got any ideas?

5th October 2014, 15:37

looking for the way forward of pulling a few more horses from my 1.4, please dont say get a vts lump, i dont want nor can afford nor find one around by me.

to start, specs

TU3JP silvertop

Kent PT40K (standard pulley and timing marks)
VTR inlet
K&N cone
piggyback i road mapped myself

i have a 4-2-1 mani for it, but im not really sure if there is much point in it, will i get much gains for it or will i get the same if i make merry with me die grinder, i should point out its not the first time i ported something, i was fortunate enough to be taught by a very good tuner, nigh on jesus that bloke!

also, any benefits from a port and polish on the head? or is it already a well sorted head? heard some heads dont gain much, i dont really know a lot about the Z06 head.

green valve springs from a 1.3 rallye engine, will they fit with no bother? i think i will benefit from stiffer springs having it be cammed and what not

any bottlenecks or sweetspots on her that will open her up lads?

its never been on a dyno. but if i was to guess, probably about 85 ish bhp? would like to get her up to 100 and ill be happy

cheers lads!
Ben

5th October 2014, 16:00

As many will tell you over and over again, you're wasting your time.

Why spend in excess of £500 for 15bhp when you can fit a S lump for about £200 and have 35bhp more?

Many people go on about tuning a 8v engine and never do, as your soon realise, its just not cost effective.

5th October 2014, 16:04

Fit the mani then pair it up with a decent exhaust system.Keep the car serviced properly cos it's no good doing performance mods unless it's serviced regularly.

5th October 2014, 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jigs2895

As many will tell you over and over again, you're wasting your time.

Why spend in excess of £500 for 15bhp when you can fit a S lump for about £200 and have 35bhp more?

Many people go on about tuning a 8v engine and never do, as your soon realise, its just not cost effective.

im doing the work myself, im not going to be spending a lot.

i personally dont like vts engines, dont know why, but i dont, 16v lumps have the power all up top, and thats not where i want it.

i feel im not wasting my time. any engine can be tuned and have good results, you just need to know what your doing.

i may seem a bit blunt/arsey but i am not going to fit a VTS engine. i dont want one. i would rather wipe the flor with someone and have them say "VTS lump?" and i will be more than pleased to say "Nope

" pop the bonnet and they will see i titchy 8v'er, i would rather raise eyebrows than pupils, everyone does the VTS conversion, and its sooo boring, same old same old.

i appreciate where your coming from mate, but VTS i will not, i like to play with what i got, and besides, im not after a tarmac muncher, 100hp and ill be happy.

cheers for the input though!

5th October 2014, 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo67

Fit the mani then pair it up with a decent exhaust system.Keep the car serviced properly cos it's no good doing performance mods unless it's serviced regularly.

i've always used shell helix ultra 5W-40 at 8000mi interverals, with genuine citroen oil filters

valve clearances each month, im quite particular with it.

i will see about getting this mani fitted then, once i get some gaskets, for some reason toyosports didnt give me the gasket to the head, only the lower one

Cheers

5th October 2014, 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mi5terSIR

i would rather wipe the flor with someone and have them say "VTS lump?" and i will be more than pleased to say "Nope

" pop the bonnet and they will see i titchy 8v'er, i would rather raise eyebrows than pupils, everyone does the VTS conversion, and its sooo boring, same old same old.

First off, that would never happen - if you 'wipe the floor' with someone, they aren't going to pull over, compare engines, then suck you off because it's a 1.4.

Secondly, 'everyone' does the VTS conversion because it's a better engine and is cheaper and easier than trying to get the same performance from a 1.4 or 8v.

This topic comes up at least monthly, and I don't think I've ever seen someone go through with it. Prove us wrong

Also,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mi5terSIR

16v lumps have the power all up top, and thats not where i want it.

Get a turbo diesel then!

5th October 2014, 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jizanthapus

First off, that would never happen - if you 'wipe the floor' with someone, they aren't going to pull over, compare engines, then suck you off because it's a 1.4.

Secondly, 'everyone' does the VTS conversion because it's a better engine and is cheaper and easier than trying to get the same performance from a 1.4 or 8v.

This topic comes up at least monthly, and I don't think I've ever seen someone go through with it. Prove us wrong

Also,

Get a turbo diesel then!

jesus, i dont want a gobjob over wat im pulling lol, and ive seen plenty of 8v'ers make dinner of a VTS, and ive had a few ask me what i got, as it is quite quick as it is if i do say so myself, it responded quite well to minor mods.

i dont believe it is a defo better engine, remember it has the same bottom end as the 8v lumps, bar the pistons and floating wrist pins, it may be cheaper, but i really cannot be arsed converting it all for a 16v, a right pain.

i know it comes up often, and people dont follow through with it because they dont have the motivation. ill happily prove you wrong pal!

either way, i will be tuning this engine, and like the germans, i dont do U-turns,

and you know what i mean!:L i dont really like dervs, 8v's are better in the lower rev range, as tuningfork said, driving the car on the road, you dont rev the tits off it, 4k and lower is where you use it, and thats were i want to keep the power really, i want a streetable engine that has a nice bit of power, hence why i didnt go mad with the cam, pt40k has opened up the engine nicely, while keeping it streetable.

mark my words, it will be a reasonably powerfull engine (which anyone can do) BUT having plenty of that power low down too (thats where most crop up) it sounds like having your cake and eating it, but its possible. and that is something a VTS engine cannot do, its all right up the bloody top, and that makes for a really crappy drive imo

5th October 2014, 18:12

& all this is being declared to the insurance company?Well it'll give them something to laugh they're socks off at.Good luck with it & can I have 1st dibs on it when you see sense & break it?

5th October 2014, 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo67

& all this is being declared to the insurance company?Well it'll give them something to laugh they're socks off at.Good luck with it & can I have 1st dibs on it when you see sense & break it?

yup. im not a dick. insurance know.

i can understand criticism, but there is such a thing as too much pal.
i dont appreciate that kind of comments. if i talk to people with respect i expect it back.

nobody gets dibs. mine!

haha

5th October 2014, 19:03

Can't afford to look for a 16v but is willing to spend out on a 1.4..

Righto..

I personally wouldnt waste my time or money. Its doable as with any engine if you pour loads of money it but for what you'll gain, not worth it. Youve not even had it on a RR yet to see what its making.

5th October 2014, 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prickle

Can't afford to look for a 16v but is willing to spend out on a 1.4..

Righto..

I personally wouldnt waste my time or money. Its doable as with any engine if you pour loads of money it but for what you'll gain, not worth it. Youve not even had it on a RR yet to see what its making.

you missed out the fact that they are like hens teeth atm, everyone is buying them. and im also doing the work myself, onwards from here i dont think ill be spending too much, ill have it on a rr soon, and it will cost the same for me to get it on a rr 16v or not.

can everybody stop picking holes. im getting quite fed up of it. i clearly stated i DO NOT WANT a 16v lump. its not going to happen, so if anybody is going to comment, can it not be about the 16v, i wanted insight on the 1.4 8v, not the 16v, if i wanted to know about the 16v i would have specified so, is it so hard to grasp that THIS is the engine i am tuning, and that will not change.

i apologize if i sound annoyed. but i am, i mean, i specified i did not want a 16v engine, and i have my reasons that i spoke about earlier which i find are perfectly reasonable, yeh i could get more power with a 16v, but i dont want more power than 100 or so, i dont want something that will eat decent sports cars, i want something I will be happy with, and ill be happy with 100 or so bhp with a nice flexable powerband.

again, i apologize for my pissyness, but cmon guys, i have said it more than twice now, and nobody seems to be listening, i have took what everybody has said on board and considered it. all i ask is you all respect my decision to keep what i have.

5th October 2014, 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mi5terSIR

yup. im not a dick. insurance know.

i can understand criticism, but there is such a thing as too much pal.
i dont appreciate that kind of comments. if i talk to people with respect i expect it back.

nobody gets dibs. mine!

haha

Just to set the record straight,at no point have I been abusive just tried to offer constructive advice as others have but it's fallen on deaf ears.As you have so much experience of tuning i'm surprised you even come on here for advice.Look up the word LOGIC.

5th October 2014, 20:13

Well if you have a hi-lift can then surely a vernier pulley would be a good start.if its a mild can fitting heavy valve springs will lose power.you not thought of fitting bike carbs?.mate had an 8v 1400 Vauxhall with bike carbs and was producing 150bhp at fly with mild cam.lighten the flywheel, no power gain but will pick its feet up better in the first 3 gears.

6th October 2014, 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo67

Just to set the record straight,at no point have I been abusive just tried to offer constructive advice as others have but it's fallen on deaf ears.As you have so much experience of tuning i'm surprised you even come on here for advice.Look up the word LOGIC.

i never said you was abusive, but cmon, you took the piss a bit, im not stupid mate...you try telling me that there was nothing snarky about what you said.

never said i had masses if experience. never said i was god almighty, hence why i asked for insight from some other people who probably know a lot more about these engines than i do, i understand i have a lot to learn, but everybody does, i never claimed to be something im not, and i wont start with that today.

i asked for something very simple, some insight as to what more i could do to the engine. it did not fall of deaf ears, as i said, i considered the 16v conversion, i have done for a while now and have been discussing for a bit, but i have decided it would not achieve what i want, i've had a few goes of some VTS's, i have a good few mates with VTS's, and they were kind enough to let me have a go, and from that, i made my mind up of what i wanted. a 16v is more of a higher revving engine that has its power up the higher revs. and that i not what i want, i want a nice bit of power, which also has a bit of low down power too, and im not asking too much of it, its been done before, with these engines and other engines of the 8v format.

i dont see why its so difficult for you to grasp that i do not want the 16v engine, i have stated what im trying to achieve, and what i have will be a better base for that.

i have tried my best to be respectful of you opinion, but you have been a bit ignorant about it, and just pushed on with the 16v thing, completely ignoring what i was saying.

again, i apologize for being like this, but at the end of the day, its not just me who would be a bit iffy by now.

all i asked for was for some insight on this engine, my original post even stated that i wont be doing a 16v conversion, am i missing something here?

i understand that yes, i will have more power if i went 16v, but im not chasing hp numbers here, im trying to achieve something else.

just sweep it under the carpet and continue on with where we were. ill be mature about it if you will too.

6th October 2014, 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlie2

Well if you have a hi-lift can then surely a vernier pulley would be a good start.if its a mild can fitting heavy valve springs will lose power.you not thought of fitting bike carbs?.mate had an 8v 1400 Vauxhall with bike carbs and was producing 150bhp at fly with mild cam.lighten the flywheel, no power gain but will pick its feet up better in the first 3 gears.

aha. didnt think of a vernier! i will bear that in mind, cheers

i have heard that the valvesprings on the silvertop were a bit soft, and thats why i was considering stronger springs to keep valve float at bay, although im not really sure when that becomes a problem, as it having a lumpier cam, the rev limit will probably have to go up a little to make the most of it at full chat, although im not really sure when it starts to tail off the power really, kent say the powerband is up to 6500, and iirc, this has a limit of 6250 or something of that nature, and i wanted to be 100% sure, but i will bear that in mind, i can see how stronger springs would lose me a bit, parasitic drag is the only way i can think of describing it.

the bike carbs i could try! but i would like to go individual throttle bodies seeming as i have a piggyback which i could probably make play ball with them, and i suppose i would keep some driveability with them, which from what i understand bike carbs are a bit of a pig to set up right, and dont really like elevation changes or drastic changes in weather, with the fuel injection being more adaptable from what i understand, but please do prove me wrong if i got anything wrong

cheers!

6th October 2014, 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlie2

Well if you have a hi-lift can then surely a vernier pulley would be a good start.if its a mild can fitting heavy valve springs will lose power.you not thought of fitting bike carbs?.mate had an 8v 1400 Vauxhall with bike carbs and was producing 150bhp at fly with mild cam.lighten the flywheel, no power gain but will pick its feet up better in the first 3 gears.

i only just noticed, 150 at the fly from a 1.4? bloody hell, that must have been a very well sorted engine. fair play to him!

6th October 2014, 10:00

Boost??
NOS?
JATO?

6th October 2014, 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quick

Boost??
NOS?
JATO?

I think these are the best options,certainly cost wise.

6th October 2014, 10:58

if you are aiming for 100 bhp then fit an xsi or rallye head with its associated ECU, loom and inlet with wiring mods to splice it into your cars body loom.
Would save yourself a heap of a money time and effort as to me it seems pointless to be modifying all and sundry with your current engine and head when there are oem parts available that do the job better and cheaper and are a better base to start the modifying from plus rallye heads generally fetch decent money when rebuilt properly so you wont really lose anything if you break it for parts

6th October 2014, 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mi5terSIR

i only just noticed, 150 at the fly from a 1.4? bloody hell, that must have been a very well sorted engine. fair play to him!

It had piper 285 cam vernier pulley,stainless valves,head ported by me,compression raised to 10.5:1,std bottom end,std ignition,4 branch into an Ashley system.ran faultlessly and won many class stage rallys.ran mint any weather with bike carbs and gave great torque.setup by bogg bros.sounds like dyno time would be best but costly.power doesn't come cheap.

6th October 2014, 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandi699

if you are aiming for 100 bhp then fit an xsi or rallye head with its associated ECU, loom and inlet with wiring mods to splice it into your cars body loom.
Would save yourself a heap of a money time and effort as to me it seems pointless to be modifying all and sundry with your current engine and head when there are oem parts available that do the job better and cheaper and are a better base to start the modifying from plus rallye heads generally fetch decent money when rebuilt properly so you wont really lose anything if you break it for parts

This

Just fitting stiffer valves will loose you power. You get more parasitic losses with no gains if the camshafts do not require them and you are getting no valve bounce. With the Rallye head you can fit far better camshaft profiles as the head and inlet manifold flow better as well as using thicker camshafts to cope with high revs.

The standard 8v manifolds are not the best flowing. A VTR can gain 12-14bhp from a manifold and exhaust swap.

I know you are saying 8v only but VTS's are at rock bottom prices. You can buy a whole car for half the price of the modifications mentioned above. You even get a better gearbox thrown in the deal.

Last time I looked even 106 Rallyes were going for just under £2k and standard those are punting out 105bhp

As this car is for road use, then chasing big bhp from a small engine size will be a money pit unless you are prepared to boost. If you want to keep the 1.4 then boost is going to be your only option for a decent 120bhp+ with everyday drivability.

6th October 2014, 16:08

Personally, I think you're mad. Technically, the 16v makes its power higher up the rev range but in the real world it doesn't exactly make driving it difficult. A 16v with some breathing mods still has some nice pull from low down. They are nicer to drive in every way in my opinion.

If you are set on staying 8v and want around 100bhp for a moderate to low budget, why not just fit a VTR engine?

You'll be polishing a turd throwing money at the 1.4. You'll never have the torque or power that the 1600 can produce without throwing thousands at it. I have no doubt you can make one hell of an engine from the 1.4 8v but it means big budgets, forged internals, well thought out cam, proper headwork, itb's, good ecu and mapping etc.

You'll get a VTR engine very cheap on ebay, filter, exhaust and manifold and you'll be over 100bhp and it'll drive quite nicely.
Still not as nice as a 16v mind...

6th October 2014, 18:48

cheers for the advice lads, ill have a look at getting a rallye head of sorts, im pretty sure the cam i got now wont fit in the rallye head so ill just sell it to pay for the head, i agree with the valvesprings part, im just not really sure if valve bounce/float is coming a bit close with what i got.

nos would be a bit bonkers lol, i would be a bit of a partypiece admittedly, but that is some big money, 800 or so quid for a well set up kit, and nos is something i wouldnt be cutting corners with.

turbo i thought about, but if im honest im not really sure what it will handle boost-wise, and would be a bit blind, unless someone has stuck a turbo on an 8v'er and has experienced it, would love to hear about that.

cheers for all the advice lads!

6th October 2014, 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrighty89

Personally, I think you're mad. Technically, the 16v makes its power higher up the rev range but in the real world it doesn't exactly make driving it difficult. A 16v with some breathing mods still has some nice pull from low down. They are nicer to drive in every way in my opinion.

If you are set on staying 8v and want around 100bhp for a moderate to low budget, why not just fit a VTR engine?

You'll be polishing a turd throwing money at the 1.4. You'll never have the torque or power that the 1600 can produce without throwing thousands at it. I have no doubt you can make one hell of an engine from the 1.4 8v but it means big budgets, forged internals, well thought out cam, proper headwork, itb's, good ecu and mapping etc.

You'll get a VTR engine very cheap on ebay, filter, exhaust and manifold and you'll be over 100bhp and it'll drive quite nicely.
Still not as nice as a 16v mind...

well. yes, i did say i was a bit pissed...

yeah im not saying its a really horrid powerband, but naturally, as most 16v's are, the breathing happens more up top, and it does tend to suffer, even if it is a little bit, in the lower rpm range, and i find that the 8v'ers are more happy to pull from there, i have found that with a lot of engines, probably to do with port velocity and whatnot at certain rpm ranges, i got a rough idea, but im not entirely all that well versed.

i agree it dont make it a crap drive, a VTS is fun enough, but i do prefer to have more lower down power, and the 8v heads are just better suited for that.

yes i do agree with the vtr engine part, but i like the built not bought thing i have had going on for a while now with it, yeah i will probably sink a fair old few quid into it, but im happy enough with that, because at least i know I made it get to around 100hp. i understand i may not have the torque that a vtr has at the end of it all, but im happy enough to know that its going to be a fair bit more powerfull than when i started with it, and thats fine for me, im not just spending money to make it faster, im doing it because i want to modify my car, i want to be able to work towards a goal, i could just stick a vtr engine and be done with it, but imo, where is the fun in that? if i have worked for it, i will be much more satisfied with the end result. it will have been something i done, a sense of achievement i feel is important when modifying a car.

i know its a bit long-winded, but thats how it is. i suppose i can only explain it as "i want to make it mine"

im not saying the 16v is shit, because its not, it is a good engine, but ive never really been fussed on it too much, and plus it wouldnt really achieve what im after.

if i did a swap like that, i probably would go balls out and get an XU10 or something anyway.

7th October 2014, 09:17

speak to blackie about turbocharging an 8v, his was quite a popular car on here.
turboing will probably be a little bit less money than the mods required to make big power on a N/A 8v but the gains will be vastly more

7th October 2014, 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mi5terSIR

well. yes, i did say i was a bit pissed...

yeah im not saying its a really horrid powerband, but naturally, as most 16v's are, the breathing happens more up top, and it does tend to suffer, even if it is a little bit, in the lower rpm range, and i find that the 8v'ers are more happy to pull from there, i have found that with a lot of engines, probably to do with port velocity and whatnot at certain rpm ranges, i got a rough idea, but im not entirely all that well versed.

i agree it dont make it a crap drive, a VTS is fun enough, but i do prefer to have more lower down power, and the 8v heads are just better suited for that.

yes i do agree with the vtr engine part, but i like the built not bought thing i have had going on for a while now with it, yeah i will probably sink a fair old few quid into it, but im happy enough with that, because at least i know I made it get to around 100hp. i understand i may not have the torque that a vtr has at the end of it all, but im happy enough to know that its going to be a fair bit more powerfull than when i started with it, and thats fine for me, im not just spending money to make it faster, im doing it because i want to modify my car, i want to be able to work towards a goal, i could just stick a vtr engine and be done with it, but imo, where is the fun in that? if i have worked for it, i will be much more satisfied with the end result. it will have been something i done, a sense of achievement i feel is important when modifying a car.

i know its a bit long-winded, but thats how it is. i suppose i can only explain it as "i want to make it mine"

im not saying the 16v is shit, because its not, it is a good engine, but ive never really been fussed on it too much, and plus it wouldnt really achieve what im after.

if i did a swap like that, i probably would go balls out and get an XU10 or something anyway.

That's fair enough, I do like the idea of having a built engine as apposed to dropping in the next best standard engine. But I just think the 1.4 is going to be a stumbling block.

All up to you at the end of the day but if I was in your position I would maybe go down the route of buying an engine, build it up over time and then drop it in.

There are some very cool 8v's about. The S2 rallye engine with the right cam and some itb's from Sandy Brown can make upwards of 150bhp and rev to over 8k.

7th October 2014, 09:45

theres a guy on here who had a standard s2 rallye 1600 bottom end, ported head with a decent cam, bodies, management and I think it made about 160-165~ bhp. It can be done but its expensive and I'd wager with that engine it may not be so good in the lower revs any more, or as good as you may want it to be but then thats up to the engine builder and mapper to spec the engine to make the power where you want it to be

7th October 2014, 15:39

the 8v vs 16v power is generally a myth thats been going 30 years from the early hot hatches. This is due to the 16v's coming on cam and significantly breathing better at high revs rather than being slower low down. If you overlay the power graphs the 16v has more power and torque throughout the rev range. Other than weight theres no real disadvantage to 16v!

13th October 2014, 03:49

I have a vtr with 53k genuine miles on clock, ad rather have a clean and serviced engine than tune it who cares about power ad rather people see me drive past doing 20 with my sub thumping the shit out of the boot than rape it up and down a motor way

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk obisho

13th October 2014, 07:43

kind of forgot about this thread, thanks for all the advice guys, its given me a fair bit of reading to do!

i have been thinking of going turbo for a while, but the wiring in the standalone keeps kicking me back, especially the fuel injection double relay, im not an electrician at all. really i want a second engine loom by the looks of it. or at least be able to work it out and use my loom, i will admit i have never gone this deep into engine management before, and the main bit really is just working out the fuel pump and that wanky relay.

i have a KKK K24 i was thinking of using, i had it cheap and rebuilt it, but now i think of it, its going to be too big for it, it wont spool for shit. i dont think at least.

but the turbo idea has been swimming for a while, if any of you guys are any good at standalone's and have a few spare mins of typing ill happily soak a bit up

majority of the mapping will probably be done by me, nowi know it dont sound good seeming as i cant even wire the bastard thing, but i have done some road mapping for a few mates to get them up to a dyno, and i always ask them to get the mapper to give me some feedback on what the base road map was like, and i haven't had terrible replies, the gti road map i done was "reasonable" on tony's words, so i feel i could sort something out, it may take me a long time, (like, 6 months more than likely) but i do plan on trying to get it at least "close" on my own, mapping is a lot of money, dont get me wrong, it is for a reason, but if its a cost i can avoid i will. im willing to lose a few horses to home mapping.

i agree with the 16v vs 8v thing, it has been going on for years, but for a reason so i believe, they both have their own characteristics which make them create a different powerband, yup the 16v has more power across a wider range, but the engine was developed a lot more than stuff like the tu5 and tu3's (bar a few saucy tu3's and the tu24 is it?) it was made from sqaure one to be a more performance orientated engine, more than can be said for the rest, its been pointed out a few times that the VTR engine is held back on purpose, theres a narrowing in the exhaust or something, the 1.4's have the inlet pipe that goes to the airbox that has a really nasty restriction, and if they have done that to start with, there is bound to be more points where they cut things down (lift, duration, valve sizes all that) to make it more of a point to buy the VTS.

i honestly think if you had 2 exact bottom ends and 1 8v and 1 16v head, they would point out what i have been saying, but the problem lies wherein is that we cant really compare an 8v and 16v head and say that they are on par flow wise for those number of valves and the sizes to be able to make it a fair test.

i would love to be able to test this theory grab a few heads, blocks and other bits and go to town, but funds say otherwise right now.

but i have always had it that the general conseous was that 16v heads flowed more higher up the revs, 8v lower down, i may also point out the 200cc difference, makes it very difficult to compare.

thanks guys!

13th October 2014, 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandi699

theres a guy on here who had a standard s2 rallye 1600 bottom end, ported head with a decent cam, bodies, management and I think it made about 160-165~ bhp. It can be done but its expensive and I'd wager with that engine it may not be so good in the lower revs any more, or as good as you may want it to be but then thats up to the engine builder and mapper to spec the engine to make the power where you want it to be

i can see how it would be a bit dead below 3k, thats quite a lumpy spec and its built for all out balls, and me point is ill happily drop 50-60 peak to gain a nice lump of low end power, thats what will make it behave more, for the lack of a better word, on the road, and in theory...shouldn't eat as much fuel

13th October 2014, 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

the 8v vs 16v power is generally a myth thats been going 30 years from the early hot hatches. This is due to the 16v's coming on cam and significantly breathing better at high revs rather than being slower low down. If you overlay the power graphs the 16v has more power and torque throughout the rev range. Other than weight theres no real disadvantage to 16v!

almost forgot.

weight is a big sway for me, i will be doing some form of handling mods at some point, a nice set of well sorted shocks and springs, or maybe vts shocks with some decent springs, wider wheels and tyres, polybushes i might, i have been reading a fair bit of mixed reviews....might try them on the rear axle only and go from there...or just one the front arms, and it currently being an alloy block, that favours the handling very much, i can pretty easily (most reasonable build blokes could tbh, im quite scrawny lol) carry the block, head, and both mani's they are very light engines, i was very surprised the first time i lifted it, thats what sold me on keeping it really, it would be better if it was canted backwards like the XU engines to rear the weight a little bit.

overall, the car will be built 100% for feel, i dont care who is faster, as long as im happy with how it feels why i decide it's high time she had a hiding, i really dont mind, im just after that little grin you cant help but make when you throw it round a corner and it just settles and grips.

im pretty sure a lot of you will agree with me when i say there is nothing like it.

hence why we love our frenchy rot-boxes

lol

13th October 2014, 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mi5terSIR

almost forgot.

weight is a big sway for me, i will be doing some form of handling mods at some point, a nice set of well sorted shocks and springs, or maybe vts shocks with some decent springs, wider wheels and tyres, polybushes i might, i have been reading a fair bit of mixed reviews....might try them on the rear axle only and go from there...or just one the front arms, and it currently being an alloy block, that favours the handling very much, i can pretty easily (most reasonable build blokes could tbh, im quite scrawny lol) carry the block, head, and both mani's they are very light engines, i was very surprised the first time i lifted it, thats what sold me on keeping it really, it would be better if it was canted backwards like the XU engines to rear the weight a little bit.

overall, the car will be built 100% for feel, i dont care who is faster, as long as im happy with how it feels why i decide it's high time she had a hiding, i really dont mind, im just after that little grin you cant help but make when you throw it round a corner and it just settles and grips.

im pretty sure a lot of you will agree with me when i say there is nothing like it.

hence why we love our frenchy rot-boxes

lol

13th October 2014, 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mi5terSIR

almost forgot.

weight is a big sway for me, i will be doing some form of handling mods at some point, a nice set of well sorted shocks and springs, or maybe vts shocks with some decent springs, wider wheels and tyres, polybushes i might, i have been reading a fair bit of mixed reviews....might try them on the rear axle only and go from there...or just one the front arms, and it currently being an alloy block, that favours the handling very much, i can pretty easily (most reasonable build blokes could tbh, im quite scrawny lol) carry the block, head, and both mani's they are very light engines, i was very surprised the first time i lifted it, thats what sold me on keeping it really, it would be better if it was canted backwards like the XU engines to rear the weight a little bit.

overall, the car will be built 100% for feel, i dont care who is faster, as long as im happy with how it feels why i decide it's high time she had a hiding, i really dont mind, im just after that little grin you cant help but make when you throw it round a corner and it just settles and grips.

im pretty sure a lot of you will agree with me when i say there is nothing like it.

hence why we love our frenchy rot-boxes

lol

The point people are making is that it simply is not worth your time or money to tune the 1.4 lump. The only plausible reason for doing so I can come up with is meet regulations for a particular racing series, but even then an S1 rallye engine would be a better starting point anyway, and it isn't the reason you're doing it.

If you're absolutely heart set on an 8v, simply get a VTR lump, they're pennies and you have your 100bhp out of the box easily enough, with scope for some more power through exactly the same sort of mods you're considering for the 1.4, with a better starting point. I'm not being rude, but there is little point dressing it up, you won't get masses of advice because it's fairly simple to establish why it's not worth pursuing, hence people haven't. Different isn't always better.

If you're all about 'feel' then stick a healthy sorted 1600 8v in it, and spend your money on worthwhile suspension, chassis mods, tyres and brakes, then spend whatever you have left on seat time, you're the single biggest difference to the cars performance you'll make.

As others have stated, with basic exhaust mods, you should be able to see 100-110 from a VTR lump easily and reliably, it's visually no different, the weight will be negligible if there is any difference at all, there's just literally no point at all in bothering with the 1400. Even with 100bhp VTR lump in it, unless the car is absolutely featherweight and perfectly sorted in every other sense you're highly unlikely to be wiping the floor with anything.

Given they're so similar and in your own words, you're after a "reasonably powerful engine BUT having plenty of that low down too", I can't understand why you wouldn't start with the 1600 as a base over the 1400.

13th October 2014, 17:11

VTR engine with a lightweight battery to counter the weight difference.

13th October 2014, 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by D4MJT

The point people are making is that it simply is not worth your time or money to tune the 1.4 lump. The only plausible reason for doing so I can come up with is meet regulations for a particular racing series, but even then an S1 rallye engine would be a better starting point anyway, and it isn't the reason you're doing it.

If you're absolutely heart set on an 8v, simply get a VTR lump, they're pennies and you have your 100bhp out of the box easily enough, with scope for some more power through exactly the same sort of mods you're considering for the 1.4, with a better starting point. I'm not being rude, but there is little point dressing it up, you won't get masses of advice because it's fairly simple to establish why it's not worth pursuing, hence people haven't. Different isn't always better.

If you're all about 'feel' then stick a healthy sorted 1600 8v in it, and spend your money on worthwhile suspension, chassis mods, tyres and brakes, then spend whatever you have left on seat time, you're the single biggest difference to the cars performance you'll make.

As others have stated, with basic exhaust mods, you should be able to see 100-110 from a VTR lump easily and reliably, it's visually no different, the weight will be negligible if there is any difference at all, there's just literally no point at all in bothering with the 1400. Even with 100bhp VTR lump in it, unless the car is absolutely featherweight and perfectly sorted in every other sense you're highly unlikely to be wiping the floor with anything.

Given they're so similar and in your own words, you're after a "reasonably powerful engine BUT having plenty of that low down too", I can't understand why you wouldn't start with the 1600 as a base over the 1400.

yeah if im honest, ive spent so much time researching and googling, many nights i have been up late beavering away pulling every bit of info i can about the 8v engines, i would like to think that i have gained a fair bit of knowledge about them, i would really hate to waste it all.

i would have to just slightly dissagree with the weight bit, i have felt the weight of both, and its quite a difference, so i have come to an idea...i will understand if you roll your eyes because a million people have said it before, but.....alloy 1600? rods from here, pistons from there liners from that and a crank from this...possible? i see these psa engine's are like lego, bits seem very swappable...

i guess the main reason i havent gone to a bigger lump is because i pretty much can't be arsed, i dont have acess to an engine crane, and although i have plenty of seatbelts, a few lads and a big pole and probably could do it before the sun went down, but i just simply can't be bothered, and if i screw something, im pretty stuck.

its become quite the problem tuning a daily driver. never thought it would, but not having a second car (i do, citroen xsara, no engine though, the alloy 1.4 was in that, cracking car btw....) means i dont really have something to fall back on, that among a few other little things keeps me from a swap.

in all i see your point mate, but it just boils down to a bit of "CBA" and not having a fallback.

different is not always better i fully agree, and i probably would be rather happy with a vtr lump, but im also happy with whats in there, and if i can improve on it without tearing the engine out, ill be more than happy, and ive also spent a lot in maintaining it too, new rings, headgasket, clutch, TUD3 liners (bet you didnt know they fit, i sure as hell didnt! they are a fair bit thicker than the TU3 liners, turbo build prep) i have xsi pistons waiting with a set of tidy rods, i suppose i jumped in head first without thinking really, and just bought a lot of bits, so in a way, i have kind of put myself into a corner about which engine im going with without me realizing really...

i admit i may seem stubborn, and i am in a small way, but i have kind of put myself in this corner, so i might as well stay there, at least that is what i have been telling myself.

Cheers

13th October 2014, 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

VTR engine with a lightweight battery to counter the weight difference.

would such a battery actually counter the difference? i mean, the vtr lump is a fair chunk heavier, and im just a little curious to how light this battery is you speak of! lol

cheers though ill consider that

13th October 2014, 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jizanthapus

ahh. i see we have one of those in today.

13th October 2014, 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mi5terSIR

yeah if im honest, ive spent so much time researching and googling, many nights i have been up late beavering away pulling every bit of info i can about the 8v engines, i would like to think that i have gained a fair bit of knowledge about them, i would really hate to waste it all.

i would have to just slightly dissagree with the weight bit, i have felt the weight of both, and its quite a difference, so i have come to an idea...i will understand if you roll your eyes because a million people have said it before, but.....alloy 1600? rods from here, pistons from there liners from that and a crank from this...possible? i see these psa engine's are like lego, bits seem very swappable...

i guess the main reason i havent gone to a bigger lump is because i pretty much can't be arsed, i dont have acess to an engine crane, and although i have plenty of seatbelts, a few lads and a big pole and probably could do it before the sun went down, but i just simply can't be bothered, and if i screw something, im pretty stuck.

its become quite the problem tuning a daily driver. never thought it would, but not having a second car (i do, citroen xsara, no engine though, the alloy 1.4 was in that, cracking car btw....) means i dont really have something to fall back on, that among a few other little things keeps me from a swap.

in all i see your point mate, but it just boils down to a bit of "CBA" and not having a fallback.

different is not always better i fully agree, and i probably would be rather happy with a vtr lump, but im also happy with whats in there, and if i can improve on it without tearing the engine out, ill be more than happy, and ive also spent a lot in maintaining it too, new rings, headgasket, clutch, TUD3 liners (bet you didnt know they fit, i sure as hell didnt! they are a fair bit thicker than the TU3 liners, turbo build prep) i have xsi pistons waiting with a set of tidy rods, i suppose i jumped in head first without thinking really, and just bought a lot of bits, so in a way, i have kind of put myself into a corner about which engine im going with without me realizing really...

i admit i may seem stubborn, and i am in a small way, but i have kind of put myself in this corner, so i might as well stay there, at least that is what i have been telling myself.

Cheers

You make no sense to me.

13th October 2014, 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jizanthapus

You make no sense to me.

suppose i can see why, i can be arsed to learn. thats something different, you can never know enough, im one of those who prefers to learn a lot more mentally before getting the spanners out, to the point of OCD at times.

i cant be arsed to pull the engine out and swap it, messing around with looms and mounts and all that nonsense, and i haven't really done a swap before, so its not something i want to be taking a learning curve on my only car.

13th October 2014, 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jizanthapus

You make no sense to me.

Echod Echod Echod Echod Echod Echod Echod

13th October 2014, 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prickle

Echo'd Echo'd Echo'd Echo'd Echo'd Echo'd Echo'd

You make no sense to me, Prickle......how do you keep your car so damn clean?

13th October 2014, 19:11

I drive it in cling film.

Nah i just keep ontop of it. Washed fortnightly, engine bay/interior too.

13th October 2014, 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prickle

I drive it in cling film.

Nah i just keep ontop of it. Washed fortnightly, engine bay/interior too.

christ. now you mention it, a good month has passed since i got the bucket and sponge out.....

13th October 2014, 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prickle

I drive it in cling film.

Nah i just keep ontop of it. Washed fortnightly, engine bay/interior too.

Does look good like! Pointless doing mine, the drive's a right state so it'd be back to how it was if I left the house