inter-cooler for the turbo? As this being too small will also cause pre-det from the extra heat but i don't want to get caught out and get the wrong one. 560x180MM is stated as small on ASH is this Going to be the right size ? : http://www.autosiliconehoses.com/ash...n-2-sizes.html

The pipe size i assume can only be worked out what is too large/small once the lengths required are known but id of thought the longer it is the smaller the pipe size should be?

Thanks to everyone for your replies very helpful, starting to piece the puzzle together

26th February 2013, 16:01

Two head gaskets will be fine for 10psi - and 10psi on a gt25 is fine also (or, not over driving it). Because you're well within the turbos operating zone you shouldn't be generating excessive heat - generally turbos working too hard are the biggest culprit for high inlet temps. At 10psi the gt25 will thank you. At 18psi it won't

that ASH intercooler you've linked looks an adequate size - if a little expensive. It's a generic eBay intercooler with an ASH sticker by the looks of it. Probably available for £20 or so less if you shop around.

Pipe size I meant diameter - 2.5" pipe work looks lovely in the engine bay but is hard to route as its fatter and will cause poorer response on spool up. 2" is perfectly adequate but looks a bit feeble (but is easy to route!).

Don't forget your pipe size is also dictated by intercooler inlet and outlet size - try not to step up or down if you can.

Hope that helps a little.

26th February 2013, 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

Two head gaskets will be fine for 10psi - and 10psi on a gt25 is fine also (or, not over driving it). Because you're well within the turbos operating zone you shouldn't be generating excessive heat - generally turbos working too hard are the biggest culprit for high inlet temps. At 10psi the gt25 will thank you. At 18psi it won't

that ASH intercooler you've linked looks an adequate size - if a little expensive. It's a generic eBay intercooler with an ASH sticker by the looks of it. Probably available for £20 or so less if you shop around.

Pipe size I meant diameter - 2.5" pipe work looks lovely in the engine bay but is hard to route as its fatter and will cause poorer response on spool up. 2" is perfectly adequate but looks a bit feeble (but is easy to route!).

Don't forget your pipe size is also dictated by intercooler inlet and outlet size - try not to step up or down if you can.

Hope that helps a little.

Cool will add two head gaskets to the shopping list and take off decomp plates lol

Yeah i wouldnt buy it just got a catalogue for them sat on my desk so was easy to get dimensions off of

I also meant diameter - would you not have to reduce the pipe size the further you ran it to keep pressure up? though this would reduce flow so i dont know ...

26th February 2013, 18:09

Ah right probably was dude!

But another option for you is use the standard ecu and have it mapped for boost. Thats why i got rid of the mf2 as i had the ecu converted. Single and 3 plug ecus can be done. Crabbsys saxo and mine (s1 rallye) have been the only know ones to be done and to be totally honest the standard ecu is an extremely capable unit as antilag and alsorts can be mapped into it! You just need to know the right people. If you want to go this route speak to rickyp and he can get the mapping sorted.

Saves buying new looms and ecus as its all there!!

And mine is 1mm decomp, gt25rs quite small cooler and at 10psi made 202bhp!

26th February 2013, 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by craigyt

Ah right probably was dude!

But another option for you is use the standard ecu and have it mapped for boost. Thats why i got rid of the mf2 as i had the ecu converted. Single and 3 plug ecus can be done. Crabbsys saxo and mine (s1 rallye) have been the only know ones to be done and to be totally honest the standard ecu is an extremely capable unit as antilag and alsorts can be mapped into it! You just need to know the right people. If you want to go this route speak to rickyp and he can get the mapping sorted.

Saves buying new looms and ecus as its all there!!

And mine is 1mm decomp, gt25rs quite small cooler and at 10psi made 202bhp!

Thanks thats really good to know will save me a small fortune on standalone, yeahh ill drop him a PM.

What injectors are you using for it then? clio 182?

And how much did the its cost to get yours mapped by rickyp?

26th February 2013, 18:47

Bigger than clio ones but i cant give away what they are so best off askin ricky, 390cc though i think, and mine was done at cost so to have it done will be slightly more than mine!!

But yeah its a big saving when it doesnt need to be spent!!

26th February 2013, 19:08

Okay thanks, Iv just sent him a PM

26th February 2013, 19:11

just searched rickyp and came up that last activity was 2007 are you sure thats the right user name

link:

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/member.php?u=11737

26th February 2013, 19:16

Yeah hw doest come on here anymore but hes a regular on facebook.

Or try phoning him, his numbers in the link, ringin or facebookin him is probs best

http://www.rickyp-rpm.co.uk/contact/

26th February 2013, 19:22

Why not cut out the middle man and just ring chip wizards if you want to map standard ecu

26th February 2013, 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

Why not cut out the middle man and just ring chip wizards if you want to map standard ecu

Bit far from Reading about a 3 hour drive to Lancashire thanks tho

26th February 2013, 20:08

Hes not based anywhere now though thats why its easier to go through ricky cos chip wizards doesnt have any premises anymore so may travel now!

26th February 2013, 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by andyyy

Bit far from Reading about a 3 hour drive to Lancashire thanks tho

Lol

Ricky uses wayn from chip wizards

26th February 2013, 22:18

Correct he does but wayne doesnt have a place anymore. If he has any mappin to do he will hire a rolling road and then do it there, hence why i said he may travel

27th February 2013, 00:14

Thanks i will have a think about what to do about ECU for now and get the rest off the parts whilst i decide what route to go down each different setup seems to have its own disadvantages and advantages

Ill put some down so i can be corrected if wrong

Standalone

Advantages
Widely mappable
Fully controllable

Dis advantages
Expensive
Have to create a loom for it to work

Standard remapped

Ad
Cheaper than standalone
keep original Loom

Dis
Only mapple by specialists

MF2

ad
Will run strait away
Self Mappable

dis
listed before

27th February 2013, 00:17

Standalone has resale value. Oem does not. Own also only mappable by two(?) people worldwide as far as I know for boost. Not good support.

Predator ecu is standalone but uses your existing wiring and sensors - can be mapped by virtually anyone (including yourself if you're interested in learning a little) and is now on several boosted cars - might be an option for you?

27th February 2013, 00:27

What are you doing as far as the gearbox is concerned? Can a vtr box handle 180bhp? I want to go boost in the next year but its the knock on effect/price that puts me off, the vtr gearboxes couldn't deal with the standard engine output so boost will kill it in the long run i wouldnt have thought. Would it have to be a BE4 conversion Ross?

27th February 2013, 00:33

The be4 boxes aren't the magic bullet people sometimes push them as - they are stronger, but I'm now on my 3rd...

The MA boxes are pretty weak to be fair though, but it depends how frequent you mind changing stuff. At 200hp (let's pluck numbers out the air as I am guessing/making it up as I go along) lets say you shag a box every 10000 miles. Is that ok? What about 5k miles? Or 2k? Where is your limit? People have run 300hp on an Ma box - but eventually even driven like a saint, it's going to die. If it were me? At 200hp? I'd stick with the Ma box and stick a diff in it. You'll still strip 3rd gear eventually, but fuck me, it'll be a lot of fun until it pops. And a replacement VTS box is what - £75 and an afternoon?

27th February 2013, 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnakeVTR

What are you doing as far as the gearbox is concerned? Can a vtr box handle 180bhp? I want to go boost in the next year but its the knock on effect/price that puts me off, the vtr gearboxes couldn't deal with the standard engine output so boost will kill it in the long run i wouldnt have thought. Would it have to be a BE4 conversion Ross?

Vtr Gearbox is more than capable of that i believe, diesel box would be a step up from it, but i will be changing from my 1.1 box to a VTR Box, my 1.1 box has taken a fair bit of abuse and not missed a beat but im sure a turbo vtr would kill it pretty damn quick.

Where can i get a predator ECU their website doesn't work?

27th February 2013, 00:38

Or maybe not but gearbox change is not a big job as ross says , £75 seems expensive

27th February 2013, 00:42

Shouldn't be running a 1.1 box on a Vtr anyway - will kill the box fairly quickly iirc.

27th February 2013, 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

The be4 boxes aren't the magic bullet people sometimes push them as - they are stronger, but I'm now on my 3rd...

The MA boxes are pretty weak to be fair though, but it depends how frequent you mind changing stuff. At 200hp (let's pluck numbers out the air as I am guessing/making it up as I go along) lets say you shag a box every 10000 miles. Is that ok? What about 5k miles? Or 2k? Where is your limit? People have run 300hp on an Ma box - but eventually even driven like a saint, it's going to die. If it were me? At 200hp? I'd stick with the Ma box and stick a diff in it. You'll still strip 3rd gear eventually, but fuck me, it'll be a lot of fun until it pops. And a replacement VTS box is what - £75 and an afternoon?

Very true

. My car is pretty standard but got through x1 vtr box and x2 1.4 boxes, i don't really drive it very hard (maybe go santapod a few times in the summer and get roped into the action

) so decided to go with a vts box and its been ok since, Be4 is quite expensive aswell, so i suppose the gamble with a standard box seem's worth it .Id happily change two boxes per year to have the power yours is running

. Is your box MA then Ross?

27th February 2013, 00:46

Fuck no. I'm closing in on 500hp this year - Ma just isn't cricket lol

27th February 2013, 00:50

Fucking hell 500Bhp!!!, MA wouldnt see second gear

. Lamborghini/ferrari killer

27th February 2013, 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

Shouldn't be running a 1.1 box on a Vtr anyway - will kill the box fairly quickly iirc.

probably true seems fine and keeps up with my mate 2.0L A3 and vtr's dont soo worth it especially as i have a spare i do use the recommended oil in it

27th February 2013, 00:55

Well m not there yet

but that's the rough ballpark aim. Happy with 475 tbh. 410-430 at the wheels is realistic I'd say. Anyway - enough about my shitbox!

Stick with MA - just change it out when it dies. The diff will help prolong it a little, but it's 3rd that dies first generally (stripped). The Ma box is a LOT of fun - fucking mental on boost tbh. I drove Brent's car (now ollie a) when it was about 280hp on a non-diffed MA and it was insane. Wanted to kill you everywhere lol. Not for the faint hearted! Lots if fun mind you

27th February 2013, 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by andyyy

probably true seems fine and keeps up with my mate 2.0L A3 and vtr's dont soo worth it especially as i have a spare i do use the recommended oil in it

Don't quote me, but I seem to recall the sports driveshafts (vtr/vts) being shorter than the poverty spec shafts, so fairly quickly they (the poverty gearboxes) die. If pushed in the subject I'd need to go find proof lol but sure I remember that from somewhere...

27th February 2013, 00:59

Im still running 1.1 shafts, yeahh iv heard something along those lines about being shorter so would leak on my current box , It torque steers in first and second ...

27th February 2013, 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnakeVTR

Fucking hell 500Bhp!!!, MA wouldnt see second gear

. Lamborghini/ferrari killer

500 BHP is nuts not much will keep up with that

!!

Id of thought it would be undrivable with that much power at the front wheels bet its not very forgiving !

27th February 2013, 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

Standalone has resale value. Oem does not. Own also only mappable by two(?) people worldwide as far as I know for boost. Not good support.

Predator ecu is standalone but uses your existing wiring and sensors - can be mapped by virtually anyone (including yourself if you're interested in learning a little) and is now on several boosted cars - might be an option for you?

Didnt see this, i think ill try and source a cheap MF2 first as a quick and dirty fix with plans of going Predator in the future as MF2 im looking at is relatively inexpensive (£150 complete with sig-con).

Im always interested in learning new things and mapping would be great to know

So for now MF2 and predator shortly after turbo is stup is complete as it is about £600 :O

28th February 2013, 22:56

another question guys - what about cooling is the standard radiator and fan enough to keep this from cooking?

1st March 2013, 08:45

Reading through this makes me moist for going down the turbo route!

1st March 2013, 09:01

Just for reference I've done about 10k on an ma box with 185atw's and its still going, diff whines like a pig getting raped, but still she soldiers on

And if its on the original box it's done nearly 104k

It gets some serious abuse just about l the time.. Must just be luck of the the draw with boxes.. I'd imagine if I missed a hard shift it would be bye bye to which ever gear, but not so far

1st March 2013, 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

Just for reference I've done about 10k on an ma box with 185atw's and its still going, diff whines like a pig getting raped, but still she soldiers on

And if its on the original box it's done nearly 104k

It gets some serious abuse just about l the time.. Must just be luck of the the draw with boxes.. I'd imagine if I missed a hard shift it would be bye bye to which ever gear, but not so far

Yeahh 1.1 box on the vtr is over 110K without a sound but definately down to luck a box done 100k with the right oil in it is going to be better than one thats done 30k without oil.

Lool made me laugh - "diff whines like a pig getting raped"

What are you doing for cooling on your car , stock rad and fan or bigger off somethin else ?

1st March 2013, 20:41

I use the later vtr rad which is the same size as a vts rad

And slimline fan, will be getting an extra slimline soon too help cool the car down quicker when parked after I've been for a blast about

28th February 2014, 12:21

Bump for updates.

28th February 2014, 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

Bump for updates.

On your own car??