safe bhp

1. wullvfr Established Member Joined: Jan 2009 killin,perthshire Posts: 1561 Audi a3 1.8sport,kawasaki zx9r c2,Yamaha R1 track

   #1 2nd August 2013, 12:53

   I'm considering rebuilding the goosed engine from the vts and fitting a turbo
   
   Question is how much power can I get from the std engine safely without changing the internals?
   
   Ideally I'd want between 170-200bhp as that would suit me,I'm not wanting big power and if I could achieve this without changing the internals then that would be sweet
2. Gandi699 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 9100 Amazon green VTR 16v, Inferno RS clio 182

   #2 2nd August 2013, 12:55

   that all depends on how well its mapped and what you are including in that statement. I take it you mean utterly standard bottom end no compression changes?
3. wullvfr Established Member Joined: Jan 2009 killin,perthshire Posts: 1561 Audi a3 1.8sport,kawasaki zx9r c2,Yamaha R1 track

   #3 2nd August 2013, 13:17

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by Gandi699 that all depends on how well its mapped and what you are including in that statement. I take it you mean utterly standard bottom end no compression changes?

   I've edited my first post,was a bit brief.....on the phone and at work equals pain in the erse.
4. wullvfr Established Member Joined: Jan 2009 killin,perthshire Posts: 1561 Audi a3 1.8sport,kawasaki zx9r c2,Yamaha R1 track

   #4 2nd August 2013, 13:25

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by Gandi699 that all depends on how well its mapped and what you are including in that statement. I take it you mean utterly standard bottom end no compression changes?

   I've edited my first post,was a bit brief.....on the phone and at work equals pain in the erse.
5. Oli-VTR Frequent Poster Joined: Aug 2011 Nottingham/South London Posts: 976 Icelandic Grey VTR Mk2

   #5 2nd August 2013, 14:08

   Depends on budget. Don't know much about internals and all that but if you'll always want more power, and it might work out cheaper to future proof your engine rather than rebuilding it time and again
6. wullvfr Established Member Joined: Jan 2009 killin,perthshire Posts: 1561 Audi a3 1.8sport,kawasaki zx9r c2,Yamaha R1 track

   #6 2nd August 2013, 14:58

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by Oli-VTR Depends on budget. Don't know much about internals and all that but if you'll always want more power, and it might work out cheaper to future proof your engine rather than rebuilding it time and again

   Was thinking that,I could take my time and do it right but then again when I only want x amount of power is it worth spending loads on bulletproofing the engine???
   
   But I suppose if I wanted to go big power then I'd already have a safe engine so no ersing about with that.....
   
   It's a catch 22
7. Tom5190 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 Someones Bumhole Posts: 5721 Mk2 16v Desire

   #7 2nd August 2013, 17:03

   Turbo or N/A? BHP doesn't really govern what the limits are. You wont really make anymore than 165hp on a naturally aspirated engine with standard pistons. That's in a J4.
8. wullvfr Established Member Joined: Jan 2009 killin,perthshire Posts: 1561 Audi a3 1.8sport,kawasaki zx9r c2,Yamaha R1 track

   #8 2nd August 2013, 17:19

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by Tom5190 Turbo or N/A? BHP doesn't really govern what the limits are. You wont really make anymore than 165hp on a naturally aspirated engine with standard pistons. That's in a J4.

   
   
   So I'd need to uprate the internals then?
   
   Is not a big issue,just means the time scale will be a bit longer as some parts are pricey but the end result will be good and in the future if I want to increase the power a bit more it won't be an issue.
   
   The plan with the replacement engine that's going in this week coming is to increase the power to roughly 130-140bhp and that will do for the time being.
9. Tom5190 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 Someones Bumhole Posts: 5721 Mk2 16v Desire

   #9 2nd August 2013, 17:23

   Are you talking about N/A? N/A isn't as easy to just simply upgrade at a later date as turbo stuff is to be honest. If you build it to 165ish hp on standard bottom end then later on you decide you want another 10hp then it wont be just pistons you need to change you will likely need some new cams and a few more revs along with solid lifters, springs etc etc.
   
   If your staying N/A then id advise deciding on a spec you want based around your ideal power figure and your budget and sticking to that.
   
   170-200 is a huge difference in terms of parts from an N/A engine.
10. user_32315 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2009 Uppingham, Rutland Posts: 9569 mk1 JP4'd VTR, '16 Fabia Monte Carlo

    #10 2nd August 2013, 18:15

    as tom said 160 bhp is pretty easy to get, set of fast road cams, bolt on some throttle bodies and plug in an ecu and get it mapped, if you then decide to go further the cams and the map yopu just bought (around £600 worth of parts) will be made redundant, obviously cams can be sold on but the mapping price is lost
    
    then different cams, pistons, lifters, springs, head work, conrod bolts, maybe even conrods depending how anal you are, then you're are talking a pretty substantial amount of money, £2k+ without labour and the inital cost of the bodies and ecu again around the £2k mark) so with n/a its best to deicde on spec from day one
    
    for 160 bhp na is the way to go but if you want to get to 200bhp cheap as poss then turbo is probably the way to go
11. wullvfr Established Member Joined: Jan 2009 killin,perthshire Posts: 1561 Audi a3 1.8sport,kawasaki zx9r c2,Yamaha R1 track

    #11 2nd August 2013, 19:13

    I never said n/a at all for the rebuild,read the first post.
12. Tom5190 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 Someones Bumhole Posts: 5721 Mk2 16v Desire

    #12 2nd August 2013, 19:36

    Yea that's why I'm asking lol. Which one is it turbo or N/A? I'm confused as to what you want going turbo or N/A is completely different and different rules apply. You could see 220hp with turbo on standard internals but like I said N/A wont really go much further than 165. Not because components are weak just that at that point valve lift becomes to much without pockets.
13. wullvfr Established Member Joined: Jan 2009 killin,perthshire Posts: 1561 Audi a3 1.8sport,kawasaki zx9r c2,Yamaha R1 track

    #13 2nd August 2013, 20:22

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tom5190 Yea that's why I'm asking lol. Which one is it turbo or N/A? I'm confused as to what you want going turbo or N/A is completely different and different rules apply. You could see 220hp with turbo on standard internals but like I said N/A wont really go much further than 165. Not because components are weak just that at that point valve lift becomes to much without pockets.

    
    Its for the goosed engine that I am going to rebuild and turbo so the question is solely for turbo.......and not n/a.
    
    The engine that is going into the vts this weekend coming in staying n/a and I plan on getting that to around 140bhp which I'll be more than happy with.
    
    The reason I asked about the rebuild engine is if I don't need to change the internals it means I can get the ball rolling quicker.my goal for the rebuild would be 170-200bhp so its nothing mental.....I want useable power,something that can be used wisely with little traction problems.
14. axsaxoman Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2003 Scotland Posts: 3380

    #14 5th August 2013, 09:15

    220bhp on std internals ?
    If that REAL bhp then------------ good luck

    1 user thanked this post: user_39461
15. wullvfr Established Member Joined: Jan 2009 killin,perthshire Posts: 1561 Audi a3 1.8sport,kawasaki zx9r c2,Yamaha R1 track

    #15 5th August 2013, 11:52

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by axsaxoman 220bhp on std internals ? If that REAL bhp then------------ good luck

    
    What would be safe on std internals?
16. user_57064 Established Member Joined: Jan 2012 south essex!! Posts: 2442 posi blue vtrs race car

    #16 5th August 2013, 12:02

    170ish
17. jones91 Established Member Joined: Jun 2011 Bridgnorth (Shropshire) Posts: 2001 Jdm Dc2 Integra

    #17 5th August 2013, 12:18

    Depends on a number of factors when running boost, mainly if its been used for track/road etc and the quality of the management & mapping
    
    If a no expense spared approach was used and if the car was only being used on the road for let's say 5 second acceleration stints, then standard internals should hold 250bhp without too much trouble
    
    However if your using a 5th injector and its being used for track days then I wouldn't push it past about 170bhp
18. user_57064 Established Member Joined: Jan 2012 south essex!! Posts: 2442 posi blue vtrs race car

    #18 5th August 2013, 12:38

    mapping is the biggest stumbling block, a good map.. ok youll pay for it but it will make the difference between going for a while or not...
    
    thats it in the long and short really...
19. user_39461 Super Moderator Joined: Nov 2009 Cambridge(ish), UK. Posts: 10581 BMW 5x M50d.

    #19 6th August 2013, 22:01

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by axsaxoman 220bhp on std internals ? If that REAL bhp then------------ good luck

    But John... Surely you know of the 420+bhp Dutch 106 running standard internals?