16v not starting

30th October 2014, 11:58

Another thread on this as I've searched and read a few but I'm not going to bump an old one.

So dropped the engine in and everything's hooked up, when I crank it I'm not getting a spark.

Fuel is getting to the rail and injectors ok

Immobiliser is not causing any problems as far as I can tell. I took the barrel, immobiliser, ECU etc from the donor car so it's all matching.

The only things I can think of are the crack sensor, dead coil pack or earths.

For the earths I have the two coming off the battery, one going to the chassis and the other going to the back of the gearbox. The Earth from the loom is attached to the top of the box.

I've read that some have ran two earths to the chassis and had success, anyone comment on this?

I'll replace the crank sensor along with cool pack to be sure, but does anyone have ideas what else I should look at?

30th October 2014, 13:47

try the crank sensor first. I had this and the plug was very grimy inside so thus not making contact

30th October 2014, 14:12

are you getting 12v to the coilpack?

30th October 2014, 17:09

To be fair I think the crank sensor will need swapped at the very least cleaned as the engine had a massive oil leak before I done the top end.

Ross, sorry electrics are not my strong point. How would I measure this with the multi meter? As in what wires do I probe?

31st October 2014, 01:01

Take the plug off, ground the black probe of your meter and check the the wires with your ignition on and the red probe of the meter.

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31st October 2014, 20:59

Correct?

31st October 2014, 21:39

Give the wires a wiggle on the ones going to the crank sensor,sometimes you get a break in the wires.

31st October 2014, 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo67

Give the wires a wiggle on the ones going to the crank sensor,sometimes you get a break in the wires.

Sorry stevo thought I'd typed fuel correct as in the correct way around on the rail.

1st November 2014, 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandi699

Take the plug off, ground the black probe of your meter and check the the wires with your ignition on and the red probe of the meter.

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So I've just been out with the multi meter, started by checking the battery and getting good results so not the battery.

Checked the coil pack plug, grounded the probe and I'm only getting 0.07 volts. So obvious problem there. As I'm shit with electrics where to now?

Pick of the dash lights so no immobiliser problems.

1st November 2014, 16:29

Strip down the coilpack wire and check for any breaks, it's likely a wire is broken whilst the engine and loom has all been moved around.

1st November 2014, 16:44

As I proble the plug there's four connectors, which one or ones should I get 12v from?

2nd November 2014, 15:26

Ok, I tried a known working unlocked ECU and still exactly the same. I've checked the earths and they all seem ok.

Earths are correct at battery to gearbox, battery to chassis and loom to gearbox?

Got a new coil pack coming tomorrow so I'll try that as soon as it turns up. If I get no joy with that I'll replace the crank sensor.

Can someone confirm I have the fuel and return the correct way around as pictured earlier in the thread?

2nd November 2014, 15:34

To add when I do crank it over it sounds like it's going to go, a cough and a splutter and nothing.

8th November 2014, 12:59

So I've just put a new coil pack and crank sensor on and still she refuses to start, actually sounds like she's going to go but nothing.

Tried a known working unlocked ECU and it's the same so I know it's not that, also used different battery.

Really starting to piss me off but I'll persevere.

Quick vid of what's happening

http://youtu.be/_tLT0sF8jzA

Any suggestions?

8th November 2014, 13:04

Mine sounded similar about year/half back. Randomly the car just stopped running. After tearing my hair out it ended up being 1 injector and fuel pump. It was turning over slightly, just like yours but it wouldnt run. Once i changed the injectors and got the codes cleared up off the ECU it fired straight up.

Just to check, does the above work fine?

8th November 2014, 13:16

I've just had the fuel line off the injector rail and when I turned the ignition on I filled a bottle pretty quick so I know the pump is working fine.

I was going to check for and clear and codes but the piece of shit reader I got lights up when you plug it in but no start up menu so I guess that's fucked. Have to source another from some where, wouldn't care but Muz offered me his when I was at his during the week and I said is alright I have one. Sod's law!!

As said I'll get another reader from someone and have a check, then injectors will be my next port of call.

8th November 2014, 13:44

Just had a think and poured some fuel into the bores, tried firing it up and it went for that fraction of a second. So my conclusion is I've got dead injectors, so I'll need to find some and touch wood.

Obviously will tae the fuel line out tomorrow and see which are at fault.

8th November 2014, 16:46

Pull the Rail and see if they quite into a box or some cardboard on cranking. I had the same problem, one dead injector and it wouldn't start even though it should have ran on 3 but ran on easy start. Swapped it for a known good one and fired up first go

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8th November 2014, 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandi699

Pull the Rail and see if they quite into a box or some cardboard on cranking. I had the same problem, one dead injector and it wouldn't start even though it should have ran on 3 but ran on easy start. Swapped it for a known good one and fired up first go

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That's what I'm hoping there's a injector cleaning place near me so I'll test them tomorrow and get them up to have the ultra sonic jazz done.

15th November 2014, 11:30

Ok, had the injectors done and still exactly the same. Proper pissed off now, I'm back to the no spark theory.

I was sure it was trying to go when I dropped fuel in the bores, but now I'm thinking that it could have just been the fuel compressing before it was dumped out the manifold.

Can someone run me through testing the plugs when they're out.

Also should probably get a code reader on it to clear any codes.

15th November 2014, 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickswan

Ok, had the injectors done and still exactly the same. Proper pissed off now, I'm back to the no spark theory.

I was sure it was trying to go when I dropped fuel in the bores, but now I'm thinking that it could have just been the fuel compressing before it was dumped out the manifold.

Can someone run me through testing the plugs when they're out.

Also should probably get a code reader on it to clear any codes.

Mick, drop me a message on facey. There's a number of common things this could be, I have a known good runner here, if you're about later I could mince down with a working ecu, cool pack, crank sensor etc and we can try them out. Save you fucking around replacing everything.

15th November 2014, 16:41

What about the relay under the ecu?

15th November 2014, 16:51

Whack the cut off switch a couple of times?

Have you checked all earths are connected and clean?

15th November 2014, 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prickle

What about the relay under the ecu?

Worth a shout

Everything else seems good. I Gave the earths a good clean today, it's either no or weak spark. Just had the injectors done and checked them and they're spot on.

I'll see when Matts here but codes will be cleared, retry with his unlocked ECU crank and a few other sensors.

Pissing me off.

15th November 2014, 19:11

Thanks to D4MJT for letting me know exactly what's up with the engine, bad news but not too bad. Timing out 180 degrees

Shouldn't take too long to sort out.

16th November 2014, 10:09

Right lads, bit of help again but not too bad really.

When the engine is set at TDC basically the Pistons in 1 & 4 are at the top of the block, yes?

What I need to know is then I set the cams (as I'm 180 degrees out) with locking pins in the pulleys are the inlet or exhaust valves open?.

16th November 2014, 19:43

With no cam sensor I don't think 180 degrees out is any problem?
If you turn the crank another revolution, owing to the gearing of the timing gears and belt the timing will then be correct if it was exactly 180 degrees out

16th November 2014, 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beaniemoo

With no cam sensor I don't think 180 degrees out is any problem?
If you turn the crank another revolution, owing to the gearing of the timing gears and belt the timing will then be correct if it was exactly 180 degrees out

To clarify Beanie, you'd need to remove the cams to do this correct?

If you just locked the cams and then popped the belt
Off and spun the crank a revolution, you'd bend valves yes?

16th November 2014, 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by D4MJT

To clarify Beanie, you'd need to remove the cams to do this correct?

If you just locked the cams and then popped the belt
Off and spun the crank a revolution, you'd bend valves yes?

I think the cams out rotate once and I should be good. As said in another post I'm sure it's sparking when it's blowing and exhaust valves are open.

16th November 2014, 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickswan

I think the cams out rotate once and I should be good. As said in another post I'm sure it's sparking when it's blowing and exhaust valves are open.

That's what I'm thinking too Mick.

16th November 2014, 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by D4MJT

That's what I'm thinking too Mick.

Not too bad, stripped everything ready todo it today. Shouldn't be too bad.

16th November 2014, 20:44

If you check the timing and with the crank at tdc, the cam timing is 180' out, just continue turning the engine over as it is and the next time the crank is at tdc, the cams will be correct.
You can't get the timing 180' out? The cams are geared to turn at half the speed of the crank so every other revolution of the crank the timing will be 180' out. With no crank sensor and batch fuel and spark it doesn't matter.

16th November 2014, 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beaniemoo

If you check the timing and with the crank at tdc, the cam timing is 180' out, just continue turning the engine over as it is and the next time the crank is at tdc, the cams will be correct.
You can't get the timing 180' out? The cams are geared to turn at half the speed of the crank so every other revolution of the crank the timing will be 180' out. With no crank sensor and batch fuel and spark it doesn't matter.

This is in the relm of things I'm not sure about so forgive my ignorance. I kind of follow what your saying about not being 180 out and I get the whole ratio of crank to cam.

I'm sure its sparking at the wrong time in the cycle, hence why I'm saying 180 out. It's like its sparking when it's on the exhaust up stroke. It wants to go, I'm assuming it's burning what tiny bit of fuel is left.

16th November 2014, 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickswan

This is in the relm of things I'm not sure about so forgive my ignorance. I kind of follow what your saying about not being 180 out and I get the whole ratio of crank to cam.

I'm sure its sparking at the wrong time in the cycle, hence why I'm saying 180 out. It's like its sparking when it's on the exhaust up stroke. It wants to go, I'm assuming it's burning what tiny bit of fuel is left.

Of course you'll get a spark on the exhaust stroke, but you'll get one on the "opposite" compression stroke as well.

It's wasted spark ignition... it only has two coils.

just throwing that in there for you.

17th November 2014, 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinObviously

Of course you'll get a spark on the exhaust stroke, but you'll get one on the "opposite" compression stroke as well.

It's wasted spark ignition... it only has two coils.

just throwing that in there for you.

Ah now that changed my dilemma entirely.

So, I'm back to having a nightmare as to why it's not starting. Has fuel, has air and has a spark.

17th November 2014, 07:32

Checked it for compression? Worth a shot?

17th November 2014, 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali123

Checked it for compression? Worth a shot?

Could be worth a try, but it "sounds" like it has compression. Also cranks much faster without the plugs in

17th November 2014, 07:50

I've just had a more thorough look through your thread. It sounds very much like a fuel supply issue.
The fact it tries to start initially, but then just cranks after, also the fact that you said it started briefly when you poured fuel down the bores.
If you take the fuel pipes off, turn the ignition on, do you get a good strong burst of fuel out of one of the pipes?
If so which pipe do you get the fuel out of?
I'll check you've got the fuel pipes on the right way round tonight when I get to the workshop where I think I have a fuel rail laying around.
How far from Milton Keynes are you?

17th November 2014, 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beaniemoo

I've just had a more thorough look through your thread. It sounds very much like a fuel supply issue.
The fact it tries to start initially, but then just cranks after, also the fact that you said it started briefly when you poured fuel down the bores.
If you take the fuel pipes off, turn the ignition on, do you get a good strong burst of fuel out of one of the pipes?
If so which pipe do you get the fuel out of?
I'll check you've got the fuel pipes on the right way round tonight when I get to the workshop where I think I have a fuel rail laying around.
How far from Milton Keynes are you?

Do you know what I never even thought about double checking which way the fuel lines are on. Mick I'll check mine shortly.

The pump's definitely running Beanie, and the fuel injection relay is clicking during the fuel pump prime so that appears to be working, the injectors are newly cleaned, so bar checking the fuel lines, there can't be that much left surely.

Mick, is it worth checking the fuel filter is fitted the right way round? Then again you've popped a line off and filled a bottle haven't you, so it must be flowing..

17th November 2014, 09:46

We cross referenced his fuel lines with mine and he definitely has it plumbed in the right way.

17th November 2014, 12:12

Fuel lines are the right way, fuel on the left of the rail, return on the right. I took the fuel line off and when I primed it filled a bottle pretty quick so it's getting fuel.

17th November 2014, 12:29

Have you checked the injectors are actually opening and spraying? Check the feed to the injectors?
There should be a constant 12v to one pin of each injector when the engine is cranking

17th November 2014, 12:38

I tested them when they came back from cleaning, got a good spray pattern from each one.

17th November 2014, 13:13

Yeah but do you have 12v to them?
They may be good injectors but without a feed to them they won't work

17th November 2014, 15:24

I've check them next and post results.

18th November 2014, 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickswan

I've check them next and post results.

If it was me I'd disconnect the coil pack, pull the fuel rail, place it on some cardboard and crank the engine.

Probably a long shot, but I remember from a VTS conversion a few years ago - the lad had his injectors cleaned by Injectortune but none of them were spraying. Turns out the cleaning fluid they use can sometimes jam the injectors shut when it evaporates. Tapping each injector with an extension was enough to sort them out.

18th November 2014, 16:29

Cheers Liam, already tested the injectors and getting a good spray.

18th November 2014, 21:05

You've slapped in a new set of spark plugs ye? And have you took the coilpack out, plug it in, put a spark plug in, earth the plug, then crank the engine to see if your 100% not getting a spark?

19th November 2014, 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by iSlayeR

You've slapped in a new set of spark plugs ye? And have you took the coilpack out, plug it in, put a spark plug in, earth the plug, then crank the engine to see if your 100% not getting a spark?

Getting spark

19th November 2014, 07:29

so you have spark? And you have fuel coming through the injectors when cranking it over?
can't really be much else if everything's there!
have you double checked the timing? Could be a few teeth out rather than 180 out ?
When you put it all back together you sure you put the cam shafts right way round ?

also try running it on abit of sniff and see how it runs on that ?

19th November 2014, 08:06

lets sort this easily --as reading through some of the posts is not inspiring
you say you have spark --OK
then get a gas blow torch --do not light it but open valve and let gas into air filter box --crank engine --if its got saprk and no fuel it will start and run on the gas

easiest way to tell and plugs do not get wet --if in any doubt about plugs fit new set or dry as below
so put plugs in oven and warm to make sure they are not damp down inside insulator which could cause tracking under pressure --fit to car and add gas --if it runs then you have a fuel supply or injector problem

19th November 2014, 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

lets sort this easily --as reading through some of the posts is not inspiring
you say you have spark --OK
then get a gas blow torch --do not light it but open valve and let gas into air filter box --crank engine --if its got saprk and no fuel it will start and run on the gas

easiest way to tell and plugs do not get wet --if in any doubt about plugs fit new set or dry as below
so put plugs in oven and warm to make sure they are not damp down inside insulator which could cause tracking under pressure --fit to car and add gas --if it runs then you have a fuel supply or injector problem

I'm getting spark and fuel as its honking of petrol. I think it's timing but not what I've said previously.

I'm going time it back up and see if it makes any difference (got nothing to loose).

Thanks for everyone's replies good and bad.

19th November 2014, 16:00

Just start from scratch again with the timing dude, can't really be owt else if its hot spark , fuel and compression

20th November 2014, 11:27

is this std ecu ?
ignnition can not be out of sync on std ecu
or are you meaning cam timing .
is it std cams ?-if os you cannot gte them in wrong way +tdc is tdc ,if youhave compresiion then they canm,t be that far out and you dhould still get a bang
only possiblility for std ecu to out is if you have fited a flywheel from a berlingo or picasso with the off set tdc
thee were sopme that used a dif g/box and the off set for tdcsensor was dif --
If its honking with fuel then for sure the plugs will be drowned down insode --so put them in the oven fro 10 mins at 200f to dry them oput --spin engine over with no plugs in it ,then fitplugs when warm and give it a go even if tming is wrong you should get a big bang

20th November 2014, 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

is this std ecu ?
ignnition can not be out of sync on std ecu
or are you meaning cam timing .
is it std cams ?-if os you cannot gte them in wrong way +tdc is tdc ,if youhave compresiion then they canm,t be that far out and you dhould still get a bang
only possiblility for std ecu to out is if you have fited a flywheel from a berlingo or picasso with the off set tdc
thee were sopme that used a dif g/box and the off set for tdcsensor was dif --
If its honking with fuel then for sure the plugs will be drowned down insode --so put them in the oven fro 10 mins at 200f to dry them oput --spin engine over with no plugs in it ,then fitplugs when warm and give it a go even if tming is wrong you should get a big bang

It's fitted with Cat Cam 743, but should still go as it should run in standard timing be it a bit lumpy.

I'm going to start from scratch again at the weekend and time it back up again and see if I went wrong any where.

Will dry the plugs out too, just to be in the safe side.

If I get no joy then standard cams will go back in.

20th November 2014, 19:21

I run 743's on standerd timing was fine, deffo wont be them.

21st November 2014, 08:21

check where the locating lugs on cams are --compare with std ones adn wherethe lobes point when cams are in same orinentation --maybe you have mixed up inlet =ex cams??

21st November 2014, 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

check where the locating lugs on cams are --compare with std ones adn wherethe lobes point when cams are in same orinentation --maybe you have mixed up inlet =ex cams??

Lugs are the same as standard, however your opposite cam theory is possible.

21st November 2014, 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickswan

Lugs are the same as standard, however your opposite cam theory is possible.

Mick I'm out today and away from my pics, but I have pictures of my cams and I have them marked as inlet and exhaust so I'll send you some for reference tomorrow morning if it helps, both out of and in the engine.

21st November 2014, 12:13

I had inlet cam 180° out first time i rebuilt my engine and i got same symptoms as you wouldn't fire but i had no compression at all untill i swapped it around, also my mate had an engine sat in his garage for a year and when he put it in the car the valves were sticking open because of the valve guides long shot but seems like everything has been suggested.

21st November 2014, 19:47

still no got this sorted mate?

if youve got good spark
and youve got good compression
and its not firing on easy start.. its gotta be a timing issue..the inlet/ex cam mixup could well be your reason

what was your compression test results?

21st November 2014, 20:42

170 compression but the testers older than me so I don't think much of it's accuracy. Should be more than enough to start with.

As I work days having the time at night when it's dark is a pisser. Only going to get tomorrow and that if it's not pissing down. Will piss about with the timing this weekend. Covers are all off so it shouldn't take long.

22nd November 2014, 17:24

Think I've sorted the timing out, going to put the belt back on tomorrow and we'll see

25th November 2014, 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickswan

Think I've sorted the timing out, going to put the belt back on tomorrow and we'll see

Fixed?

26th November 2014, 11:59

any joy with this mate? These kind of problems can be a pain in the arse

26th November 2014, 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyg_vts

Fixed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandi699

any joy with this mate? These kind of problems can be a pain in the arse

He scrapped it

29th November 2014, 12:57

Got it timed back up and tried to start it and low a behold it's exactly the same. Fucking pissing me right off I can tell you. Sounds like it wants to go as it coughs and splutters.

Really don't know where to go next.

Did notice what looked like a trickle of oil coming from the inlet but it's not got the consistency.

29th November 2014, 13:21

Well you know i's timed correctly now, so can tick that off the list

Double checked all the sensors with a multimeter?

29th November 2014, 14:28

So to re-cap

Getting a Spark (had a plug tester on and it's all go)
Getting fuel (had the injectors out to check the spray pattern)
Timing has been re-done
ECU is fine
Compression tested and getting 165 - 170 across all four

Really stuck now and really pissed off as it's clearly getting air, fuel and compression and a spark.

I'll get some new plugs in even though these ones are new just in case.

Sounds like it wants to go as previously said as it coughs and splutters a bit.

29th November 2014, 16:27

Crank sensor ok?

But I dont see how it wont start ifs sparking and fueling

29th November 2014, 16:52

I would check crank sensor too! And if that is ok also, then check the flywheel so there´s no missing tooth.

29th November 2014, 17:00

What's it do with a spray of easy start?

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29th November 2014, 18:13

Put a spanking new crank sensor on, I just think if it's getting spark and fuel it should run, even if it ran like shit.

1st December 2014, 08:01

flywheel not been changed?
how fats it cranking over --if you had bad earths etc the current to turn it over might drop voltage to coil +ecu so much that its not happy are the plugs wet when you take them out?

1st December 2014, 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

flywheel not been changed?
how fats it cranking over --if you had bad earths etc the current to turn it over might drop voltage to coil +ecu so much that its not happy are the plugs wet when you take them out?

Flywheel is the original not been touched and looked ok.

Plugs are wet with fuel when I take them out.

1st December 2014, 09:51

What's the 1st lambda sensor like?

1st December 2014, 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo67

What's the 1st lambda sensor like?

As in working or wetter than an otters pocket?

1st December 2014, 14:48

As in working?+try cranking it over without the lambda sensor fitted.

1st December 2014, 17:11

Was just thinking piss wet through with petrol. Will give it a go when I get home.

1st December 2014, 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

flywheel not been changed?
how fats it cranking over --if you had bad earths etc the current to turn it over might drop voltage to coil +ecu so much that its not happy are the plugs wet when you take them out?

How would I check how fat the spark is? Electrics are far from my strong point so a step mystep would help.

4th December 2014, 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickswan

How would I check how fat the spark is? Electrics are far from my strong point so a step mystep would help.

Doesn't matter, it would still run for a few seconds even with a shit spark.

Go by the colour, spark should be a nice bright "blue" colour.

If it's dim, orange/yellow then your plugs are duff, coil pack is duff, coil pack low voltage, bad earth, ecu drivers worn etc.

4th December 2014, 17:41

I'm going to get an auto electrician on it next week as I really don't have the time to be faffing about with it at the minute.

The guy I'm getting is quite recommended so he'll either sort it out or let me know if it's mechanical.

13th December 2014, 15:59

Update, still not running (fuck).

Blackbird picking it up Tuesday Morning to get it to an Auto Electric place I know. Guy there will go over the electrics. Hoping that should solve it. If not at least I'll know it'll be mechanical.

13th February 2015, 16:30

Just an update on this turns out the cams were the wrong way around!!

13th February 2015, 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickswan

Just an update on this turns out the cams were the wrong way around!!

You fucking idiot x

13th February 2015, 16:57

That's me, I had a 50/50 and was wrong!!

13th February 2015, 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickswan

That's me, I had a 50/50 and was wrong!!

You sound like a better version of Muz and I, depressingly.

13th February 2015, 17:17

Just remember the phrase, if it works it works!

13th February 2015, 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickswan

Just an update on this turns out the cams were the wrong way around!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali123

so you have spark? And you have fuel coming through the injectors when cranking it over?
can't really be much else if everything's there!
have you double checked the timing? Could be a few teeth out rather than 180 out ?
When you put it all back together you sure you put the cam shafts right way round ?
also try running it on abit of sniff and see how it runs on that ?

hmmmmm!

14th February 2015, 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali123

hmmmmm!

It was always at the back of my mind that it was wrong, but it was the most work to do and I had no time to do it.

I'll take a line from Wayne's world, I'm not worthy!

14th February 2015, 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickswan

Just an update on this turns out the cams were the wrong way around!!

12th March 2015, 05:26

Fair do's for admitting it. Glad it's working!