N/A 160bhp from a VTS/GTI J4

26th December 2013, 13:39

Wouldn't be asking much to get a naturally aspirated 160bhp at the flywheel from a J4 would it?

What kind of things am I looking at for that sort of power ?
Exhaust manifold
Exhaust system
Camshafts
Cold air feed
Remap.... ?

And what sort of modifications would I be looking at getting 160bhp at the wheels?

Exhaust manifold
Exhaust system
Camshafts
Cold air feed
Remap
Ports match to in/ex manifolds
Ports polished
Polished throttle body
Small skim on the cylinder head
Lightened and balanced flywheel
Lightened and balanced crank and rods

Would that kind of thing get them there?

I've got a vtr that just isn't powerful enough felt great for the first week then got bored, fitted a magnex system and piper 4-1 felt good again for a few days and once again now I'm bored so went and looked at putting a j4 or jp4 head on my vtr engine found it's not that hard but money wise I'd be better off buying a vts engine in the first place, so now I'm looking at. What I'd need to sit my car at 160bhp (at the flywheel/or the wheels)

Cheers Kieren

26th December 2013, 14:17

I built my mates AX up with a VTS engine with a few mods ; catcam 708s, Milltek 4-2-1, Raceland induction kit with Green filter, Scorpion exhaust. Mapped with a Dastek, it made 152bhp. I think it actually made a little more than that , chapping on 155, but didnt get near 160. That said, a bit more time spent playing with mapping and swinging the cams, 160 might be doable.

26th December 2013, 14:18

Thats at fly. Would take a fair bit more to get 160@wheels!

26th December 2013, 14:20

I think for roughly 150-160bhp you'd be looking at

Uprated cams(catcams 708/743's and similar)
4-2-1 manifold
Full decat system,I recommend the saxsport 2" race system
Induction kit

And a remap on the std ecu,I'm not sure if places still do maps for the std ecu but if not you can either buy a standalone ecu or a dastek unichip q or similar that allows the std ecu to be mapped,if you plan on going for more power later on then a standalone ecu,predator ecu or similar will be a good route to go down.

As for gaining more you'll be looking at

Throttle bodies
Cylinder head work

And possibly uprating valves,springs and followers and other wilder cams but tbh on the std internals and 743's,I'm sure with a good throttle body set up,some cylinder head work and a good map,170-180bhp should be doable.

Will take a fair bit to achieve 160whp and tbh 160bhp or so at the flywheel will feel plenty fast,you'll notice a big difference in comparison to your vtr with just a standard vts.

26th December 2013, 14:29

Dont waste money on bodies for 160@fly. Isnt worth the money. Ive been there.

for 160@wheels id suggest low (ish) supercharger boost.

no messing with cams, timing or fitting pistons.

dont be scared of a charger kit costing the earth, they can be found cheap even proper rotrex ones.

26th December 2013, 14:38

So I'm looking at 150/160bhp at the flywheel, what kind of power does that put to the wheels ? I'm going to be keeping my vtr gearbox for the slightly longer ratios mainly because the cars my daily so don't want it screaming at 75/80 on the motorway and it's just been rebuilt so should be reliable as long as I keep hard standstill launches to a minimum...

26th December 2013, 14:56

160 at wheels buy my engine if you want that
that made 163 at the wheels 187 at flywheel

3500 quid
forged lairy cams itbs and omex 600 series

26th December 2013, 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexB

160 at wheels buy my engine if you want that
that made 163 at the wheels 187 at flywheel

3500 quid
forged lairy cams itbs and omex 600 series

3 an a half k !!! Do I get a go on your misses as well for that? That's stupid money on a j4

26th December 2013, 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by KierenCrawford

So I'm looking at 150/160bhp at the flywheel, what kind of power does that put to the wheels ? I'm going to be keeping my vtr gearbox for the slightly longer ratios mainly because the cars my daily so don't want it screaming at 75/80 on the motorway and it's just been rebuilt so should be reliable as long as I keep hard standstill launches to a minimum...

Not entirely sure but I'd say your looking at roughly 135-145whp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexB

160 at wheels buy my engine if you want that
that made 163 at the wheels 187 at flywheel

3500 quid
forged lairy cams itbs and omex 600 series

Quote:

Originally Posted by KierenCrawford

3 an a half k !!! Do I get a go on your misses as well for that? That's stupid money on a j4

Its going to cost a fair few quid to get 163whp and buying one that's ready to go ain't a bad shout.

When you factor in all the costs for cams,throttle bodies,ecu,mapping of ecu etc etc and the ball ache of getting it all fitted and set up then 3.5k is a good price.

The way I look at it is over time I can hopefully build a spec that's good because I don't have a lot of cash straight up but if I did have the disposable income then I know what I'd be doing.

26th December 2013, 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by KierenCrawford

3 an a half k !!! Do I get a go on your misses as well for that? That's stupid money on a j4

Would you like to buy my J4? I'd probably settle for a round £15,000. All ancillaries included.
I jest. Not for sale. Certainly not for half what I've spent.

26th December 2013, 15:51

I WILL CHANGE THE FUTURE OF TUNING A TU ENGINE !!!! Ahah

I'm gonna go down to the unit for a few months and see what I can do about building my own inlet manifold to suite bike carbs/bodies I've got a megajolt from my fiesta already so il just need to get it wired in, il let people know what the out come is, there has to be a more cost friendly approach to tuning a saxo/106/ax. Compared to other things in there class they may be standard with a good competitive power but once tuned unless money isn't a factor they would get left for dust by fiestas/micras/clios/even corsa's can be cheaply modded for good bhp cheaply (although would never go through the shame of owning one)

26th December 2013, 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by KierenCrawford

I WILL CHANGE THE FUTURE OF TUNING A TU ENGINE !!!! Ahah

I'm gonna go down to the unit for a few months and see what I can do about building my own inlet manifold to suite bike carbs/bodies I've got a megajolt from my fiesta already so il just need to get it wired in, il let people know what the out come is, there has to be a more cost friendly approach to tuning a saxo/106/ax. Compared to other things in there class they may be standard with a good competitive power but once tuned unless money isn't a factor they would get left for dust by fiestas/micras/clios/even corsa's can be cheaply modded for good bhp cheaply (although would never go through the shame of owning one)

Sophia_bush has already beaten you to it.
He can make you a itb manifold to suit Gsxr bodies for £550ish iirc, all you need is to map it.

26th December 2013, 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by ed-bradley

Sophia_bush has already beaten you to it.
He can make you a itb manifold to suit Gsxr bodies for £550ish iirc, all you need is to map it.

Literally looking at doing the same kind of thing but we'll see how it goes

26th December 2013, 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

Would you like to buy my J4? I'd probably settle for a round £15,000. All ancillaries included.
I jest. Not for sale. Certainly not for half what I've spent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KierenCrawford

3 an a half k !!! Do I get a go on your misses as well for that? That's stupid money on a j4

How about mine running 220bhp+ NA ?? Lol

26th December 2013, 18:26

To get 160bhp out of a VTS engine, you need 4-1 exhaust manifold and decent straight through exhaust without cat, any of the big names, you need to port out the exhaust side on the cylinder head (this is crucial!!), you need 708/PH3 cams, and you'll need throttle bodies.

The best cam/exhaust/manifold/ecu/cold air car I saw was 147bhp. Please don't believe all these 155bhp remaps you see it's pure fantasy land.

The reality is the car makes 120bhp as standard and is 1587cc. To make 160bhp you must be MORE THAN 100BHP per LITRE. This is extremely rare and very advanced tuning. It will require the headwork to be done and the throttle bodies fitted. A 33% increase in air flow is not achieved by just cams and exhaust/manifold.

26th December 2013, 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by luthor1

To get 160bhp out of a VTS engine, you need 4-1 exhaust manifold and decent straight through exhaust without cat, any of the big names, you need to port out the exhaust side on the cylinder head (this is crucial!!), you need 708/PH3 cams, and you'll need throttle bodies.

The best cam/exhaust/manifold/ecu/cold air car I saw was 147bhp. Please don't believe all these 155bhp remaps you see it's pure fantasy land.

The reality is the car makes 120bhp as standard and is 1587cc. To make 160bhp you must be MORE THAN 100BHP per LITRE. This is extremely rare and very advanced tuning. It will require the headwork to be done and the throttle bodies fitted. A 33% increase in air flow is not achieved by just cams and exhaust/manifold.

Thanks for the help buddy, 100bhp per liter is exsactly what I'm after!!!!

26th December 2013, 19:48

i ve made 180 na whithout itbs...

got:

hi-comp pistons
skim head
special size gasket
715 cat cams
tricky valves and valve springs hats
the head made by a ducati race mecanic.
true balaced evrything on the block
the intake as modified oem bodie ..
saxo cup ecu.
daluz replica 4-4-1 and good decated line..
and several other secrets i cant say!!

maybe the dyno was wrong..

26th December 2013, 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by solvi

i ve made 180 na whithout itbs...

got:

hi-comp pistons
skim head
special size gasket
715 cat cams
tricky valves and valve springs hats
the head made by a ducati race mecanic.
true balaced evrything on the block
the intake as modified oem bodie ..
saxo cup ecu.
daluz replica 4-4-1 and good decated line..
and several other secrets i cant say!!

maybe the dyno was wrong..

Please inbox me some secrets !!!!!!!!

26th December 2013, 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by KierenCrawford

3 an a half k !!! Do I get a go on your misses as well for that? That's stupid money on a j4

cost in excess of 9 to build...
and i dont have a misses so nope you dont

stupid is a matter of opinion tbh
and when you outdrag a 60k m3 suddenly its not so stupid

26th December 2013, 20:20

theres no secret. you have to throw money at the issue to buy high quality parts that are matched to do the right job. Generally bike bodies give poor results. They are generally fitted with poorly designed manifolds. I only know of Colin Satchells which are any good. If you think you can build it for a few hundred quid you are mistaken. Add up how much Solvi has spent and you are into some serious money.
AlexB's engine is well worth the asking price in reality. So what if your car is only worth £300. Old cars are cheap. New parts for old cars are not.

26th December 2013, 21:09

Ive got a standard vts here (ok it has induction kit) but made 137.6bhp.

Explain that.

26th December 2013, 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexy_gt

Ive got a standard vts here (ok it has induction kit) but made 137.6bhp.

Explain that.

I want your engine !!!

26th December 2013, 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexy_gt

Ive got a standard vts here (ok it has induction kit) but made 137.6bhp.

Explain that.

An over reading dyno??

26th December 2013, 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexy_gt

Ive got a standard vts here (ok it has induction kit) but made 137.6bhp.

Explain that.

over reading dyno, run done in wrong gear, wheel->fly calculation done wrong?

26th December 2013, 21:47

My black bodies 708 cammed and mapped with correct afr made 151 on same roller.

Same day 20 minutes later also run in same gear.

26th December 2013, 22:24

eBay electric supercharger induction kit stew?

Would explain it all lol!

27th December 2013, 11:52

I have just been down this route, spent a lot of money over the last 3 years.
made 170 bhp at flywheel.

vts engine running:
708 cams
at power throttle bodies
piper 421 ss manifold
magnex decat exhaust system
predator ecu

Also had my injectors sonic bathed.

Car feels very fast now in the higher rev range.

27th December 2013, 23:40

Would be a waste to run an R box!
S is a much better one for a N/A 16 valver!

28th December 2013, 08:30

With a engine tuned to 150/160 bhp I can't personally see you would really notice the difference other than how much quieter ot would be on the motorway...

The reactions are every so slightly different and in 5th at 70 it sits. 500rpm lower which is enough to bring the noise right down

28th December 2013, 09:04

If you are the same guy that is talking to me on facebook, you seem like a good guy, but you really need to re think what you are wanting to do and how to get the results.
In any form of modifying the rule of thumb is 'you get what you pay for'

Saxos and 106 have had sooooo many people try new and innovative things that we are pretty much at the top of what they can do, with only a few people pushing things further (satchell engineering for example).

The comment you made about Alex's engine is a bit moronic to be honest. Proper engine tuning costs alot to get results, especially with n/a tuning.
Even at the low end of proper tuning my 8v engine cost more then 5/6k to build
Alex's cost over 9k
And JP's, well it's in double figures ill tell you that.

I strongly urge you to try and go out in a few peoples cars and actually see what they are like. It will change your mind, mine is a strong engine that can hold it own very well, and easily pass the likes of cupra r's, focus st's, sport clios, astra vxr's etc, then Alex's that can out drag m3's!!

Its just a case of accepting that to do this properly its going to cost alot. Then accepting what you want and what you actually need from the car.

You could always buy a cheap ebay turbo kit, but it would last all of 5 mins before it destroyed you engine in a fantastic way and then the costs would be even more to fix it.

28th December 2013, 11:09

I am more than hands on and am Mabel to use a welder to a very high standard/lathe/cns/milling machines as well as all mechanical aspects, there isn't a lot I can't do my self, on here I have just been toying with various different set ups to see what would be the best route to go down, the information is on this sites least but none of it is in the same place and I've found myself bookmarking about 60 different threads aha, none of the above is even the path that I'm going to be going down now as I'm going to stick with the ph2 vtr lump and the rollor rocker head, I know the cylnder heads are non known to be the greatest but ive found that most 8valves reach peak power before 7k and that there are lots of people running cams such as ph3s and itb's with the limiter set at 7200/7500 and I've even found a bloke running 7800rpm for the past 10k on itb's and a kent PT41 and he hasn't had a single problem as yet...

28th December 2013, 13:01

I run too 8.3k and make peak power at 7.5k

For the time and effort you will put into making your own parts, will it really be worth it?
I can say with most certainty that any set up you make yourself for itb's or bike bodies will produce poor results in comparison to the kit sandy and colin make for example.
The sandy b gsxr setup provides good results and is inexpensive compared to others, hence not many people doing it themselves.

The point im trying to make is if you want results then use tried and tested items. And if you cant afford it then save.
Send a few pm's about to forum members like alex,josh,me etc and ask what they paid to get their results, i think you will be shocked.

Im not going to stop you going and making your own bits, by all means go for it, just dont be disappointed when it doesn't give you the results.
I can weld, and have access to various lathes and cnc machines, but i dont have the knowledge of things like pulse timing, inlet tracts, cylinder head porting etc. Which people like Colin satchell, Sandy brown, the guys at atspeed, do have.
Ive done ALOT of work on my car myself and others will back me up in that. But it's knowing when to step back and let the professionals do their thing.

28th December 2013, 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by MR_N

I run too 8.3k and make peak power at 7.5k

For the time and effort you will put into making your own parts, will it really be worth it?
I can say with most certainty that any set up you make yourself for itb's or bike bodies will produce poor results in comparison to the kit sandy and colin make for example.
The sandy b gsxr setup provides good results and is inexpensive compared to others, hence not many people doing it themselves.

The point im trying to make is if you want results then use tried and tested items. And if you cant afford it then save.
Send a few pm's about to forum members like alex,josh,me etc and ask what they paid to get their results, i think you will be shocked.

Im not going to stop you going and making your own bits, by all means go for it, just dont be disappointed when it doesn't give you the results.
I can weld, and have access to various lathes and cnc machines, but i dont have the knowledge of things like pulse timing, inlet tracts, cylinder head porting etc. Which people like Colin satchell, Sandy brown, the guys at atspeed, do have.
Ive done ALOT of work on my car myself and others will back me up in that. But it's knowing when to step back and let the professionals do their thing.

I agree tried and tested parts are the most practical and easiest way to go about it all be it exspencive!!!, but who wants to go and buy the same parts that's 1'000s of other people have and can buy aswell? I want mine to be different and to have things on it that no one else can buy, one off self made parts, sandys itb kit is amazing but saying that no one would be able to build something just as good maybe you couldn't but I know I could, it would take a few hit and misses but I'd prefur to do it my self then see the end results and be able to say it's my hard work that's gone into it and then have much more of a understanding of how it all went together, everyone likes there own things I guess and my personal opinion on things is that I like to know that I've seen to every little detail on a part to make sure it's how I'd like it...

All the people on here with nicely tuned cars yourself included drive down the road with a pugsport/saxsport/piper/kam/magnex ect exhaust all sound exsactly the same, and the same with people all buying newmann ph3s ect all have the same out comes I don't want a copy of so done else's car or something someone else already has...

Just my view on it, people may think it's stupid/wrong/or whatever but no body ever made progress copying each other it was made by people exspecrementing different things

28th December 2013, 15:21

^^ lets see you create the next gen mods then. Not being sarcastic.

28th December 2013, 15:37

What are you building this for? Track? road?

28th December 2013, 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexy_gt

^^ lets see you create the next gen mods then. Not being sarcastic.

I will try and for track mainly AndySAXO

30th December 2013, 08:33

I would be using a rallye or xsi head if chasing big 8v power.

30th December 2013, 09:00

think you need to do some more maths
a vtr g/box is 18%higher geared than a vts -so to get the same acceleration you would need at least 20% more power than a similar car with vts g/b
there is no track in uk that you will pull flat out in 5th with a vtr box ,which would be 162mph @7250rpm
any serious track car is LOWER geared than road car ,cos if you ain,t flat out in top on longest straight --then you will be a slow lap , even touring cars with 300bhp are only geared for 130-140 @8000rpm
as for beng noisey on cruise --no you will be light throtlle on cruise so fuel consumption etc--if mapped correctly wil be very close to std .internal combustion tuning has been going on for 100 years --there are no miracle things to do that will release loads of power cheaply .what ever you come up with i promise you its been done before and not done cheaply
If its track fun you want fitting a c/r gear kiit =dif and lowering overall ratio by 25 5 gives you 25% more effective power at wheels --leave engine std except for small mods and it will eat a 160bhp car with a vtr box --on a track or a drag strip

30th December 2013, 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexy_gt

Ive got a standard vts here (ok it has induction kit) but made 137.6bhp.

Explain that.

I've got a Standard GTi 106, and it's 135hp. well, aftermarket 4-2-1 and Janspeed exhaust but that's it. standard air box with K&N panel.

I've used stop watch and the OBD to measure, I can do 6.7 seconds (0-62) all day long.

so 135hp atf could be accurate.

I can only assume my engine has worn in such a way that it's a perfect match to the factory map. Some of these 16v's seem to produce more power than others.

Modifying petrol is too expensive, so I'm just fitting a turbo to my 1.5D for the same performance

Spent £250 so far, all I need is an external wastegate and I'm ready to go LOL

31st December 2013, 09:53

doubt it will be be as quick
std diesel is what ? 50bhp so that will mean at least 1.4bar of boost and an intercooler -
don,t strech the revs on it I would advise using a pump from a zx turbo or something one with the diaphragm on the top to correct for boost

31st December 2013, 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

doubt it will be be as quick
std diesel is what ? 50bhp so that will mean at least 1.4bar of boost and an intercooler -
don,t strech the revs on it I would advise using a pump from a zx turbo or something one with the diaphragm on the top to correct for boost

It drives very much like a petrol as an NAD. peak hp is at 5000rpm, so it'll be stretched a wee bit, because with the standard governors I can't rev it past 4800 under load.

Probably going to fit a 9mm VE from a DTurbo.

I might not need a pump with an LDA, I've seen people pushing 200hp from 1.9 with the LDA disconnected, just coals like feck off boost

You should know that amount of boost depends on the turbo I fit

(I'm using a GT15)

It's 58-60hp for the 1.5D

7th January 2014, 19:46

Could maybe use mega squirt ecu

8th January 2014, 11:01

you must remeber this engine was never designed as a diesel --that why they never turboed it --
you choice of turbo will not alter the amount of boost reuired to get 120 bhp --it will need over 1bar of boost and a good intercooler =suitable fuelling --aprox twice as much fuel -
one of my men had a zx 1,9 tubo and we played about with that -- the black smoke on full power was lke a destroyer laying smoke --that was the KKK turbo --which is the easiest to alter boost with
better to fit a 1.6hdi --then you can have power = economy and clean emissions

8th January 2014, 13:12

What parts are you planning on making yourself? As someone said the lathe/welding/fabrication skills are pretty useless when your making engine components if you cant accurately draw the components first and understand what it is your making.

8th January 2014, 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

you must remeber this engine was never designed as a diesel --that why they never turboed it --
you choice of turbo will not alter the amount of boost reuired to get 120 bhp --it will need over 1bar of boost and a good intercooler =suitable fuelling --aprox twice as much fuel -
one of my men had a zx 1,9 tubo and we played about with that -- the black smoke on full power was lke a destroyer laying smoke --that was the KKK turbo --which is the easiest to alter boost with
better to fit a 1.6hdi --then you can have power = economy and clean emissions

It'll be fine! I've seen one raced with the same gear running 130hp and 190ftlb and it lasted 4500 miles of racing and fast road use with a spun bottom end from the very start!

20-25PSi, no intercooler or oil cooler

EGT's approaching 850 degrees c

Shouldn't be too much smoke on boost

I'll be taking it to FCS, or Pugfest. I don't think I could manage both, that's a lot of driving.

9th January 2014, 12:06

spun bottom end ?? don,t know that phrase
at what rpm was max torque

9th January 2014, 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

spun bottom end ?? don,t know that phrase
at what rpm was max torque

the only spinning on the bottom end ive heard of is spinning the shells... but it would have rodded itself within seconds at high rpm...

9th January 2014, 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

spun bottom end ?? don,t know that phrase
at what rpm was max torque

I meant scored bottom end, not spun.

3250rpm

Peak hp was at 4000 ish

17th January 2014, 23:50

one off the secrets is the gearbox....take a oem engine + shorter box and the bring me focus rs ,rx8 ,cupras, hondas, super lazy porsche boxter cup racer,etc.

i miss my car...and the summer!!

18th January 2014, 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexB

160 at wheels buy my engine if you want that
that made 163 at the wheels 187 at flywheel

3500 quid
forged lairy cams itbs and omex 600 series

I've saw the spec of this engine and is an impressive spec.
People look at the price and think otherwise but what you're also getting is the bodies and the standalone ecu that's got to be nocking on towards the 2k mark alone and that's with out the engine itself. I get the impression a lot of man hours and money have gone into this no doubt about it and for someone to but this and drop it straight into a Saxo / 106 and it's going to be insane. Achieving Bhp is very expensive and Ye figures this NA engine produces is prob near to a low build turbo so whoever does buy this is not going to have to chase more power and will surely be impressed. Great engine buddy

18th January 2014, 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by French4ever

I've saw the spec of this engine and is an impressive spec.
People look at the price and think otherwise but what you're also getting is the bodies and the standalone ecu that's got to be nocking on towards the 2k mark alone and that's with out the engine itself. I get the impression a lot of man hours and money have gone into this no doubt about it and for someone to but this and drop it straight into a Saxo / 106 and it's going to be insane. Achieving Bhp is very expensive and Ye figures this NA engine produces is prob near to a low build turbo so whoever does buy this is not going to have to chase more power and will surely be impressed. Great engine buddy

If I had the cash that engine would be going straight in my AX!

18th January 2014, 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabbastard

If I had the cash that engine would be going straight in my AX!

That would be fun

21st January 2014, 08:57

mains = rod journals are same size as acosworth --so the crank should never be a problem --with good oil supply =baffled sump ,if its doing lots of trackdays