Tuning a VTS

21st September 2014, 23:36

I shall be looking at getting a 16v engine in the next few weeks.
I'm looking at the J4 engine, unless anyone has a reason as to why a JP4 is better?
Anyway, I'm looking at cams, solid lifters, uprated valve springs etc and it looks like it's gonna cost a fortune to do it properly!
I've mainly looked on Pug1Off, any other sites to try, looked at KamRacing too.
I'm also possibly interested in standalone management if not too much money! I was looking at the PH5 cams cos they'd give a great gain but looks like they need too much work to run!

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21st September 2014, 23:48

The second hand parts market for VTS/106 GTI is far bigger than that of the 8v engines so most bits you can pick up for half the price.

If the cams are to aggressive then your going to need a remap, which can be a lot a money in regards to the gains it gives, your best to do as much as you can without a remap, and then have it done so it covers all the modifications you have done.

22nd September 2014, 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jigs2895

The second hand parts market for VTS/106 GTI is far bigger than that of the 8v engines so most bits you can pick up for half the price.

If the cams are to aggressive then your going to need a remap, which can be a lot a money in regards to the gains it gives, your best to do as much as you can without a remap, and then have it done so it covers all the modifications you have done.

Ohhh ok cheers

Yeah, I don't mind getting a remap if it mean I can run PH4 cams but it's when it gets into standalone ecu etc. But if you can pick up a standalone for not too much, I might do it because then I can do whatever to the engine and just change and tweak the map each time.

I'm just wondering about gains from solid lifters etc. I'm wanting to get some head work done as well, bigger valves, gas flowed etc.
Any recommendations for some where for that?

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22nd September 2014, 08:37

As above collect and fit all your parts before getting it mapped to get the most out of it

22nd September 2014, 09:00

for the money you spend, having spoken to a few people that have done the cams and remap etc route, its not that worthwhile. It does make them quicker top end but at a fair cost.

My VTR has a JP4 engine with stock j4 (vts/gti) cams and stock single plug vts ecu. Its more than quick enough to be a laugh, its good on fuel and runs smoothly and nicely.

Most j4 engine you find now have done 100k plus and are tired. Its easy to find low milage JP4s, mines done 35K now and the block and head still look like they are new. The Jp4 has bigger valves so they make a bit more power too.

22nd September 2014, 09:11

Tuning the 16v engine N/A has a few different levels you can progress to;

First of which worth doing would be breathing mods and fast road cams;
Filter
Manifold
Decat exhaust
Standard bottom end and head.
Fast road cams such as Cat Cams 708's, 734's, Piper 285's, Newman PH3's etc.
These cams can be run without a remap but wouldn't really be worth doing. Standard ECU can be mapped and should expect power between 145-150bhp.

Next state of tune you can add individual throttle bodies and a standalone ECU. Expect 165-170bhp and an improved midrange. The standard ECU can be mapped by Wayne at ChipWizards for use with throttle bodies. If it was me I would go for a standalone, will provide more options for future tuning and probably a more comprehensive map.

After this you could go for a high compression engine with higher lift cams.
High compression pistons.
Standard rods.
Ported JP4 head.
Standard sized valves.
Newman PH4's, Cat Cam 734's.
Throttle bodies.
Standalone ECU.
Uprated valve springs & caps.
Manifold.
Decat exhaust.
etc.

Power will be up for 180-190bhp. Probably the best compromise if you want an exciting fast road engine without getting into solid lifter builds costing much more.

Finally, to achieve 200bhp + you will require a FULL engine build and more aggressive cams.
Throttle bodies.
Steel rods.
High comp pistons.
Solid lifters.
Well worked head.
Standalone.
Decat exhaust.
Some special cams (there are off the shelf cams available for solid lifter builds but I would go for something custom specced by your engine builder).
etc etc.

You can achieve anywhere from 200bhp to around 230bhp if your pockets are deep.
Sandy Brown is the best N/A engine builder in this field. He can build you a very useable 230bhp engine but you will be looking at a waiting list and a bill of £10k+.

Hope this helps...

22nd September 2014, 11:13

Spend £10k to get 230bhp NA, or spend <£2k and get 250bhp boosted.

Know what I'd do

22nd September 2014, 11:18

Dont try to build an engine to suit the camshafts. Build an engine to suit your cars purpose and your budget. Dont build a race engine to go to the shops.

22nd September 2014, 12:25

Ok well my needs is fastest I can for the road but my budget is about £1000 at the most. That includes engine, and engine rebuild bits like head gasket, valve seals etc etc.
I want some head work doing, stiffer valve springs, then the best cams I can for it!

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22nd September 2014, 12:36

Keep the 8v and Bhooooooooooooossttttt dat shizz.

22nd September 2014, 12:41

8v's work nicely with boost, i can give you a part number of an IHI turbo i used on a 1.4, spooled at about 2800 rpm? full boost at about 4500, awesome powerband, 16v's seem really peaky with a narrow powerband with a turbo, that vts lump i had on a turbo never had the broad powerband the 8v did, and tbf, that little 1.4 held up with about 280bhp worth of boost, only blew up when the turbo passed a fair bit of oil and bent a rod, otherwise it was a right cracker, 150mph in a saxo is scary lol

22nd September 2014, 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

Spend £10k to get 230bhp NA, or spend <£2k and get 250bhp boosted.

Know what I'd do

Looking at the peak figures I totally agree but I suppose its down to personal preference.
I really like the way NA engines drive and the linier power delivery. I wouldn't like to pay the bill on tuning one.
I hate the way turbo'd engines come on boost and tail off higher up the revs. (Of course this is just a stereotype and it can be overcome, again with more money and special turbo's cam choice etc).
Supercharged would a good compromise for me.

22nd September 2014, 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex-W

Looking at the peak figures I totally agree but I suppose its down to personal preference.
I really like the way NA engines drive and the linier power delivery. I wouldn't like to pay the bill on tuning one.
I hate the way turbo'd engines come on boost and tail off higher up the revs. (Of course this is just a stereotype and it can be overcome, again with more money and special turbo's cam choice etc).
Supercharged would a good compromise for me.

gt17 turbo on a 16v will spool by 2.5k and be on peak boost by 3k rpm. If your goal was 230bhp then it'll hold peak boost until the redline, but provide more torque across the whole rev range than an NA car.

It's just about choosing carefully. You only get lag when aiming for higher power really - the "low power" cars (200ish hp) have almost no preceived lag at all.

22nd September 2014, 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbrady72

Ok well my needs is fastest I can for the road but my budget is about £1000 at the most. That includes engine, and engine rebuild bits like head gasket, valve seals etc etc.
I want some head work doing, stiffer valve springs, then the best cams I can for it!

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In that case I would look out for a low mileage 16v on eBay, buy all the service bits as cheap as possible (maybe someone on here could help you out with trade discount) and go for;
K&N Gen 2 Filter
Newman PH3 cams
Piper/Supersprint exhaust manifold
Saxsport/Supersprint decat exhaust
Chipwizards remap
150bhp

If you get hold of a JP4 head I believe you need to swap the J4 running gear over. It has slightly larger valves as standard. No need for any further headwork at that stage. Just make sure all the valves and springs etc are in good working order.

150bhp cammed 16v's drive pretty nice in my opinion. Nice and revvy.

22nd September 2014, 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

gt17 turbo on a 16v will spool by 2.5k and be on peak boost by 3k rpm. If your goal was 230bhp then it'll hold peak boost until the redline, but provide more torque across the whole rev range than an NA car.

It's just about choosing carefully. You only get lag when aiming for higher power really - the "low power" cars (200ish hp) have almost no preceived lag at all.

+1 turbo if done right will have plenty of power everywhere, valve overlap kills a turbo build, common mistake that one, thats where the crap power delivery comes from

22nd September 2014, 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dany4494

Keep the 8v and Bhooooooooooooossttttt dat shizz.

I was thinking of using the 16v engine for a bit, camming the 16v etc so using that for a bit then building the 8v in the garage for a turbo?

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22nd September 2014, 12:58

Will I need forged pistons for 200ish bhp on boost though?!

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22nd September 2014, 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbrady72

Will I need forged pistons for 200ish bhp on boost though?!

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No idea iirc blackie knows his shit he had a beast 8v.

22nd September 2014, 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dany4494

No idea iirc blackie knows his shit he had a beast 8v.

Ok cheers, I could always build the 16v for a turbo? 8v have a bit more room in the bay etc though so I'd have thought it was a bit easier with an 8v?
I just want more powaaaa

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22nd September 2014, 13:06

Im not sure why people seem to boost vtr's more than S no idea why ?

22nd September 2014, 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dany4494

Im not sure why people seem to boost vtr's more than S no idea why ?

8v's seem to spool the turbo a bit quicker, and imo, the 8v's are stronger, seen way to many vts lumps spit their toys out....

22nd September 2014, 13:09

Decent link here.

http://www.cituninguk.com/serv_turbocharging.aspx

22nd September 2014, 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbrady72

Will I need forged pistons for 200ish bhp on boost though?!

No. And for 200hp, you could consider actually not even lowering the compression. If it's mapped right on good fuel, should be epic. AS LONG as you're only going to 200. If you keep the standard compression, you'll have mega spool and off-boost performance.

I'd boost a 16v any day of the week over the 8v. 8v's have less torque (with or without boost).

22nd September 2014, 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dany4494

Decent link here.

http://www.cituninguk.com/serv_turbocharging.aspx

Cheers I'm going to message them now. They say at 6psi of boost I'll get a 30-40Bhp gain which would take me to 150-160Bhp.
Any ideas Ross or anyone else, where I'd go from there to get 200ish? They say above 9psi to fit low comp pistons?

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22nd September 2014, 18:47

Also would any cams be needed or help if I turbod it? Even just ph2 or 3s?

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22nd September 2014, 21:40

Standard cams are the cams to use up to 300hp.

You don't need forged low comps really until 200+ and if I were on a budget if probably not do it until 230 or more.

To get more power than 160 you just need more fuel and air - so more boost (or larger turbo) and bigger injectors. Its as simple as that really.

22nd September 2014, 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

Standard cams are the cams to use up to 300hp.

You don't need forged low comps really until 200+ and if I were on a budget if probably not do it until 230 or more.

To get more power than 160 you just need more fuel and air - so more boost (or larger turbo) and bigger injectors. Its as simple as that really.

Awesome cheers, would I need standalone ecu then? I'm feeling a bit out my depth at the moment, not too sure what I should be buying or looking at really. Don't wanna spend lots but don't know where to start!
I really like the looks of the cituning exhaust manifold....and that's about it so far haha

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22nd September 2014, 22:27

Also, I'm struggling to find an unlocked ecu and wiring loom for a vts engine

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23rd September 2014, 08:59

If you can track down a predator ecu, that's the ecu to use really, because no matter what mods you do, it's flexible enough to be remapped by most mappers as it's based on a very common firmware platform.

You don't "need" a cituning manifold (you could cut and shut a cast standard manifold for example) but they do make life a bit easier.

There's some guides on low cost / low boost turbo builds already - well worth a look if you're seriously contemplating it.

23rd September 2014, 09:35

Blackie is the man to talk to about low BHP boost I would imagine.

Ross obviously has a wealth of experience with high performance boost monsters but I believe Blackie has made a few now.

23rd September 2014, 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

If you can track down a predator ecu, that's the ecu to use really, because no matter what mods you do, it's flexible enough to be remapped by most mappers as it's based on a very common firmware platform.

You don't "need" a cituning manifold (you could cut and shut a cast standard manifold for example) but they do make life a bit easier.

There's some guides on low cost / low boost turbo builds already - well worth a look if you're seriously contemplating it.

If not a predator, what about an omex ecu? But standalone ecu and mapping is gonna be like 1k before all the parts isn't it?

And I know about the manifold but the cituning one looks awesome.

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23rd September 2014, 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbrady72

If not a predator, what about an omex ecu? But standalone ecu and mapping is gonna be like 1k before all the parts isn't it?

And I know about the manifold but the cituning one looks awesome.

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Omex + £600, plus loom (£200) plus fitting then mapping (say £400). Would easily be £1200. Predator is plug and play, uses your existing wiring, and at £400 (2nd hand price) gives you some buffer for mapping etc.

The DP manifold looks pretty good too but any aftermarket manifold is expensive - as Brett has said, have a look at Andy's build - he's just using a cast manifold and it's working well

23rd September 2014, 11:52

For a grand. One 16v engine/gearbox and some 743 Cat cams. Sod getting a bigger valve head. I'm yet to see any benefit over the VTS head on a road car.

Turbo and Supercharging is fun but you need to do it right and thats at minimum double your current budget.