Cams HELP :/

7th March 2013, 14:44

Basically a garage fitted my 16v engine to my vtr. The cambelt was changed, since then its been whining. so i took it back to the garage thinking its too tight. they are saying it isnt and that its the cams themselves that are making the noise :/. what does this mean?? he said it could be the cam carrier bearings :/. are they hard to change??
thanks

7th March 2013, 14:48

Cams dont whine at all. its the belt alt or timing belt to tight or a knakerd bearing.

Cam carriers dont have bearings they just have journals. If there was no noise before the belt change then its domething they have done 100%

7th March 2013, 14:51

Check the alternator belt if there too tight they whine like a bitch.

7th March 2013, 14:55

Well i never heard the engien running before the belt change :/. is thier no way cams could whine?? not getting enough oil or anything??

7th March 2013, 15:09

Must be cammed.

7th March 2013, 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlawlan69

Must be cammed.

How so?? would a cammed engine whine?? i personally thought it was the belt and he says its not. what are cam journals??

7th March 2013, 15:35

Cheap cam belts frequently whine. What brand belt did they use?

7th March 2013, 15:37

My money is on the cam belt being over tight. slacken the alternator belt back off a bit and see if it stops?

I gather you aren't too mechanically minded as a garage have fitted the engine for you, so just go in and complain until they fix it.

7th March 2013, 16:34

Its a continental belt kit. Erm well a bit of history... i fitted my first 16v and didnt change the cambelt. then the cambelt tensioner came loose after a week the belt jumped off bending all 16 valves. then i didnt have the time to fit the second 16v. so i got a garage to do it. its runs sweet. just an odd whining coming from the left gand side of the engine. So i took it back as i was adamant its the timing belt. Now he's saying its the cam itself making the noise. i just dont know what to make of it as im rubbish with internals :/. Im gunna take it too another garage and see what they say as this garage wants to change the journal/carrier bearings or some shizzle as he says thats what it is. sorry for the essay :/

7th March 2013, 16:43

Oh and i provided the cambelt kit they just fitted it

7th March 2013, 16:54

The cam shafts have no bearings matey the cam sits in the head and the cam carriers bolt it down. They have oil ways to each journal. He cant change anything in that area as there is nothing there to change lol.

Conti belts are quite good quality, Ive fit a fair few of them and never had one make a noise. Take the alt belt off anr run the engine see if the noise is still there. If it is then its got to be the timing belt or a bearing. Did you supply a full kit or just a belt?

7th March 2013, 16:56

sounds like they are fobbing you off mate

7th March 2013, 17:11

I supplied a full cambelt kit. to me it sounds like thier ripping me off aswell. thanks for all the input guys. ill keep yous updated

7th March 2013, 17:57

I'm saying,
Cambelt to tight,
Causing one of the cams to be pulled down to hard, so it's not running on an oil film and now running on your head.

Had the exact problem with a mates quite recently.

7th March 2013, 18:44

Tight belt shouldnt be able to bend the cam so much as to block a journal really i imagine the belt would snap well before that pressure is reached. That is providing if the carriers are all bolted down at the correct torque's.

7th March 2013, 19:18

The cam has a certain amount of Clearance in the journals,
With space is taken up by the oil film which is under pressure, the cam runs on the film,
But if you exert to much pressure on the cam it will break the film causing it to run on the alloy surface producing the whine.
It's nothing to do with blocking oil way.
And I assure you the cam will bend easily to do what I've described above.

I've worked on alot of hydrodynamic grinding wheel spindles in my time, and they work on the same theory.

7th March 2013, 20:00

Cambelts *tighten* when they get hot, so they will feel ok when cold then when they warm up will squeal like a piggie.

also the plastic cam cover sometimes catches the cams at the back so it could be that

The cams have no mechanism to physically 'whine' so it's not the cams themselves in the head

7th March 2013, 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by luthor1

Cambelts *tighten* when they get hot, so they will feel ok when cold then when they warm up will squeal like a piggie.

also the plastic cam cover sometimes catches the cams at the back so it could be that

The cams have no mechanism to physically 'whine' so it's not the cams themselves in the head

Obviously you've never heard a material harder than alloy running on alloy... Metal to metal.
It whines worse than my ex gf.

7th March 2013, 20:30

...so put simply, we all agree the cambelt is probably too tight?

7th March 2013, 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by gazza808

The cam has a certain amount of Clearance in the journals,
With space is taken up by the oil film which is under pressure, the cam runs on the film,
But if you exert to much pressure on the cam it will break the film causing it to run on the alloy surface producing the whine.
It's nothing to do with blocking oil way.
And I assure you the cam will bend easily to do what I've described above.

I've worked on alot of hydrodynamic grinding wheel spindles in my time, and they work on the same theory.

I know how they work. Ive built alot of engines. I cant imagine the force from a belt thats to tight to do that at all. Ive seen first hand the damage from a belt that snapped due to being to tight and there was no journal wear on the cam's at all.

7th March 2013, 21:08

And I've built alot of spindles and engines.

I have first hand experience of too much belt tension wearing the surrounding bearing material, if I was in the work shop I'd show you the results of too much belt tension on a 10inch diameter spindle that the belt was over tensioned, and wore the bearing due to breaking the oil film.

I also have first hand experience of a belt that was too tight on a saxo 16v lump that was squealing. After changing all idlers, water pump and tensioners, an even removing the alternator the mystery squeal was still there. So I came to investigate before he hung himself lol, and using just a screw driver touching the head and the handle to my ear I could hear the squeal through it, removed the front cam cover and the squeal was coming from the bearing cap closest to the pulley.
Loosened off the belt abit. Squeal gone.

but just do a search on here for the mystery squeal almost 99 percent of the time it's belt too tight.

But if people don't want to listen then I'm not overly fussed.

8th March 2013, 15:56

So when i get my car back later what should i do to find the route of the whine. I mean like can i take the cam covers off and turn the engine on?? Sorry i just suck with internals lmao.

8th March 2013, 15:58

try slackening (a fraction!) the belt first!

8th March 2013, 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

try slackening it fraction! the belt first!

And if i slacken it and its still making the noise how would i go about finding which journals are making the whine. Like is it dangerous to turn the engine on with the cam covers off?? thanks

8th March 2013, 16:37

you wont notice a whine turning it by hand.
you could try backing it off, I probably would myself but you should ake it to the garage and let them do it

8th March 2013, 17:27

Pop the alternator belt off first and start the engine see if the noise is still there.

13th March 2013, 14:37

Just a quick update guys. the car went into a different garage today. the guy has said basically that he's had the cam belt and altenator belt off and the noise is still thier. he says its comin from the top left hand side of the engine. He then said that i shouldnt worry about it unless it gets worse. i dont really now what to do now :/. Could thier be something wrong with the cam closest to the windscreen?? or should i just take his advise and leave it?? these cars do have a habbit of fixing themselfs lol

13th March 2013, 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrome233

Just a quick update guys. the car went into a different garage today. the guy has said basically that he's had the cam belt and altenator belt off and the noise is still thier. he says its comin from the top left hand side of the engine. He then said that i shouldnt worry about it unless it gets worse. i dont really now what to do now :/. Could thier be something wrong with the cam closest to the windscreen?? or should i just take his advise and leave it?? these cars do have a habbit of fixing themselfs lol

wha!?

13th March 2013, 15:54

Im on my phone -_- lol.
What i meant to say was hes checked the cambelt and taken the alt belt off and its not either of them

27th March 2013, 11:26

Anybody got any other ideasof what the whine could be?? as i really feel like im breaking my car -_-

27th March 2013, 11:40

check the water pump.

27th March 2013, 11:48

Ive been told by two mechanics though its nothing to do with belt. its the coming from under the back cam cover. if this is the case and the cams carriers are two tight could i just loosen them off and tighten them back up again?? or will i damage something??

27th March 2013, 12:26

are they the original cam carriers and the dowels are present?

27th March 2013, 14:39

Tbh with you i dont know what dowels are lol. And also ive never had the cam covers off so i dont know :/

3rd April 2013, 14:39

Right im pretty much back at square one. after thinking it the noise was internal i now think other wise because it get louder as the engine gets hotter. Also i took it to a local engine specialist who rebuilds engines everyday. he said thier is no question it is something on the on the cambelt. As if it wer internal say the cams on alloy it would of siezed by now as its done 2000 miles like this. -_- do water pumps whine when thier fucked??

3rd April 2013, 15:22

Yes, as said on previous page, either your cambelt is too tight because they TIGHTEN WITH HEAT, or the plastic inner/outer cambelt covers are chaffing on the pulley wheels.

you need to remove the outer plastic cambelt cover, get the engine baking hot, then stop and feel the belt tension.

The cambelt is NOT A TENSION FIT, it has teeth so should not be spring-tight like the alternator! when baking warm you should still be able to turn it 90 degrees at its longest point, it shouldn't resemble a top E-string on an electric guitar!!

3rd April 2013, 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrome233

Right im pretty much back at square one. after thinking it the noise was internal i now think other wise because it get louder as the engine gets hotter. Also i took it to a local engine specialist who rebuilds engines everyday. he said thier is no question it is something on the on the cambelt. As if it wer internal say the cams on alloy it would of siezed by now as its done 2000 miles like this. -_- do water pumps whine when thier fucked??

With respect, did you not read anything anyone has been posting previously?

3rd April 2013, 15:58

if the whining gets louder as engine warms --the belt is too tight --very common for people to overtighten belts --if left tight it will pull the bearings out of the water pump ,or snap the tensioner stud .
the head expands up a long way when hot ,as its alloy -so slightly tight when cold makes it very over tensioned when hot .
I always reccomend that if people do not have the proper belt tension tool ,then leave belt cover off till its hot and check belt when hot .
you could always ask them what tension (in seems units ) they adjusted it to . if they look at you funny --then you know they don,t have an electronic belt strain gauge
this is why the jp4 engine has a sprung loaded tensioner to allow for this problem --but do not run this type of tensioner with high lift cams +high rpm ----