Recommendations for manifold 4-2-1 or 4-1 and upgrades

14th January 2017, 23:26

So having work carried out to car throughout this weekend funds coming in and deciding to put some more towards me saxo before starting another project off with an is200 I would like some info on where to go on manifolds brands makes and best overall gains. I was tempted to turbo or supercharge but seeing the costs involved to turbo is not good. Am looking to eventually get the same gains as turbo but without the instant boost and constant power that a turbo provides. What way would be best to go in terms of manifold. Am going to be in the future caming with maybe cat cams or PH3 still indecisive current. So back to topic lol

4-2-1 or 4-1? what you recommend?

15th January 2017, 11:33

Edwards mototsport.

wont be cheap, will be one of if not the best manifold you can get for a TU engine, mike has a few designs to suit different engine tune and has worked with sandy brown on some very high spec engines.

16th January 2017, 08:15

not wanting to upset you
but it is impossible by n/a tuning to get same power or even same spread of power over a wide range that you will get with boosting of any type .
start with target bhp +torque figure ,then at what rpm you want the power band to start+ max rpm you wish to use and then look at n/a power graphs
I suggest you do this before spending any money ,then you will know what you have to do to get what you want,or if you can have what you want

16th January 2017, 08:46

I've a janspeed 4-2-1 on my 1.3 8v and the fitment is terrible (And the lambda is in the wrong place...). No idea if it increased power or not, I doubt the 1-2bhp would be noticeable.

16th January 2017, 21:43

I've found that on most tuned engines the Maniflow works best, but exhausts are completely valve timing sensitive so one probably wouldn't work so well on a motor with mild cams.

But as John says, you won't get anywhere near the overall output from an NA engine as a boosted one.

16th January 2017, 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

not wanting to upset you
but it is impossible by n/a tuning to get same power or even same spread of power over a wide range that you will get with boosting of any type .
start with target bhp +torque figure ,then at what rpm you want the power band to start+ max rpm you wish to use and then look at n/a power graphs
I suggest you do this before spending any money ,then you will know what you have to do to get what you want,or if you can have what you want

Well my target is 150/200+ BHP or more depending on what ways to go or as close to. Power band round 3k I think is where mine is at now probs max is 5 to 6k rpm would like to be at or something good with a better 0 to 60s time and faster increase in MPH. Car is already producing 140+MPH done on rolling road but rpm is close to 7k so want to stay away from this and get more power less RPM maybe more speed if can go past 140MPH in a sax lol then take for some track days.

So far have had a full remap done and dyno runs and tunes.
Induction kit added and exhaust system done too but had to come off due to hanger snapping off so reverted back to scorpion system or something long them lines.
Standard BHP: was reading 118bhp / Standard Torque: 143nm
After a full days work tuning and so forth managed to get to
New BHP: 135
Torque New NM: 174

So 150 is not far off but still long way to get to once got to this then will consider going from 150 to 200 if can get to them figures with out turbo.

17th January 2017, 16:11

To alter the rpm/road speed, you need to change the gear box.
A Vtr box is longer - higher top speed, but you will loose acceleration.

200bhp na from a 1.6 would not be very user friendly/road legal/cheap/long living..

What's your budget?

17th January 2017, 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quick

To alter the rpm/road speed, you need to change the gear box.
A Vtr box is longer - higher top speed, but you will loose acceleration.

200bhp na from a 1.6 would not be very user friendly/road legal/cheap/long living..

What's your budget?

Well am wanting to be user friendly road legal and long living. I want to put more power into it faster acceleration but without much loss. And am not sure of the type gearbox in now as mid 2015 had gearbox fully rebuilt so dont really want to lose unless someone is after one as I know this is going to last for a while longer.

Am maybe thinking caming, bigger fuel injectors.

And budget wise I have £1k+ maybe to throw into it maybe more if the funds become available. Really wanted to turbo but is a hella expensive on kids and labor remaps and then some reading on it.

17th January 2017, 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quick

200bhp na from a 1.6 would not be very user friendly/road legal/long living..

BOLLOCKS.

200 is pretty mild really, look up JPsaxo, 236 bhp on an engine dyno, he drives it on the road, 40+ mpg, fully road legal.

not cheap granted.

17th January 2017, 22:36

It would be interesting to see how well the Edwards manifold works on a lightly tuned car. Its designed to work with their full exhaust system so its rather pricey for a road car.
The Supersprint is the best 'bolt on' i've seen and will fit to most aftermarket exhausts
https://www.kamracing.co.uk/car-tuni...-saxo-16v.html

17th January 2017, 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by welshpug

BOLLOCKS.

200 is pretty mild really, look up JPsaxo, 236 bhp on an engine dyno, he drives it on the road, 40+ mpg, fully road legal.

not cheap granted.

Just had a look over at JPsaxo that is one clean ass saxo and him getting a good 8:19 btg Nurburgring lap too Well am sure if he can do with his mods and gaining 236BHP and 40+ MPG is fair play too. I am lucky if I can pull 30 to 35MPG depending on how slow am driving lol

Gives me hope to maybe reaching my goals once got repairs done then tis the times to be buying and upgrading.

18th January 2017, 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by welshpug

BOLLOCKS.

200 is pretty mild really, look up JPsaxo, 236 bhp on an engine dyno, he drives it on the road, 40+ mpg, fully road legal.

not cheap granted.

not wanting to be too picky -- 200bhp by n/a tuning will never pass a REAL mot test for emissions and sod all power below 3500rpm--smooth if mapped right, but power will really start from 4-4500rpm to 7500rpm
cams required have too much overlap --
you want true big power+ wide power band + everyday use +mot pass --then its boost .
but 1k will not even get close to costs --
200bhp by n/a means will also be more expensive than 200bhp by boost

18th January 2017, 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamRacing

It would be interesting to see how well the Edwards manifold works on a lightly tuned car. Its designed to work with their full exhaust system so its rather pricey for a road car.

depends which one you get Kev, he has 3 or 4 designs.

18th January 2017, 10:21

I'd call that a pass.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...f1&oe=591916F9

19th January 2017, 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaCrazyOne

Well my target is 150/200+ BHP or more depending on what ways to go or as close to. Power band round 3k I think is where mine is at now probs max is 5 to 6k rpm would like to be at or something good with a better 0 to 60s time and faster increase in MPH. Car is already producing 140+MPH done on rolling road but rpm is close to 7k so want to stay away from this and get more power less RPM maybe more speed if can go past 140MPH in a sax lol then take for some track days.

So far have had a full remap done and dyno runs and tunes.
Induction kit added and exhaust system done too but had to come off due to hanger snapping off so reverted back to scorpion system or something long them lines.
Standard BHP: was reading 118bhp / Standard Torque: 143nm
After a full days work tuning and so forth managed to get to
New BHP: 135
Torque New NM: 174

So 150 is not far off but still long way to get to once got to this then will consider going from 150 to 200 if can get to them figures with out turbo.

A couple of things to point out here.

Firstly with regards to your target being 150-200+ bhp.

That's a MASSIVE window. And the work / cost / effort involved to get to either end of that spectrum is vastly different.

150bhp - you'll probably make that with a set of cams, good map and decent intake and exhaust mods......

200bhp is a whole lot less simple and a whole lot more expensive.

I'm with John on this one - if its big power you want, then boost is the most cost effective way to do it. Sadly, 'cost effective' however doesn't equate to 'cheap'.

I'd LOVE to supercharge mine, but to do it properly and upgrade everything it needs to take / manage that extra power - I've always said i'd need to set aside in the guts of £10k to do it.

Secondly, I wouldn't read too much in to the 'speed' which is obtained on a rolling road - that's totally misleading. With no wind / drag playing on the car it'll always make a higher speed on a dyno than on the road. Think about it - where can you run faster - on a treadmill in a gym, or on the road running in to a head wind?

A 140mph Saxo is entirely possible and in no way a silly claim - but don't use dyno speeds as a guide.

19th January 2017, 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by welshpug

I'd call that a pass.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...f1&oe=591916F9

i would say as usual you are trying to confuse things for people who do not know the law
those limtis shown are for a pre 1992 car not cat equipped

all saxo,s 106 cars need to be cat equipped for the MOT--so you are incorrect
mot emission specs are relative to age and engine type fitted to a vehicle not just age of vehicle --so any tu 5 engine must pass a cat equipped test --
thats why I said REAL mot

19th January 2017, 10:47

nope..

19th January 2017, 11:29

Quote:

(6) To find an exact match in the current emissions data book, you will need make and model and other data such as engine size, model code, engine code, VIN code or serial number. Appendix F of this manual gives more detail of where to find these codes.

If after normal cleaning and/or scraping processes a particular code is unreadable
or inaccessible , carry on as if no exact match can be found. If the flowchart leads to a non-catalyst test then carry out that test.

there you go.

19th January 2017, 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESD1711

A couple of things to point out here.

Firstly with regards to your target being 150-200+ bhp.

That's a MASSIVE window. And the work / cost / effort involved to get to either end of that spectrum is vastly different.

150bhp - you'll probably make that with a set of cams, good map and decent intake and exhaust mods......

200bhp is a whole lot less simple and a whole lot more expensive.

I'm with John on this one - if its big power you want, then boost is the most cost effective way to do it. Sadly, 'cost effective' however doesn't equate to 'cheap'.

I'd LOVE to supercharge mine, but to do it properly and upgrade everything it needs to take / manage that extra power - I've always said i'd need to set aside in the guts of £10k to do it.

Secondly, I wouldn't read too much in to the 'speed' which is obtained on a rolling road - that's totally misleading. With no wind / drag playing on the car it'll always make a higher speed on a dyno than on the road. Think about it - where can you run faster - on a treadmill in a gym, or on the road running in to a head wind?

A 140mph Saxo is entirely possible and in no way a silly claim - but don't use dyno speeds as a guide.

Am wanting to gain max n/a first and aim for 150BHPs area am currently at 130s so only another 20BPH to go.

So cams a good way to go ofr some gains, would also grabbing some up rated and bigger fuel injectors be wroth the while too compared to standard ones for spray n so forth? Also am I gonna need a new ECU for this or the stock good to go. Got lots work want to do on it just unsure on what way would be recommend and orders to up rated stuff without other things failing. Would it be worth me just slapping a stage 2 or stage 3 upgrade getting lot done at once via saving the pot cash get stage 2 or 3 done or would be be cost effective to do bit by bit?

20th January 2017, 08:44

sorry you are talking nonsense there has never been a saxo or 106 made that did not require a cat cos they did not make them prior to 1992,so all require a cat equipped test .
no point in carrying this on-
put car details in mot computer and it will come up as a cat test - end of

I know what regs you are mis- quoting to serve your purpose,and we come back to my first statement , it won,t pass a REAL mot test .
I don,t care how you bend the regs -- but don,t tell people incorrect information or try to make out I am wrong ,been mot testing ,since 1972 ,we had first roller brake tester equipped test station in scotland in 1977
If I remember the date correctly

20th January 2017, 12:18

I've passed the dreaded Northern Ireland (Government) MOT test three times in my 1996 106 Rallye with a 4 branch, no cat and a pugsport. As far as I know the MOT over here is a lot more difficult to pass (shaker machines, break testers, two emissions tests etc) They could have different parameters to the UK tests though.