Track car - Thermostat question (for track monkeys)

  1. Frequent Poster Joined: Apr 2012 Doyncaster Posts: 783
    #1
    Hola,

    I did my first track day in 6 months and on the way to the circuit the water temp guage was hitting 1/2 and then waving between 1/2 and 3/4 for most of the journey. Oil temp seemed fine.

    On the first run, the temps hit 3/4 and I came in anyway for a rest.

    Water then starts pi$$ing out of the overflow, just below the radiator filler cap. A good couple of litres I reckon, hit the floor.

    So I filled it and bled it to remove a suspected air lock. It seemed to run fine for the rest of the day.

    Having returned home and I checked the car the day after and the water is near empty.

    I began thinking head gasket - but I think the air lock was there before track action - what with the funny temp guage reading on route.
    There is NO oil/water contamination either... both are clear.

    A couple of chaps who race in tintops said that I should remove the thermostat - they were quite suprised I hadn't done this already - and told me put a switch for the fan on the dashboard.

    Is this the done thing to do?

    I guess bleeding might be easier anyway without the thermostat in place, as the water will constantly be flowing? I can a better eye on it not having to wait for it to open to get a true level reading?
  2. Frequent Poster Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 751
    #2
    removing the thermostat is very popular with competition engines, however since it sounds like your car is used on the road it is a big no no!

    As you know the engine should not use any water at all, if it is then you have a leak (external or internal) or as you mention it might have an airlock.

    Most garages have equipment that can check the coolant system for leaks to detect a headgasket failure.
  3. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2010 Morley, Leeds Posts: 8469 Civic ep3 type r powered by TDI NORTH
    #3
    I know quite a few high powered full on race engines that still use the thermostat. Its really not that big of a issue with them.

    By any chance do you have a early model vtr/ 8v engine? Upto around year 2000

    If you do then the blue sensor in the block is just reading the temperature of the aluminium around it. So giving a false reading on the gauge.
  4. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Aug 2010 Midlands Posts: 2530 AX 16v Turbo
    #4
    My car was overcooling on the road, I then realised the previous owner had removed the thermostat so i put it back in.

    You can run a GTI-6 thermostat in a VTS which is slightly cooler.

    Check the state of the rad too - mine was getting too hot in traffic after i replaced the thermostat and when i looked at the rad it was in a very poor state. I havent had it on the road since i bought the new one but i'm expecting a lot more stability.
  5. Frequent Poster Joined: Apr 2012 Doyncaster Posts: 783
    #5
    Cheers for the comments.

    The car is track only (well I have to drive it there - but that's it). It had done a total of 22 miles in 6 months since the last track day in 2012. (had to use it in an emergency hence the 22...).

    It's a 2001 Vts, 3 plug, so no dodgy sensor that i know of.

    It's also got a new nissens radiator that I fitted in the summer last year.

    Wondering if the lack of use has caused the original air lock?

    There's nothing falling out the bottom and there are no contamination signs, so will re-bleed and try again!

    I just thought that taking the thermostat out is something 'less' that can go wrong.. Fully circulating all the time should make the level easier to monitor?
    Especially listening to the sax max and stock hatch mechanics...
  6. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 9100 Amazon green VTR 16v, Inferno RS clio 182
    #6
    what method are you using to bleed it?
    I used an 82 degree stat in mine, I prefer it as it opens earlier
  7. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2010 South Wales Posts: 3078 ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.
    #7
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bedford126 View Post
    By any chance do you have a early model vtr/ 8v engine? Upto around year 2000

    If you do then the blue sensor in the block is just reading the temperature of the aluminium around it. So giving a false reading on the gauge.
    thats balls, how else do you measure engine temp?


    Definitely fit a thermostat, what is std temp? Most pugs i know run 83degrees, as long as fan switch is also working then you should have no issues.
  8. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 9100 Amazon green VTR 16v, Inferno RS clio 182
    #8
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by welshpug View Post
    thats balls, how else do you measure engine temp?


    Definitely fit a thermostat, what is std temp? Most pugs i know run 83degrees, as long as fan switch is also working then you should have no issues.
    I had the problem bedford mentioned. The gauge will read 3/4s when using a rallye or xsi head as the sensor doesnt go into the water way, hence I had to modify my thermostat housing to accept the sensor.
    However if the car is boiling over thats obviously another issue this guy is having, all my car did was just read high
  9. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2003 Scotland Posts: 3380
    #9
    rad cap not holding pressure?
    are hoses under pressure when hot ?
    if not cap is buggered
    run a stat and no need for fan switch unless your fan will not come on on its own jut idle car to warm and fan should come on before it gets over hot
  10. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Dec 2004 Grimsby United Kingdom (England) Posts: 5489 SUPERCHARGED saxo vts
    #10
    82deg thermo fitted, supercharged.... giving it plenty of beans.


    No overheating issues. Like john says something not right somewhere. Doubt its the thermo at fault unless its not opening but then again it would roast to death.
  11. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Aug 2010 Midlands Posts: 2530 AX 16v Turbo
    #11
    No thermostat can also cause hot spots in the engine I was told years back as the stat regulates flow too across the head. Running without a stat is not a good idea imo.
  12. Frequent Poster Joined: Apr 2012 Doyncaster Posts: 783
    #12
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sexy_gt View Post
    82deg thermo fitted, supercharged.... giving it plenty of beans.

    PLANET SAXX supercharged SAXO VS MK INDY BLADE (honda fireblade engine) Blyton Park 02/02/13 - YouTube

    No overheating issues. Like john says something not right somewhere. Doubt its the thermo at fault unless its not opening but then again it would roast to death.
    I blame the cams and bodies that were once yours...
    1 user thanked this post:
  13. Frequent Poster Joined: Apr 2012 Doyncaster Posts: 783
    #13
    I bled this yesterday twice and the dash water temp still fluctuates.

    I've just done a quick search and someone mentioned that batteries can cause this?!
    I've just replaced mine for an odessey 545.

    This has less than 640 amps, mentioned in this searched thread I found. Could this be my issue?!?!

    I hope it is.
  14. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jul 2010 South Wales Posts: 3078 ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.
    #14
    it could be if the alternator regulator isn't working properly.
  15. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Oct 2004 South Posts: 3638
    #15
    are you 100% that when you do a cold start no water trickling noise is heard? on both hot and cold (on the heater matrix) ?

    when the fan kicks in is the water hose coming from the thermostat housing getting hot / warm and by the 3rd bleed screw (smaller diam pipe) getting warm?
  16. Frequent Poster Joined: Apr 2012 Doyncaster Posts: 783
    #16
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AdamH View Post
    are you 100% that when you do a cold start no water trickling noise is heard? on both hot and cold (on the heater matrix) ?

    when the fan kicks in is the water hose coming from the thermostat housing getting hot / warm and by the 3rd bleed screw (smaller diam pipe) getting warm?
    Nothing on the matrix dude.

    The fan hasn't kicked in (in my testing just recently) but the rad was getting warm, so water is flowing. I am going to replace the thermostat and re-bleed.

    From memory the car ran fine all the way to the track on the motorway. Despite the fluctuations on the temp guage.
    When I first hammered it for a few laps, the temperature rose and I came in. On tick over, water was pissing out of the expansion/rad filler hole, the radiator was stone cold and so was the top rad hose... so would suggest the thermostat hadn't opened - either because of an air lock or its just shagged... That's my latest thinking, which is prob wrong!

    When the car eventually cooled, I topped it up, bled it, at the back bleed point (had no tools for the thermo bleed) and ran it. This time the thermostat opened and the rad was warm. After idling, the fan kicked in.

    That was a month ago.

    Will give a new thermostat a go with a bleed using that coke bottle method to increase the capacity and height of the header tank. Can only see what happens - although a compression test is onthe horizon as I'm now paranoid!
  17. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 9100 Amazon green VTR 16v, Inferno RS clio 182
    #17
    sounds like it wasnt bled correctly, you really need to use the header tank/coke bottle method and wait until the trapped air comes out into it when everything is warm and the stat is open. This will be noticeable as you'll see a stream of bubbles and the coolant mixture in the bottle will change in density/look usually. Once this is done obviously let it cool and the check the level, I dont think you'll have many problems after this providing the rest of the system is in good nick
    1 user thanked this post:
  18. Frequent Poster Joined: Sep 2010 High wycombe Posts: 698 2000 mk2 vtr
    #18
    Where can I get the 82 degree stat from?
  19. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 9100 Amazon green VTR 16v, Inferno RS clio 182
    #19
    got mine from 106parts
  20. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Dec 2002 United Kingdom Posts: 8390
    #20
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by littleblue1 View Post
    Where can I get the 82 degree stat from?
    Its a GTi6 part, so any motor factors will be able to get you one.
  21. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Oct 2004 South Posts: 3638
    #21
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sri_130 View Post
    Nothing on the matrix dude.

    The fan hasn't kicked in (in my testing just recently) but the rad was getting warm, so water is flowing. I am going to replace the thermostat and re-bleed.

    From memory the car ran fine all the way to the track on the motorway. Despite the fluctuations on the temp guage.
    When I first hammered it for a few laps, the temperature rose and I came in. On tick over, water was pissing out of the expansion/rad filler hole, the radiator was stone cold and so was the top rad hose... so would suggest the thermostat hadn't opened - either because of an air lock or its just shagged... That's my latest thinking, which is prob wrong!

    When the car eventually cooled, I topped it up, bled it, at the back bleed point (had no tools for the thermo bleed) and ran it. This time the thermostat opened and the rad was warm. After idling, the fan kicked in.

    That was a month ago.

    Will give a new thermostat a go with a bleed using that coke bottle method to increase the capacity and height of the header tank. Can only see what happens - although a compression test is onthe horizon as I'm now paranoid!
    air was trapped then, the main ones are the one near the radiator and the thermostat one.. If the top hose was hold after a track session then yes the thermo didn't open and for the sake for 5 quid you may as well replace.. flush out the system and the radiator tho whilst your at it and get the gunk out and use a header tank or the bodged coke bottle with insulation tape (my genuine header tank cost me about 18 quid)

    also when bleeding ones u have a steady stream from the lower and thermostat one, if it bubbles for ages on the top then a gentle squeeze of the top hose can help draw the air out.
    1 user thanked this post:
  22. Frequent Poster Joined: Apr 2012 Doyncaster Posts: 783
    #22
    fitted a 306 82º thermostat and bled.
    so far, so good.
    thanks for all the input
  23. Infrequent Poster Joined: Feb 2013 staffordshire Posts: 133 saxo vts (2000 single plug&mk2) and a civic type r
    #23
    I had a new stat once, that was faulty, kept over heating and blowing my header tank cap off lol, changed my stat and bled it, been great ever since, even under alot of abuse. Dodgy stat!