Looking at warping my manifold

1. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

   #1 22nd September 2014, 12:13

   Looking at putting Heat warps on my manifold on a vtr. I know it's a weird Q but would I get anything from doing it or not.
   
   I have a 4-1 manifold. Would this be the size I am looking for ??
   
   
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2. Mi5terSIR Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Valley boy me.... Posts: 205 saxo vtr 1.4, xsara was my last car

   #2 22nd September 2014, 12:21

   from what i know, it keeps engine bay temps down, i have heard some noise about it insulating the manifold and increasing the efficiency of said manifold, but take that with a pinch of salt
   
   10m should be more than enough
3. user_64763 Established Member Joined: Jun 2013 York Posts: 2134 Citroen Saxo VTR (2001)

   #3 22nd September 2014, 12:21

   I think you mean wrapping, if you were to warp it you'd be changing the shape of it.
   As for gains, it'd keep the heat out of the engine bay a bit more so more cold air would reach the air filter, in real life you wouldn't feel any gains though.
   It does look good sometimes too
   
   
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4. ghaz Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 116 Rover 400 Citroen AX JDM Honda Integra

   #4 22nd September 2014, 12:25

   Bare in mind that wrap can trap moisture against the manifold causing rust.
5. user_39461 Super Moderator Joined: Nov 2009 Cambridge(ish), UK. Posts: 10581 BMW 5x M50d.

   #5 22nd September 2014, 12:43

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by ghaz Bare in mind that wrap can trap moisture against the manifold causing rust.

   Not on a stainless manifold.
   
   But more importantly, it can be a trap for fluids. A small oil leak suddenly becomes a serious fucking fire risk if it's on a wrapped manifold.
   
   On an NA car, the gains are negligible. On a boosted car, I'd say it's worth it personally - turbo manifolds can get mighty hot - keeping intake temps down is even more important.

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6. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

   #6 22nd September 2014, 12:51

   My manifold is stainless steal and I have been told that you need to try and keep the engine cold for better performed and I have a cold air intake pipe that gose to my kn. just fort I had seen some ppl warp the manifold to keep the temp down so it's better and they look nice lool
   
   
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7. user_46658 Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Aug 2010 Little Mill, South Wales Posts: 7547 Mondeo ST TDCI Saxo VTS

   #7 22nd September 2014, 12:53

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by ghaz Bare in mind that wrap can trap moisture against the manifold causing rust.

   Really? The manifold gets pretty bloody hot, would have thought anything on there would evaporate pretty quickly. Obviously oil won't but any other form of moisture would I imagine.
8. user_39461 Super Moderator Joined: Nov 2009 Cambridge(ish), UK. Posts: 10581 BMW 5x M50d.

   #8 22nd September 2014, 12:56

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by cashew1989 My manifold is stainless steal and I have been told that you need to try and keep the engine cold for better performed and I have a cold air intake pipe that gose to my kn. just fort I had seen some ppl warp the manifold to keep the temp down so it's better and they look nice lool Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

   The air intake temperature needs to be cold - not the engine itself.
   
   PS - please try and word your posts in English and not using text speak - we have users who's native language may not be English so struggle at the best of times to understand, and who can't comment/help if they don't know what you're saying.
9. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

   #9 22nd September 2014, 12:59

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by Ross The air intake temperature needs to be cold - not the engine itself. PS - please try and word your posts in English and not using text speak - we have users who's native language may not be English so struggle at the best of times to understand, and who can't comment/help if they don't know what you're saying.

   
   Oh ok will word it better sorry about that
   
   
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10. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #10 22nd September 2014, 13:06

    And aswell dose anyone know how to photoshop( I think that is what it's called ) could they make them red plz
    
    And this is what my engine looks like at that min
    
    
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11. jpclassics Newbie Joined: May 2014 West Sussex Posts: 18 '03 Saxo VTR

    #11 22nd September 2014, 13:12

    From my experience its the resin in cheap wrap that tends to cause corrosion, even on low grade stainless. Also if you leave any gaps in the wrap you induce hotspots that can cause problems.
    
    There is also a school of thought that keeping heat in the manifold can induce heatsoak into the head, not something I believe.
    
    All of this said, you won't notice any difference, unless its a race engine running at maximum revs all race, and then we would use Zircotec because its a whole load better.
12. user_39461 Super Moderator Joined: Nov 2009 Cambridge(ish), UK. Posts: 10581 BMW 5x M50d.

    #12 22nd September 2014, 13:17

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jpclassics From my experience its the resin in cheap wrap that tends to cause corrosion, even on low grade stainless. Also if you leave any gaps in the wrap you induce hotspots that can cause problems. There is also a school of thought that keeping heat in the manifold can induce heatsoak into the head, not something I believe. All of this said, you won't notice any difference, unless its a race engine running at maximum revs all race, and then we would use Zircotec because its a whole load better.

    I have used zircotec on 16v manifolds for the last 4 years. It is good but many times the price of a wrapped manifold. On a boosted engine, I believe you can notice a difference - faster spool being primary. I've not much experience trying to extract maximum power from NA though so can't comment on that.
13. user_64763 Established Member Joined: Jun 2013 York Posts: 2134 Citroen Saxo VTR (2001)

    #13 22nd September 2014, 18:21

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cashew1989 And this is what my engine looks like at that min Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Give your engine bay a big clean and you'd have a decent looking bay!
    Not sure why your breather filter goes to where it does though, get that sorted to and it'd alright
    
    
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14. Pricklep Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 31279 Citroen Saxo VTS, S60 D5

    #14 22nd September 2014, 18:45

    I wouldnt bother.

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15. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #15 22nd September 2014, 18:51

    I got the breather filter going that way as fort it would be ok there. Where should it be ??
    
    
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16. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #16 22nd September 2014, 19:08

    And is there anything else other. Then water to clean the bay ?
    
    
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17. user_64763 Established Member Joined: Jun 2013 York Posts: 2134 Citroen Saxo VTR (2001)

    #17 22nd September 2014, 19:10

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cashew1989 I got the breather filter going that way as fort it would be ok there. Where should it be ?? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    It doesn't necessarily need be anywhere but looks a bit untidy there and the cable tie doesn't look great that's all
    
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18. Saxovch22 Established Member Joined: Feb 2011 Scotland Posts: 1191 02 Saxo Vts

    #18 22nd September 2014, 19:37

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cashew1989 And is there anything else other. Then water to clean the bay ? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Engine degreaser, an old toothbrush and plenty elbow grease
19. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #19 22nd September 2014, 20:01

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Saxovch22 Engine degreaser, an old toothbrush and plenty elbow grease

    
    Can I get the engine degreaser from Halford lol
    
    
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20. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #20 22nd September 2014, 20:02

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jbrady72 It doesn't necessarily need be anywhere but looks a bit untidy there and the cable tie doesn't look great that's all Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk

    
    I can make it look tidy but where would you put the filter ??
    
    
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21. user_64763 Established Member Joined: Jun 2013 York Posts: 2134 Citroen Saxo VTR (2001)

    #21 22nd September 2014, 20:42

    Look what ive done with mine, or you could get a catch tank!
    
    
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22. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #22 23rd September 2014, 00:59

    That's nice mate but my filter dosnt have a bit to fit like urs I can only put the tube inside the filter but will have a go at cleaning it after work 2mor. Nice air filter on there I am looking at getting one of theses lol
    
    
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23. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #23 23rd September 2014, 01:01

    And what's a catch tank ????
    
    
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24. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #24 23rd September 2014, 01:05

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cashew1989 And what's a catch tank ???? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    
    Don't worry about this one just look up a catch tank mite look at getting one as they look nice and looks easy to fit dose. What dose the catch tank do. ?
    
    
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25. ghaz Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 116 Rover 400 Citroen AX JDM Honda Integra

    #25 23rd September 2014, 08:46

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cashew1989 Don't worry about this one just look up a catch tank mite look at getting one as they look nice and looks easy to fit dose. What dose the catch tank do. ? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    If you have to ask what it does, you don't need it.
26. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #26 23rd September 2014, 08:49

    are they any good ??
    
    
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27. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #27 23rd September 2014, 11:44

    I dont see the point in wrapping the manifold on a near standard engine unless you have a problem with heat.. If you have a cheap manifold which is thin metal you could crack at the welds as it cannot naturally expand and contract as it heats and cools.
    If your ancillaries are failing due to heat, first look at using a heat shield, moving the component or using a heat resistant cover on the part.
28. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #28 23rd September 2014, 12:42

    something like this ??
    
    
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29. ghaz Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 116 Rover 400 Citroen AX JDM Honda Integra

    #29 23rd September 2014, 12:58

    Don't think the standard heat shield would fit an aftermarket manifold as you would have no fixing points to bolt it to, someone correct me if I am wrong.
30. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #30 23rd September 2014, 14:20

    What kind of shield should I be looking for so I can see it lool
    
    
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31. user_61020 Established Member Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 2009 Saxò VTS 16v

    #31 23rd September 2014, 15:36

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ross Not on a stainless manifold. But more importantly, it can be a trap for fluids. A small oil leak suddenly becomes a serious fucking fire risk if it's on a wrapped manifold. On an NA car, the gains are negligible. On a boosted car, I'd say it's worth it personally - turbo manifolds can get mighty hot - keeping intake temps down is even more important.

    That is more than enough from putting me away from it,i don't even think the temps change in the engine bay would be noticeable anyway.
32. holdawayt Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2010 Stourbridge Posts: 7338 Nissan 200sx S14a

    #32 23rd September 2014, 15:53

    For the love of all things fuckable please stop putting "lol, looool" etc at the end of your posts. You even used text talk (plz) straight after saying you'd stop.
    
    You don't need to wrap your manifold, you don't need an oil catch can and you don't really need the cold air feed. It's a standard motor, it doesn't need any of this crap. Build a high spec engine with boost and we'll start considering how to keep engine bay temps down and intake temps low. You won't notice a scrap of difference other than having a messy bay.
    
    Plus exhaust heat wrap is vile, itchy stuff. I'd only ever fit it again through necessity rather than just for looks.
33. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #33 23rd September 2014, 16:02

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by holdawayt For the love of all things fuckable please stop putting "lol, looool" etc at the end of your posts. You even used text talk (plz) straight after saying you'd stop. You don't need to wrap your manifold, you don't need an oil catch can and you don't really need the cold air feed. It's a standard motor, it doesn't need any of this crap. Build a high spec engine with boost and we'll start considering how to keep engine bay temps down and intake temps low. You won't notice a scrap of difference other than having a messy bay. Plus exhaust heat wrap is vile, itchy stuff. I'd only ever fit it again through necessity rather than just for looks.

    
    Thank you for the information.
    Sorry for still text talking will try not to if I can help it. How would I go about building a high spec engine, where would I start ??
    
    
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34. holdawayt Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2010 Stourbridge Posts: 7338 Nissan 200sx S14a

    #34 23rd September 2014, 16:08

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cashew1989 Thank you for the information. Sorry for still text talking will try not to if I can help it. How would I go about building a high spec engine, where would I start ?? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Honestly, do some research on here, look through the project threads of some highly modified cars. You can normally tell the decent ones with the amount of pages the threads have.
    Read up on how engines actually work, ideal fueling ratios etc.
    
    You'll most likely find that a better starting point would be a VTS engine that's had a service. The VTR lump is great with a turbo but with your level of understanding I'd stick to natural aspiration for now.
    
    It's all about walking before you can run. No point throwing loads of money at a crap engine hoping it'll make a difference when you don't understand what the parts do.

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35. user_39461 Super Moderator Joined: Nov 2009 Cambridge(ish), UK. Posts: 10581 BMW 5x M50d.

    #35 23rd September 2014, 16:20

    As Tom has said really.
    
    VTS lump, properly loved and serviced. Then an aftermarket manifold and exhaust. Standard airbox, performance panel filter.
    
    THEN if you're feeling adventurous some cams and a remap. Set up well, that should have you somewhere around 150bhp and with the paperweight of the saxo, you'll be plenty quick enough
36. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #36 23rd September 2014, 16:38

    When I got this saxo vtr the owner said it had been remap but there was no paper work to say. I can't tell if it had been remap or not and it's got 140 on the clock.
    I have been looking for a Vts but can't really find one unless it's up for space or repair on eBay and other site could any one give me a good place to look for one thank you
    
    
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37. Oli-VTR Frequent Poster Joined: Aug 2011 Nottingham/South London Posts: 976 Icelandic Grey VTR Mk2

    #37 23rd September 2014, 21:35

    If you really want to warp your manifold I'd get it really really hot then hit it with something
38. KamRacing Saxperience Addict Joined: Nov 2006 A farm shed in Aylesbury Posts: 14916 Corolla AE86 Peugeot 205 B18C (in bits)

    #38 24th September 2014, 09:52

    Heres what I would do. If you want more power on a pure road car then buy a VTS. Stick with an 8v if you are a purist, or constrained by race regs or insurance
    
    I'm a big fan of not doing work if I dont have to and VTS models have reached rock bottom. Hold out and buy the car in the same colour and its win win.
    
    If you want to tune it, i'd personally just fit an induction kit and a manifold and exhaust system. Theres a fair bit of power going to a 50mm system and removing the cat.
    
    Kindest regards
    Kev
39. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #39 24th September 2014, 10:03

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KamRacing Heres what I would do. If you want more power on a pure road car then buy a VTS. Stick with an 8v if you are a purist, or constrained by race regs or insurance I'm a big fan of not doing work if I dont have to and VTS models have reached rock bottom. Hold out and buy the car in the same colour and its win win. If you want to tune it, i'd personally just fit an induction kit and a manifold and exhaust system. Theres a fair bit of power going to a 50mm system and removing the cat. Kindest regards Kev

    
    Thank you and I am looking at getting a pipecross viper induction kit. I have all the above manifold 4-1 d-cat with no mid box past owner said it's remap but no paper work to say so. Dose any one on here know how to photoshop I want to see what my car would look like with red rims
    
    
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40. axsaxoman Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2003 Scotland Posts: 3380

    #40 25th September 2014, 16:02

    makes me laugh --postion of lambda sensor --just stuck in one pipe --
    totally wrong-y
    ou better hope the cylinder it is on never runs rich and the ecu then corrects --making all other lean as buggery and causing pistons to melt
41. user_64763 Established Member Joined: Jun 2013 York Posts: 2134 Citroen Saxo VTR (2001)

    #41 25th September 2014, 16:40

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cashew1989 Thank you and I am looking at getting a pipecross viper induction kit. I have all the above manifold 4-1 d-cat with no mid box past owner said it's remap but no paper work to say so. Dose any one on here know how to photoshop I want to see what my car would look like with red rims Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Don't need to photoshop it, I can tell you what it'll look like...shit.
    
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42. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #42 25th September 2014, 20:06

    Lol ok what colour would go with the car as I will be getting them cleaned up and was hoping to paint them aswell. Was thinking white, red or lime green ? Need help of this one
    
    
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43. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #43 25th September 2014, 20:08

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by axsaxoman makes me laugh --postion of lambda sensor --just stuck in one pipe -- totally wrong-y ou better hope the cylinder it is on never runs rich and the ecu then corrects --making all other lean as buggery and causing pistons to melt

    
    Hi mate is this to do with my car ???
    
    
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44. tiger1983 Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 279

    #44 25th September 2014, 20:42

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cashew1989 Hi mate is this to do with my car ??? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Your lambda sensor needs to be in a single pipe lower down (when all 4 pipes join into 1) atleast that way your ecu will be monitoring all 4 cylinders not just the 1 that it is now
45. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #45 26th September 2014, 01:04

    is this my lambda sensor and what dose this mean. Could I be able to see if the Ecu is remap Thanks
    
    
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46. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #46 26th September 2014, 01:04

    If it is then what would happen if I unplug it ??
    
    
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47. holdawayt Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jan 2010 Stourbridge Posts: 7338 Nissan 200sx S14a

    #47 26th September 2014, 08:34

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cashew1989 If it is then what would happen if I unplug it ?? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    It would run rich, potentially making the fuel wash the oil from the bores.
    Take it to any exhaust place (other than the one you took it to) and get it blocked up and repositioned further down the manifold.
48. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #48 26th September 2014, 08:39

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by holdawayt It would run rich, potentially making the fuel wash the oil from the bores. Take it to any exhaust place (other than the one you took it to) and get it blocked up and repositioned further down the manifold.

    
    When I got the car the manifold was already done I just put a new pipe from where the cat sit to the back box. Would the dude who fitted the new back box know how to block it up and repositioned it again ??
    
    
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49. MuZiZZle Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Jul 2011 Newcastle upon Tyne Posts: 7779 Phase 2 VTS , E61 M5

    #49 26th September 2014, 08:54

    I'm selling a CDA, just saying
50. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #50 26th September 2014, 16:40

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tiger1983 Your lambda sensor needs to be in a single pipe lower down (when all 4 pipes join into 1) atleast that way your ecu will be monitoring all 4 cylinders not just the 1 that it is now

    
    As you can see I have 2 lambda sensor
    
    
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51. tiger1983 Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 279

    #51 26th September 2014, 17:57

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cashew1989 As you can see I have 2 lambda sensor Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Sometimes your find one just before the cat and another just after but they should always be on a single pipe after the manifold. That way your ecu is getting readings from all 4 cylinders, at the moment yours is only watching 1 so any changes in the other 3 will not be spotted and the ecu won't change things to match until the second sensor (providing that is on a single pipe) sends the 2nd lot of info to the ecu. Personally I would go and get that one sealed off, relocated if needed but I wouldn't leave it where it is.
52. cashew1989 Infrequent Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 163

    #52 26th September 2014, 18:58

    It's got 2 lambda sensor one on top as u seen in pic and one on another pipe but lower down
    
    
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